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On January 10 2014 20:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:29 Faust852 wrote:
Not giving raw statistic is plain wrong omg. I'm quite shocked to be honest, it shows only that Blizzard want to hide something. giving the raw statistics for ladder shouldn't show anything but close to 50-50 stats due to MMR works, right?
Not necessarily. We'll probably see a trend in which a race is lacking. At least giving same MMR statistics or I don't know, explaining how he got these.
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On January 10 2014 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:28 Liman wrote:
It seems that most of Terran players are imagining things.
TBH i dont believe those statistics he put up for TvP. He didn't put anything up that could pass as statistics in the academic world... he put up some percentages which he claims represent the win rate with the player skill factored out, but he never cared to explain how he obtained them...
99 percent of the stuff here would not pass that.
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On January 10 2014 20:40 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 10 2014 20:28 Liman wrote:
It seems that most of Terran players are imagining things.
TBH i dont believe those statistics he put up for TvP. He didn't put anything up that could pass as statistics in the academic world... he put up some percentages which he claims represent the win rate with the player skill factored out, but he never cared to explain how he obtained them... 99 percent of the stuff here would not pass that.
Yeah but shouldn't we expect more from David Kim than your average TL or Bnet poster?
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I feel so sorry for the people playing this game for a living
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Russian Federation125 Posts
So total protoss domintion in gml for the last half year isn't relivant because not enough data but this 1 week of proleage with 35games where noname noob toss lost because of new maps to top terran players like maru is enough excuse to not doing anything for another half year?
this double standarts are pissing me off >:|
and yeah this winrates look too pretty... How convinient to show us some winrates calculated by blizz so that no1 can realy check them. What a easy way to show us pretty winrates anytime you want
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On January 10 2014 20:41 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:40 RaFox17 wrote:On January 10 2014 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 10 2014 20:28 Liman wrote:
It seems that most of Terran players are imagining things.
TBH i dont believe those statistics he put up for TvP. He didn't put anything up that could pass as statistics in the academic world... he put up some percentages which he claims represent the win rate with the player skill factored out, but he never cared to explain how he obtained them... 99 percent of the stuff here would not pass that. Yeah but shouldn't we expect more from David Kim than your average TL or Bnet poster?
Yeap, but i doubt anything can convince some people as they trust their "feeling" beyond facts.
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On January 10 2014 20:42 aTnClouD wrote:
I feel so sorry for the people playing this game for a living
Aren't you one of those people though? O_o
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 10 2014 20:41 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:40 RaFox17 wrote:On January 10 2014 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 10 2014 20:28 Liman wrote:
It seems that most of Terran players are imagining things.
TBH i dont believe those statistics he put up for TvP. He didn't put anything up that could pass as statistics in the academic world... he put up some percentages which he claims represent the win rate with the player skill factored out, but he never cared to explain how he obtained them... 99 percent of the stuff here would not pass that. Yeah but shouldn't we expect more from David Kim than your average TL or Bnet poster?
The statistics themselves don't matter and neither does the complexity of said statistics. As long as Kim posts anything not indicating a Terran buff or a Protoss nerf as well as recognition for Depth of Micro, people will always bash what he's saying. If he were to write an essay on how Ladder statistics work, someone would get angry assuming he's trying to talk us down with fancy numbers and big words. Not that I wouldnt like more in-depth.
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On January 10 2014 20:44 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:42 aTnClouD wrote:
I feel so sorry for the people playing this game for a living Aren't you one of those people though? O_o
Cloud retired (a while ago)
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On January 10 2014 20:02 boxerfred wrote:
I will never ever post a huge post to a troll again. Please someone remind me on that, I feel I just wasted some lifetime.
Dont quote yourself in the future!
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In my world Blizzard recognize that the terrible terrible damage phylosophy was not that good and changes those units 
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On January 10 2014 20:45 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:41 Qwerty85 wrote:On January 10 2014 20:40 RaFox17 wrote:On January 10 2014 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote:On January 10 2014 20:28 Liman wrote:
It seems that most of Terran players are imagining things.
TBH i dont believe those statistics he put up for TvP. He didn't put anything up that could pass as statistics in the academic world... he put up some percentages which he claims represent the win rate with the player skill factored out, but he never cared to explain how he obtained them... 99 percent of the stuff here would not pass that. Yeah but shouldn't we expect more from David Kim than your average TL or Bnet poster? The statistics themselves don't matter and neither does the complexity of said statistics. As long as Kim posts anything not indicating a Terran buff or a Protoss nerf as well as recognition for Depth of Micro, people will always bash what he's saying. If he were to write an essay on how Ladder statistics work, someone would get angry assuming he's trying to talk us down with fancy numbers and big words. Not that I wouldnt like more in-depth.
It's unfair that he only posts data when it seems favorable to Blizzard though. Maybe the balance happened to be really good this week? I don't really trust the data he presents.
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On January 10 2014 20:24 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:16 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 20:11 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:57 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 19:52 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV  EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots? If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM? That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively. One of the reasons it's so impressive to watch innovation or drg when they're on point is that they manage to do so much at once. Having an extra button to click when macroing is important, because it means pulling off everything else is that much harder to do. In any event, there isn't a single protoss player that really distinguishes himself from his peers via mechanical skill. The same isn't true for the other races at all. I disagree with the "on click matters because everything else is harder to do"-argument in general: e.g. spending 1000mins on zerglings simply means holding down a key yet equals 20apm. I am not saying apm isn't a factor to skill but it is a bad indicator. Also, I wasn't even considering pro lvl play. My sentiment to the apm/skill relationship is mostly based on the average sub gm player who equals high apm with skill. Starcraft is a game of managing resources. One of those resources is apm, or how much you can actually do. Arguing that making something harder doesn't affect the difficulty of other things is nonsensical. Not really. apm is not a limited resource in the sense that every one can only use 200 apm and after that his clicks won't count. Obviously there is a general physical APM limit to humans and a specific apm limit for every individual, yet again, I don't think that factors in most if any sc2 game sub pro lvl (i actually even doubt it at pro lvl) Also, not all APM is produced equally: my building zerglings example just shows that. You can also look at casting infested terrans for that matter: APM easily spikes to numbers above 600 in pro games when infested terrans are spammed. Does that make it hard to mass cast infested terrans? does it prevent the zerg from his usual macro tasks?
Except your example of building zerglings doesn't show anything at all. If your making shit in the background then you cant be doing stuff in the foreground. How is it that hard to understand? If zerg and terran have to constantly be moving there army around then it becomes more difficult to find the time to do other stuff, which means that doing other stuff is harder. Dropping 50 infested terran eggs in an extremely short amount of time is difficult to do while microing your other units. Saying that you don't think something happens in a sub pro level means fuck all. When I played zerg 6 months ago finding the time to spread creep was insanely hard because I had to do a ton of other stuff. If i had another 50 apm and I could spread creep then that would directly influence my win rate.
I just do not understand how you come to the conclusions that you have. Especially your example of pro level games, where people lose from being out multi tasked, out macrod etc so often.
The creation of apm is irrelevant in so far of it being the equivalent of a time sink in game. If one race has to spend a significant amount less time the the other two then that accounts to difficulty.
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On January 10 2014 19:20 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:15 RaFox17 wrote:On January 10 2014 19:13 MiCroLiFe wrote:On January 10 2014 19:05 dohgg wrote:
In serious note, and many pros terran claimed that same... TvP in general unit and balance compostion is quite balanced. the real issue that give prottos the edge is the variety of their game, and the variety of different defenses terran need to get.
if you put two players, one terran and one prottos at equal skill level, and you gonna tell them to play standard and honest a nice macro game.. there will never be a balanced issue.
there must be some kind of a bigger commitment for prottos cheeses or a wider options of scouting in insured way for terrans (or both). there is a balance issue if the player are equally skilled man. The terran must do so much more in engagements, macro, micro to have the chance to actually win. we must use TIER 1 unit whole game... if terran are lucky, its an even trade whit alot of gateway units + some colosus and some templars/archpns. but in late game protss have ALOT OF colosus, ALOT of archons and ALOT OF TEMPLARs. which are really really strong, and a terran whit equally skill Does not have a chance. You shout a lot of things without any proper evidence. We get it that you are frustrated that you loose while being the better player. its from experience, while checking every toss apm and replays after a lose.. + i have tried toss myself some times and its really easy to micro the toss deathball compared to the terran army.. you can also put Forcefields down.. that makes EVEN the best Terrran in the world, useless cause hes trapped. only thing he can do is try to save some units whit medivacs and retreat.. ive seen ONLY one time, a terran actually had a godlike unit control that counters the colosus double shots. it was a recent tvp whit MARU, which splittet so insanely good and the colosus hit just One marine at the game, he stil lose the engagement tho.. yEAH i totally agree i can be a little BIAS and shout many things.. but i am 100% sure that Terrans in master/dia do agree whit me on most of theese points ive made
Not at all. Forcefields for example are totally fine, can't say i've seen another terran complain about them for years (apart from the games where a terran has like 5 bunkers and dies to some silly sentry allin where the protoss players are like "he'
d be fine if he had ONE more bunker!). It is very hard to control the terran army in the very late game, it's true, I often fail, but my micro isn't the best.. so I can't exactly expect to win in this situation with Terran, as it is very micro dependent late game.
Only thing that pisses me off is all the early game bullshit they can do. For the most part, you're being totally unreasonable.
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[/QUOTE]
Except your example of building zerglings doesn't show anything at all. If your making shit in the background then you cant be doing stuff in the foreground. How is it that hard to understand? If zerg and terran have to constantly be moving there army around then it becomes more difficult to find the time to do other stuff, which means that doing other stuff is harder. Dropping 50 infested terran eggs in an extremely short amount of time is difficult to do while microing your other units. Saying that you don't think something happens in a sub pro level means fuck all. When I played zerg 6 months ago finding the time to spread creep was insanely hard because I had to do a ton of other stuff. If i had another 50 apm and I could spread creep then that would directly influence my win rate.
I just do not understand how you come to the conclusions that you have. Especially your example of pro level games, where people lose from being out multi tasked, out macrod etc so often.
The creation of apm is irrelevant in so far of it being the equivalent of a time sink in game. If one race has to spend a significant amount less time the the other two then that accounts to difficulty.[/QUOTE]
Good post
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On January 10 2014 20:55 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:20 MiCroLiFe wrote:On January 10 2014 19:15 RaFox17 wrote:On January 10 2014 19:13 MiCroLiFe wrote:On January 10 2014 19:05 dohgg wrote:
In serious note, and many pros terran claimed that same... TvP in general unit and balance compostion is quite balanced. the real issue that give prottos the edge is the variety of their game, and the variety of different defenses terran need to get.
if you put two players, one terran and one prottos at equal skill level, and you gonna tell them to play standard and honest a nice macro game.. there will never be a balanced issue.
there must be some kind of a bigger commitment for prottos cheeses or a wider options of scouting in insured way for terrans (or both). there is a balance issue if the player are equally skilled man. The terran must do so much more in engagements, macro, micro to have the chance to actually win. we must use TIER 1 unit whole game... if terran are lucky, its an even trade whit alot of gateway units + some colosus and some templars/archpns. but in late game protss have ALOT OF colosus, ALOT of archons and ALOT OF TEMPLARs. which are really really strong, and a terran whit equally skill Does not have a chance. You shout a lot of things without any proper evidence. We get it that you are frustrated that you loose while being the better player. its from experience, while checking every toss apm and replays after a lose.. + i have tried toss myself some times and its really easy to micro the toss deathball compared to the terran army.. you can also put Forcefields down.. that makes EVEN the best Terrran in the world, useless cause hes trapped. only thing he can do is try to save some units whit medivacs and retreat.. ive seen ONLY one time, a terran actually had a godlike unit control that counters the colosus double shots. it was a recent tvp whit MARU, which splittet so insanely good and the colosus hit just One marine at the game, he stil lose the engagement tho.. yEAH i totally agree i can be a little BIAS and shout many things.. but i am 100% sure that Terrans in master/dia do agree whit me on most of theese points ive made Not at all. Forcefields for example are totally fine, can't say i've seen another terran complain about them for years. It is very hard to control the terran army in the very late game, it's true, I often fail, but my micro isn't the best.. so I can't exactly expect to win with brittle yet high DPS units. Only thing that pisses me off on is all the early game bullshit they can do.
Forcefields are the perfect example of band aid solutions that are thrown out in this game. They're not fine in the slightest, and we should be outraged that after 3 years pvz in the early game is still balanced around them.
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On January 10 2014 20:55 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:20 MiCroLiFe wrote:On January 10 2014 19:15 RaFox17 wrote:On January 10 2014 19:13 MiCroLiFe wrote:On January 10 2014 19:05 dohgg wrote:
In serious note, and many pros terran claimed that same... TvP in general unit and balance compostion is quite balanced. the real issue that give prottos the edge is the variety of their game, and the variety of different defenses terran need to get.
if you put two players, one terran and one prottos at equal skill level, and you gonna tell them to play standard and honest a nice macro game.. there will never be a balanced issue.
there must be some kind of a bigger commitment for prottos cheeses or a wider options of scouting in insured way for terrans (or both). there is a balance issue if the player are equally skilled man. The terran must do so much more in engagements, macro, micro to have the chance to actually win. we must use TIER 1 unit whole game... if terran are lucky, its an even trade whit alot of gateway units + some colosus and some templars/archpns. but in late game protss have ALOT OF colosus, ALOT of archons and ALOT OF TEMPLARs. which are really really strong, and a terran whit equally skill Does not have a chance. You shout a lot of things without any proper evidence. We get it that you are frustrated that you loose while being the better player. its from experience, while checking every toss apm and replays after a lose.. + i have tried toss myself some times and its really easy to micro the toss deathball compared to the terran army.. you can also put Forcefields down.. that makes EVEN the best Terrran in the world, useless cause hes trapped. only thing he can do is try to save some units whit medivacs and retreat.. ive seen ONLY one time, a terran actually had a godlike unit control that counters the colosus double shots. it was a recent tvp whit MARU, which splittet so insanely good and the colosus hit just One marine at the game, he stil lose the engagement tho.. yEAH i totally agree i can be a little BIAS and shout many things.. but i am 100% sure that Terrans in master/dia do agree whit me on most of theese points ive made Not at all. Forcefields for example are totally fine, can't say i've seen another terran complain about them for years (apart from the games where a terran has like 5 bunkers and dies to some silly sentry allin where the protoss players are like "he' d be fine if he had ONE more bunker!). It is very hard to control the terran army in the very late game, it's true, I often fail, but my micro isn't the best.. so I can't exactly expect to win in this situation with Terran, as it is very micro dependent late game. Only thing that pisses me off is all the early game bullshit they can do. For the most part, you're being totally unreasonable.
What of my statements do you not agreed on there?
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On January 10 2014 20:57 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:55 AxionSteel wrote:On January 10 2014 19:20 MiCroLiFe wrote:On January 10 2014 19:15 RaFox17 wrote:On January 10 2014 19:13 MiCroLiFe wrote:On January 10 2014 19:05 dohgg wrote:
In serious note, and many pros terran claimed that same... TvP in general unit and balance compostion is quite balanced. the real issue that give prottos the edge is the variety of their game, and the variety of different defenses terran need to get.
if you put two players, one terran and one prottos at equal skill level, and you gonna tell them to play standard and honest a nice macro game.. there will never be a balanced issue.
there must be some kind of a bigger commitment for prottos cheeses or a wider options of scouting in insured way for terrans (or both). there is a balance issue if the player are equally skilled man. The terran must do so much more in engagements, macro, micro to have the chance to actually win. we must use TIER 1 unit whole game... if terran are lucky, its an even trade whit alot of gateway units + some colosus and some templars/archpns. but in late game protss have ALOT OF colosus, ALOT of archons and ALOT OF TEMPLARs. which are really really strong, and a terran whit equally skill Does not have a chance. You shout a lot of things without any proper evidence. We get it that you are frustrated that you loose while being the better player. its from experience, while checking every toss apm and replays after a lose.. + i have tried toss myself some times and its really easy to micro the toss deathball compared to the terran army.. you can also put Forcefields down.. that makes EVEN the best Terrran in the world, useless cause hes trapped. only thing he can do is try to save some units whit medivacs and retreat.. ive seen ONLY one time, a terran actually had a godlike unit control that counters the colosus double shots. it was a recent tvp whit MARU, which splittet so insanely good and the colosus hit just One marine at the game, he stil lose the engagement tho.. yEAH i totally agree i can be a little BIAS and shout many things.. but i am 100% sure that Terrans in master/dia do agree whit me on most of theese points ive made Not at all. Forcefields for example are totally fine, can't say i've seen another terran complain about them for years. It is very hard to control the terran army in the very late game, it's true, I often fail, but my micro isn't the best.. so I can't exactly expect to win with brittle yet high DPS units. Only thing that pisses me off on is all the early game bullshit they can do. Forcefields are the perfect example of band aid solutions that are thrown out in this game. They're not fine in the slightest, and we should be outraged that after 3 years pvz in the early game is still balanced around them.
I was talking from a TvP balance standpoint, nothing was mentioned about zerg.
I agree with you though.
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On January 10 2014 20:44 dargul wrote:
So total protoss domintion in gml for the last half year isn't relivant because not enough data but this 1 week of proleage with 35games where noname noob toss lost because of new maps to top terran players like maru is enough excuse to not doing anything for another half year?
this double standarts are pissing me off >:|
and yeah this winrates look too pretty... How convinient to show us some winrates calculated by blizz so that no1 can realy check them. What a easy way to show us pretty winrates anytime you want
Ye, ofc, blizzard, announced fake numbers in order to remain Protoss op as hell. Some nonames (herO and Creator) lost to godlike Terrans (on that shitty new Frost map). i'm sure they did that on purpose because they didn't want to show their race full potential so they won't be nerfed, nah i got a better idea: DK actually called them and asked to lose, so wooden league terrans would stfu at last, and actually Rain was going to lose with his blink build, even "forgot" to start a blink research but still won (what a pity, even perfect plans fail sometimes), he would be fined for that anywayz.
That's all true don't worry. Not the fact you are just bad, no ofc not. You can't be bad don't even try to doubt it. Believe in yourself. You are the best terran world has ever seen. That's what your mom keeps telling you right?
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is he fucking serious? commenting balance winrate in bronze and then not putting gm stats and saying gm isnt relevant because its not pro level??:DDD
and yes,50% protoss in gm isnt big problem, not at all. so where are gm stats? the only way to show imbalance and the one(aside pro level) that is revelant,isnt there
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