|
If something isn't balanced right there is no accurate way to account for skill.
|
On January 10 2014 20:52 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:24 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 20:16 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 20:11 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:57 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 19:52 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV  EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots? If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM? That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively. One of the reasons it's so impressive to watch innovation or drg when they're on point is that they manage to do so much at once. Having an extra button to click when macroing is important, because it means pulling off everything else is that much harder to do. In any event, there isn't a single protoss player that really distinguishes himself from his peers via mechanical skill. The same isn't true for the other races at all. I disagree with the "on click matters because everything else is harder to do"-argument in general: e.g. spending 1000mins on zerglings simply means holding down a key yet equals 20apm. I am not saying apm isn't a factor to skill but it is a bad indicator. Also, I wasn't even considering pro lvl play. My sentiment to the apm/skill relationship is mostly based on the average sub gm player who equals high apm with skill. Starcraft is a game of managing resources. One of those resources is apm, or how much you can actually do. Arguing that making something harder doesn't affect the difficulty of other things is nonsensical. Not really. apm is not a limited resource in the sense that every one can only use 200 apm and after that his clicks won't count. Obviously there is a general physical APM limit to humans and a specific apm limit for every individual, yet again, I don't think that factors in most if any sc2 game sub pro lvl (i actually even doubt it at pro lvl) Also, not all APM is produced equally: my building zerglings example just shows that. You can also look at casting infested terrans for that matter: APM easily spikes to numbers above 600 in pro games when infested terrans are spammed. Does that make it hard to mass cast infested terrans? does it prevent the zerg from his usual macro tasks? Except your example of building zerglings doesn't show anything at all. If your making shit in the background then you cant be doing stuff in the foreground. How is it that hard to understand? If zerg and terran have to constantly be moving there army around then it becomes more difficult to find the time to do other stuff, which means that doing other stuff is harder. Dropping 50 infested terran eggs in an extremely short amount of time is difficult to do while microing your other units. Saying that you don't think something happens in a sub pro level means fuck all. When I played zerg 6 months ago finding the time to spread creep was insanely hard because I had to do a ton of other stuff. If i had another 50 apm and I could spread creep then that would directly influence my win rate. I just do not understand how you come to the conclusions that you have. Especially your example of pro level games, where people lose from being out multi tasked, out macrod etc so often. The creation of apm is irrelevant in so far of it being the equivalent of a time sink in game. If one race has to spend a significant amount less time the the other two then that accounts to difficulty.
The creation of apm is irrelevant? if I a player can produce 20 actions by hitting 1 key for a second that does very much so matter when you claim that more apm = more skill.
Also, I am talking about sub pro lvl. My short comment, that I think apm limits don't matter on a pro lvl, are with regard to the fact that pros don't hit their physical APM limit at all in sc2. Why do I think that? BW required more APM than sc2 and it was still playable, meaning that all the pros playing sc2 at lower APM have a lot of spare APM. Getting out played by impressive multitasking says nothing about the APM but your ability to handle multiple tasks at the same time and make good decisions on all fronts.
|
On January 10 2014 20:45 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:41 Qwerty85 wrote:On January 10 2014 20:40 RaFox17 wrote:On January 10 2014 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 10 2014 20:28 Liman wrote:
It seems that most of Terran players are imagining things.
TBH i dont believe those statistics he put up for TvP. He didn't put anything up that could pass as statistics in the academic world... he put up some percentages which he claims represent the win rate with the player skill factored out, but he never cared to explain how he obtained them... 99 percent of the stuff here would not pass that. Yeah but shouldn't we expect more from David Kim than your average TL or Bnet poster? The statistics themselves don't matter and neither does the complexity of said statistics. As long as Kim posts anything not indicating a Terran buff or a Protoss nerf as well as recognition for Depth of Micro, people will always bash what he's saying. If he were to write an essay on how Ladder statistics work, someone would get angry assuming he's trying to talk us down with fancy numbers and big words. Not that I wouldnt like more in-depth.
If the majority of the Terran forum population crying out for the removal of the Warhound because it was an A-move shitfest of a unit doesn't prove that there's more at stake here than ladder points, I don't know what ever will.
|
On January 10 2014 21:10 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:52 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 20:24 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 20:16 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 20:11 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:57 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 19:52 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots? If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM? That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively. One of the reasons it's so impressive to watch innovation or drg when they're on point is that they manage to do so much at once. Having an extra button to click when macroing is important, because it means pulling off everything else is that much harder to do. In any event, there isn't a single protoss player that really distinguishes himself from his peers via mechanical skill. The same isn't true for the other races at all. I disagree with the "on click matters because everything else is harder to do"-argument in general: e.g. spending 1000mins on zerglings simply means holding down a key yet equals 20apm. I am not saying apm isn't a factor to skill but it is a bad indicator. Also, I wasn't even considering pro lvl play. My sentiment to the apm/skill relationship is mostly based on the average sub gm player who equals high apm with skill. Starcraft is a game of managing resources. One of those resources is apm, or how much you can actually do. Arguing that making something harder doesn't affect the difficulty of other things is nonsensical. Not really. apm is not a limited resource in the sense that every one can only use 200 apm and after that his clicks won't count. Obviously there is a general physical APM limit to humans and a specific apm limit for every individual, yet again, I don't think that factors in most if any sc2 game sub pro lvl (i actually even doubt it at pro lvl) Also, not all APM is produced equally: my building zerglings example just shows that. You can also look at casting infested terrans for that matter: APM easily spikes to numbers above 600 in pro games when infested terrans are spammed. Does that make it hard to mass cast infested terrans? does it prevent the zerg from his usual macro tasks? Except your example of building zerglings doesn't show anything at all. If your making shit in the background then you cant be doing stuff in the foreground. How is it that hard to understand? If zerg and terran have to constantly be moving there army around then it becomes more difficult to find the time to do other stuff, which means that doing other stuff is harder. Dropping 50 infested terran eggs in an extremely short amount of time is difficult to do while microing your other units. Saying that you don't think something happens in a sub pro level means fuck all. When I played zerg 6 months ago finding the time to spread creep was insanely hard because I had to do a ton of other stuff. If i had another 50 apm and I could spread creep then that would directly influence my win rate. I just do not understand how you come to the conclusions that you have. Especially your example of pro level games, where people lose from being out multi tasked, out macrod etc so often. The creation of apm is irrelevant in so far of it being the equivalent of a time sink in game. If one race has to spend a significant amount less time the the other two then that accounts to difficulty. The creation of apm is irrelevant? if I a player can produce 20 actions by hitting 1 key for a second that does very much somatter when you claim that more apm = more skill. Also, I am talking about sub pro lvl. My short comment, that I think apm limits don't matter on a pro lvl are with regard to the fact that pros don't hit their physical APM limit at all in sc2. Why do I think that? BW required more APM than sc2 and it was still playable, meaning that all the pros playing sc2 at lower APM have a lot of spare APM. Getting out played by impressive multitasking says nothing about the APM but your ability to handle multiple tasks at the same time and make good decisions on all fronts.
People have extremely similar levels of eapm for both terran zerg compared to broodwar counterparts lol. And yes, having to hold down z for a second to produce zerglings is an important thing to do, else we'd have long since converted to auto macro.
And I've never claimed that more apm = more skill, I've claimed that a higher apm requirement = more difficulty, and that for one race to be significantly less demanding then the other two is frankly ridiculous.
It's also the biggest reason I think that toss is hands down the weakest race in the game.
|
On January 10 2014 21:06 frozzz wrote:
is he fucking serious? commenting balance winrate in bronze and then not putting gm stats and saying gm isnt relevant because its not pro level??:DDD
and yes,50% protoss in gm isnt big problem, not at all. so where are gm stats? the only way to show imbalance and the one(aside pro level) that is revelant,isnt there
Yea probably because it's all a big conspiracy at blizzard, they just want to keep terran down so and skew the statistics, just because they all favor protoss and want to see boring turtle games that don't require skill!
There's no way it might have something to do with GM having just opened, they just want to make you believe that!
|
On January 10 2014 21:12 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:10 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 20:52 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 20:24 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 20:16 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 20:11 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:57 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 19:52 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up.
Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong
Major
Jim (protoss)
Demuslim
SaSe
Naniwa
theognis
Ret
That is 3T, 3P, 1Z
LucifroN is 43% against koreans
Scarlett is 51.35%
Naniwa is 46.81%
And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans
Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots? If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM? That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively. One of the reasons it's so impressive to watch innovation or drg when they're on point is that they manage to do so much at once. Having an extra button to click when macroing is important, because it means pulling off everything else is that much harder to do. In any event, there isn't a single protoss player that really distinguishes himself from his peers via mechanical skill. The same isn't true for the other races at all. I disagree with the "on click matters because everything else is harder to do"-argument in general: e.g. spending 1000mins on zerglings simply means holding down a key yet equals 20apm. I am not saying apm isn't a factor to skill but it is a bad indicator. Also, I wasn't even considering pro lvl play. My sentiment to the apm/skill relationship is mostly based on the average sub gm player who equals high apm with skill. Starcraft is a game of managing resources. One of those resources is apm, or how much you can actually do. Arguing that making something harder doesn't affect the difficulty of other things is nonsensical. Not really. apm is not a limited resource in the sense that every one can only use 200 apm and after that his clicks won't count. Obviously there is a general physical APM limit to humans and a specific apm limit for every individual, yet again, I don't think that factors in most if any sc2 game sub pro lvl (i actually even doubt it at pro lvl) Also, not all APM is produced equally: my building zerglings example just shows that. You can also look at casting infested terrans for that matter: APM easily spikes to numbers above 600 in pro games when infested terrans are spammed. Does that make it hard to mass cast infested terrans? does it prevent the zerg from his usual macro tasks? Except your example of building zerglings doesn't show anything at all. If your making shit in the background then you cant be doing stuff in the foreground. How is it that hard to understand? If zerg and terran have to constantly be moving there army around then it becomes more difficult to find the time to do other stuff, which means that doing other stuff is harder. Dropping 50 infested terran eggs in an extremely short amount of time is difficult to do while microing your other units. Saying that you don't think something happens in a sub pro level means fuck all. When I played zerg 6 months ago finding the time to spread creep was insanely hard because I had to do a ton of other stuff. If i had another 50 apm and I could spread creep then that would directly influence my win rate. I just do not understand how you come to the conclusions that you have. Especially your example of pro level games, where people lose from being out multi tasked, out macrod etc so often. The creation of apm is irrelevant in so far of it being the equivalent of a time sink in game. If one race has to spend a significant amount less time the the other two then that accounts to difficulty. The creation of apm is irrelevant? if I a player can produce 20 actions by hitting 1 key for a second that does very much somatter when you claim that more apm = more skill. Also, I am talking about sub pro lvl. My short comment, that I think apm limits don't matter on a pro lvl are with regard to the fact that pros don't hit their physical APM limit at all in sc2. Why do I think that? BW required more APM than sc2 and it was still playable, meaning that all the pros playing sc2 at lower APM have a lot of spare APM. Getting out played by impressive multitasking says nothing about the APM but your ability to handle multiple tasks at the same time and make good decisions on all fronts. People have extremely similar levels of eapm for both terran zerg compared to broodwar counterparts lol. And yes, having to hold down z for a second to produce zerglings is an important thing to do, else we'd have long since converted to auto macro.
Alright, now it gets stupid. I am talking apm you are talkin epm. More importantly: I never said making Zerglings is not important. I am making a point that 20 actions produced by holding down 1 key for 1 second is a very different task from 20 actions created by microing a helion against a bunch of lings...
|
On January 10 2014 21:14 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:06 frozzz wrote:
is he fucking serious? commenting balance winrate in bronze and then not putting gm stats and saying gm isnt relevant because its not pro level??:DDD
and yes,50% protoss in gm isnt big problem, not at all. so where are gm stats? the only way to show imbalance and the one(aside pro level) that is revelant,isnt there
Yea probably because it's all a big conspiracy at blizzard, they just want to keep terran down so and skew the statistics, just because they all favor protoss and want to see boring turtle games that don't require skill! There's no way it might have something to do with GM having just opened, they just want to make you believe that!
your comment is pretty dumb when you look at gm stats since hots.
|
On January 10 2014 21:14 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:06 frozzz wrote:
is he fucking serious? commenting balance winrate in bronze and then not putting gm stats and saying gm isnt relevant because its not pro level??:DDD
and yes,50% protoss in gm isnt big problem, not at all. so where are gm stats? the only way to show imbalance and the one(aside pro level) that is revelant,isnt there
Yea probably because it's all a big conspiracy at blizzard, they just want to keep terran down so and skew the statistics, just because they all favor protoss and want to see boring turtle games that don't require skill! There's no way it might have something to do with GM having just opened, they just want to make you believe that!
Follow the money. Its really protoss players giving money to DK through a Swiss bank account. We got tired of being under powered and decided to take matters into our own hands.
Speaking of which, I need to make my monthly "Planetary Nexus" payment to the Lord-DK.
|
On January 10 2014 21:14 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:06 frozzz wrote:
is he fucking serious? commenting balance winrate in bronze and then not putting gm stats and saying gm isnt relevant because its not pro level??:DDD
and yes,50% protoss in gm isnt big problem, not at all. so where are gm stats? the only way to show imbalance and the one(aside pro level) that is revelant,isnt there
Yea probably because it's all a big conspiracy at blizzard, they just want to keep terran down so and skew the statistics, just because they all favor protoss and want to see boring turtle games that don't require skill! There's no way it might have something to do with GM having just opened, they just want to make you believe that!
They just don't want to admit they did things wrong.
Btw the GM problem is been there or a while now, not just this season.
|
Who gives a shit about percentages. Look at the damn games, and how nonsense protoss looks and feels. That's what's infuriating, not the %age of win on a ladder where you don't know the part of gimmicks and cheeses compared to straight up games.
|
On January 10 2014 21:18 Nimix wrote:
Who gives a shit about percentages. Look at the damn games, and how nonsense protoss looks and feels. That's what's infuriating, not the %age of win on a ladder where you don't know the part of gimmicks and cheeses compared to straight up games.
I know, I hate playing against gimmicks. They should get ride of my most hated gimmick....
The marine. Stupid crutch unit.
|
Really, DK shouldn't bother. This is no more about facts/numbers.
Regardless of the pro results or ladder numbers be they actually manipulated or not, all the whiners will always say that Protoss is imba. Nothing can be done once their minds are stubbornly set on the idea that they can't be wrong.
This is the price of a world with the Internet and social media : anybody including the unreasonnable ones can voice their opinion. I'm sure that if all these ways of communication were available in Brood War's time, people would have whined a lot too.
|
On January 10 2014 21:14 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:06 frozzz wrote:
is he fucking serious? commenting balance winrate in bronze and then not putting gm stats and saying gm isnt relevant because its not pro level??:DDD
and yes,50% protoss in gm isnt big problem, not at all. so where are gm stats? the only way to show imbalance and the one(aside pro level) that is revelant,isnt there
Yea probably because it's all a big conspiracy at blizzard, they just want to keep terran down so and skew the statistics, just because they all favor protoss and want to see boring turtle games that don't require skill! There's no way it might have something to do with GM having just opened, they just want to make you believe that!
Quite a strawman. Blizzard math guys obviously created bad formula for MMR decay so they are not incapable of making mistakes. DK is offering a vague explanation and shows some numbers but doesn't give any real info on how exactly did they get to those numbers.
Their explanation on MMR decay being an equivalent of losing a few games is also wrong, and anyone who plays ranked knows that.
So when you see numbers without any real explanation behind them why is person who is questioning those numbers automatically a fool that believes in Blizzard conspiracy?
|
On January 10 2014 21:24 PPN wrote:
Really, DK shouldn't bother. This is no more about facts/numbers.
Regardless of the pro results or ladder numbers be they actually manipulated or not, all the whiners will always say that Protoss is imba. Nothing can be done once their minds are stubbornly set on the idea that they can't be wrong.
This is the price of a world with the Internet and social media : anybody including the unreasonnable ones can voice their opinion. I'm sure that if all these ways of communication were available in Brood War's time, people would have whined a lot too.
the race who got a sad zealot fanclub qqing about the fear of nerf, it's quite delicious to witness.
|
On January 10 2014 21:18 Nimix wrote:
Who gives a shit about percentages. Look at the damn games, and how nonsense protoss looks and feels. That's what's infuriating, not the %age of win on a ladder where you don't know the part of gimmicks and cheeses compared to straight up games.
Noone gives a fuck about statistics, all that matters is your opinion about how "nonsense protoss looks and feels", and ofc gimmiks and cheeses are not part of the game, we should exclude all games where players use any kind of build exept for 3 nexus/3cc/3hatchery first from any statistics. That, and also your respectable opinion should be used to determine the most OP race from now and on.
|
Russian Federation125 Posts
On January 10 2014 21:14 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:06 frozzz wrote:
is he fucking serious? commenting balance winrate in bronze and then not putting gm stats and saying gm isnt relevant because its not pro level??:DDD
and yes,50% protoss in gm isnt big problem, not at all. so where are gm stats? the only way to show imbalance and the one(aside pro level) that is revelant,isnt there
Yea probably because it's all a big conspiracy at blizzard, they just want to keep terran down so and skew the statistics, just because they all favor protoss and want to see boring turtle games that don't require skill! There's no way it might have something to do with GM having just opened, they just want to make you believe that!
It can be much simplier. Blizz din't give a... thought about sc2 at least for now. Most of their team move to heroes of the storm and diablo projects. And they dont want to spend any recourses on any significant changes in sc2.
And kim does his best to convince us that everything is fine, balance is fine 20% of terrans in gml is fine, in bnet they tell us that there are 1rr people in bnet but according to sc2ranks there are only 130k etc etc...
And we won't see lotv till 2015.
How about such explanation? feels very realistic because main motivation here is money
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Just to show you, how the AMP is for one of those "low APM" players.
At the beginning of the game I don't go over 50. Why should I? Build a probe, do a location marks, where's the 50 actions? Why should I spam like a madman just to have 211515125125125 APM when I do nothing? I just spam e when the time is right to build a probe(I love how the muscle memory works  ). And this goes on and on, I just don't spam during my macro. Yeah, when I fight I have nearly 150 APM, warping units, casting storm, blinking stalkers, moving colossus etc. Though at the end I have 80 APM at the best(OK, OK, I don't count phoenix play against muta). Why more? There are even times, when I just look at the screen and do nothing even in midgame or lategame. Why? Supply block. Why should I spam buttons around when I can't do anything? I just do nothing at all since I can't warp anything in... OK, I hit chrono on my upgrades, so... 2 actions!!
Though when I see a replay and my highly skilled high APM opponents how they are spamming everything during supply block? Where's the difference? Both of us have supply block, but they have more APM so they are better? This is one of the reasons why I blocked messaging unless you are on my friend list 
Enjoy your rightful vengeance and please excuse me for disturbing you fights over APM, skill, DK and such things 
|
On January 10 2014 21:25 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:24 PPN wrote:
Really, DK shouldn't bother. This is no more about facts/numbers.
Regardless of the pro results or ladder numbers be they actually manipulated or not, all the whiners will always say that Protoss is imba. Nothing can be done once their minds are stubbornly set on the idea that they can't be wrong.
This is the price of a world with the Internet and social media : anybody including the unreasonnable ones can voice their opinion. I'm sure that if all these ways of communication were available in Brood War's time, people would have whined a lot too. the race who got a sad zealot fanclub qqing about the fear of nerf, it's quite delicious to witness.
What happens when they nerf us and you still lose? I almost welcome the nerf, but I know the terran whiners will just say "I wasn't enough, they still still just 60 APM over me. Well most like 30 AMP. Or 10 AMP. Look, I'm better, I play terran damn it."
|
On January 10 2014 21:25 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:24 PPN wrote:
Really, DK shouldn't bother. This is no more about facts/numbers.
Regardless of the pro results or ladder numbers be they actually manipulated or not, all the whiners will always say that Protoss is imba. Nothing can be done once their minds are stubbornly set on the idea that they can't be wrong.
This is the price of a world with the Internet and social media : anybody including the unreasonnable ones can voice their opinion. I'm sure that if all these ways of communication were available in Brood War's time, people would have whined a lot too. the race who got a sad zealot fanclub qqing about the fear of nerf, it's quite delicious to witness.
Sad Zealot fanclub is from the 1/1/1-era, in which it was sort of warranted. Also, it was a troll thing for fun, not some serious matter you can pull insults from 2 years later.
|
On January 10 2014 21:25 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 21:14 Zetter wrote:On January 10 2014 21:06 frozzz wrote:
is he fucking serious? commenting balance winrate in bronze and then not putting gm stats and saying gm isnt relevant because its not pro level??:DDD
and yes,50% protoss in gm isnt big problem, not at all. so where are gm stats? the only way to show imbalance and the one(aside pro level) that is revelant,isnt there
Yea probably because it's all a big conspiracy at blizzard, they just want to keep terran down so and skew the statistics, just because they all favor protoss and want to see boring turtle games that don't require skill! There's no way it might have something to do with GM having just opened, they just want to make you believe that! Quite a strawman. Blizzard math guys obviously created bad formula for MMR decay so they are not incapable of making mistakes. DK is offering a vague explanation and shows some numbers but doesn't give any real info on how exactly did they get to those numbers. Their explanation on MMR decay being an equivalent of losing a few games is also wrong, and anyone who plays ranked knows that. So when you see numbers without any real explanation behind them why is person who is questioning those numbers automatically a fool that believes in Blizzard conspiracy?
I'm sorry, I can't take anyone complaining about lack of GM data seriously, when GM has just been opened.
Edit: There may be reasonable complaints about the way the data was presented, but that post is not one of those. Also it should always be kept in mind that every statistic can (and should) be questioned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
