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I like how people expect the whiners to shut up based on the post of David Kim, while the post of David Kim contains no sensible information at all. "win percentages with player skill factored out" sounds nice, but I'm not about to take his word at face value and as long as he doesn't explain the math involved in those percentages, I cannot take them seriously.
And these are the words of somebody who believes that the game is balanced, mind you.
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On January 10 2014 19:35 Noocta wrote:
I couldn't care less about winrates if only the game was entertaining.
I agree with this.
I wander what exactly is DK's job. Because if he is judged simply on how the win % look, then obviously he would be extremely reluctant to make any changes that could disrupt that, regardless of how the game is played out. This would explain why we had to endure 7 months of BL/Infestor, why they have done fuck all to fix mech in the last few months, etc.
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On January 10 2014 19:35 blarkh wrote:
Let's not forget that playing Terran it's insanely easy to get really high apm because you're constantly building things. This requires no looking away, very little training, and nearly no thought at all. The fact that Protoss don't need to do this makes their APM requirement much lower without really making it easier to play them. (Because everyone can keep up producing stuff as a Terran even while pushing/dropping).
Protoss does require lower APM, yes, but I don't agree with the rest of your post. Not everyone can keep their production up while pushing/dropping, especially not while splitting marines/hitting EMPs, etc. Mechanical difficulty is definitely part of the overall difficulty of a race, and saying that Terran needs to do more stuff but isn't any harder to play seems like a simplification. There are other things that are harder to as Protoss compared to Terran as well, of course (caster management, for the most part), but please don't trivialize Terran macro by saying everyone can do it while keeping track of being aggressive as well.
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[/QUOTE]
So, if there's 20 protosses and the race is imba, and they get killed by 5 terrans and 5 zergs in 15 out of 16 cases. what does that tell us? Swarm hosts are harder for terran since terran does not have Immortals? Are you sure with saying that? I mean, it's not like you can drop on them, have some tanks, use your freakin' mobility and stuff... Yeah, you're right, who did Maru play? Another high-tier korean protoss? Gosh, please. Shut up. I was so kind and nice and trying to have a conversation/argument about racial balance and design, but you're all the way like "HEY MODS PLEASE WARN ME FOR BALANCE WHINE". So, I won't stop you. [/QUOTE]
But maru is proboly the absoulte best terran atm? ALL the players in proleague are top tier.
tanks are not viable in tvz anymore.. ppl go for MMMM.
use warm prism and drop immortal on the swarm host ? target fire? while your other army back off, letting the locust go after them? When hellbat was *ok* i use to drop hellbats on them, and lift up when locus was about to spawn again..
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On January 10 2014 19:34 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 13:23 stuchiu wrote:
I thought we went over this with WoL. Just because PvZ was around a 50% winrate in a matchup, that didn't mean something wasn't wrong with the matchup. Yet "something being wrong with the matchup" is NOT the same as "game is imbalanced" which is what people keep crying about.
ITT: different people have different definitions of "balance."
When TL mods create a "Designated Game Design Thread" and DK starts throwing "game design" like a buzzword every time he talks about mech, or promoting Roach burrow movement, or promoting Oracle "macro" use, or any of the other thousand and one thing the Blizzard Balance Team does that aren't actually Balance, then there'll be a point to your semantic distinction.
Until then, you can contribute to the conversation or not, but don't disregard legitimate conversation about the state of the game (and DK's failure to address them) by saying "the winrates are 50-50" as if that is somehow the answer to all of our prayers. Nobody cares. Winrates tell half of the story at most.
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On January 10 2014 19:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:35 Noocta wrote:
I couldn't care less about winrates if only the game was entertaining. I agree with this. I wander what exactly is DK's job. Because if he is judged simply on how the win % look, then obviously he would be extremely reluctant to make any changes that could disrupt that, regardless of how the game is played out. This would explain why we had to endure 7 months of BL/Infestor, why they have done fuck all to fix mech in the last few months, etc.
Win rates were not even during the BL/Infestor era, so no. Also, things have been done to fix mech; merged upgrades, slight siege tank buff, etc. Perhaps it hasn't been enough, but it's an exaggeration to say nothing has been done.
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Balance is as good as it has ever been IMO, David Kim please don't fall to popular opinion and assess the statistics objectively!
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Even when the game is balance (i think it's the real stats) and the Terrans can wins (look at Proleague), the terran players continue to whine (with arrogance and aggressiveness).
It's seems that the only situation that a terran player can tolerate is when his race is totally imba (beginning of Wol or Hots).
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On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV  EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation.
In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots?
If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM?
That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively.
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On January 10 2014 19:43 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:35 blarkh wrote:
Let's not forget that playing Terran it's insanely easy to get really high apm because you're constantly building things. This requires no looking away, very little training, and nearly no thought at all. The fact that Protoss don't need to do this makes their APM requirement much lower without really making it easier to play them. (Because everyone can keep up producing stuff as a Terran even while pushing/dropping). Protoss does require lower APM, yes, but I don't agree with the rest of your post. Not everyone can keep their production up while pushing/dropping, especially not while splitting marines/hitting EMPs, etc. Mechanical difficulty is definitely part of the overall difficulty of a race, and saying that Terran needs to do more stuff but isn't any harder to play seems like a simplification. There are other things that are harder to as Protoss compared to Terran as well, of course (caster management, for the most part), but please don't trivialize Terran macro by saying everyone can do it while keeping track of being aggressive as well.
I should have been more clear: Protoss have lower APM because they need lower APM. For example, Protoss build fewer units, so they have to use less klicks for building units. Therefore, without spamming that much more, Protoss won't ever have as many APM as Terrans, and so APM over the course of a game suck as a means of measuring their skill. To say that Protoss don't need high APM at specific times would be stupid in times of blink stalker all-in.
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I think here are a few concepts wrong, play Protoss isn't more harder than play a Terran on all areas, the problem is when the engage comes. In battle Protoss is a lot easy and effective than a Terran army, the Terran player have to do a lot of things pre-battle and on battle.
In pro levels players can solve this difference cause they reach skillcap for they race. If u pick 2 players from gold for example, with exactly the same skill, on every engage the protoss will win with less stress.
Imagine the coloss range was not passive skill or the charge of zealots needs to be activated, then the protoss need to do more things than throw a death ball and pick some hits withs storms. Is like Marauder's Concussive Shells, it's a nice skill and so powerfull but i don't need to do nothing, the system do by himself everytime i att, more automatic skills, less skill requiered.
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On January 10 2014 19:45 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 10 2014 19:35 Noocta wrote:
I couldn't care less about winrates if only the game was entertaining. I agree with this. I wander what exactly is DK's job. Because if he is judged simply on how the win % look, then obviously he would be extremely reluctant to make any changes that could disrupt that, regardless of how the game is played out. This would explain why we had to endure 7 months of BL/Infestor, why they have done fuck all to fix mech in the last few months, etc. Win rates were not even during the BL/Infestor era, so no.
No what? He couldn't even keep win% even or what? The stats they talked about back then showed relative balance. Whether we believe in their stats or not...
Also, things have been done to fix mech; merged upgrades, slight siege tank buff, etc. Perhaps it hasn't been enough, but it's an exaggeration to say nothing has been done.
Yes, an exaggeration. I should have said nothing that would ever make a difference.
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On January 10 2014 19:50 Wertheron wrote:
Even when the game is balance (i think it's the real stats) and the Terrans can wins (look at Proleague), the terran players continue to whine (with arrogance and aggressiveness).
It's seems that the only situation that a terran player can tolerate is when his race is totally imba (beginning of Wol or Hots).
MC has earned the most money in SC2, yet Protoss players have been crying since WoL...
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On January 10 2014 19:52 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots? If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM? That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively.
One of the reasons it's so impressive to watch innovation or drg when they're on point is that they manage to do so much at once. Having an extra button to click when macroing is important, because it means pulling off everything else is that much harder to do.
In any event, there isn't a single protoss player that really distinguishes himself from his peers via mechanical skill. The same isn't true for the other races at all.
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I will never ever post a huge post to a troll again. Please someone remind me on that, I feel I just wasted some lifetime.
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On January 10 2014 12:06 Zanzabarr wrote:
Protoss has been savagely brutalized this week in proleague..... they went 1-15 in non mirrors in a best of 1 format.... the supposedly strongest format for protoss. To all the non-pro players out there.... no... your perceived strength of protoss isn't holding you back... you are. I'm pretty sure 80%+ of the player base doesn't use their army mobility advantage properly, if at all, and go through this three step magical process.
1) A-move mobile army
2) Take bad engagement and lose said engagement
3) Cry imbalance and demand buffs/nerfs
Well here are to three magic steps for protoss
1) A-move mobile army
2) Take bad engagement and still win said engagement
3) Pretend balance and cross fingers there won't be nerfs.
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On January 10 2014 19:40 JustPassingBy wrote:
I like how people expect the whiners to shut up based on the post of David Kim, while the post of David Kim contains no sensible information at all. "win percentages with player skill factored out" sounds nice, but I'm not about to take his word at face value and as long as he doesn't explain the math involved in those percentages, I cannot take them seriously.
And these are the words of somebody who believes that the game is balanced, mind you.
This. I am also very interestered in learning how Blizzard takes skill into account. Because the only way they can explain why terran is so poorly represented in higher leagues would be by factoring in that the average terran player is less skilled than the average protoss player. I am really intered in learning how they get to that conclusion. Please enlighten us David Kim.
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On January 10 2014 19:54 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:45 RaZorwire wrote:On January 10 2014 19:41 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 10 2014 19:35 Noocta wrote:
I couldn't care less about winrates if only the game was entertaining. I agree with this. I wander what exactly is DK's job. Because if he is judged simply on how the win % look, then obviously he would be extremely reluctant to make any changes that could disrupt that, regardless of how the game is played out. This would explain why we had to endure 7 months of BL/Infestor, why they have done fuck all to fix mech in the last few months, etc. Win rates were not even during the BL/Infestor era, so no. No what? He couldn't even keep win% even or what? The stats they talked about back then showed relative balance. Whether we believe in their stats or not... Show nested quote +Also, things have been done to fix mech; merged upgrades, slight siege tank buff, etc. Perhaps it hasn't been enough, but it's an exaggeration to say nothing has been done.
Yes, an exaggeration. I should have said nothing that would ever make a difference.
According to Aligulac, Zerg was favored vs Terran for the the whole BL/Infestor-era;
http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/
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On January 10 2014 20:06 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:40 JustPassingBy wrote:
I like how people expect the whiners to shut up based on the post of David Kim, while the post of David Kim contains no sensible information at all. "win percentages with player skill factored out" sounds nice, but I'm not about to take his word at face value and as long as he doesn't explain the math involved in those percentages, I cannot take them seriously.
And these are the words of somebody who believes that the game is balanced, mind you. This. I am also very interestered in learning how Blizzard takes skill into account. Because the only way they can explain why terran is so poorly represented in higher leagues would be by factoring in that the average terran player is less skilled than the average protoss player. I am really intered in learning how they get to that conclusion. Please enlighten us David Kim.
Maybe they believe like the average protoss user that mechanical skill is not actually skill. Therefor if protoss is less demanding its obviously the smarter choice to pick it. Seems a pretty safe bet that the more intelligent someone is the more skillful they are.
Pretty sound logic in my opinion.
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On January 10 2014 19:57 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:52 tar wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. In my experience apm scales with the demand there is to use actions. just because a toss only uses 100 apm doesn't mean he is less skilled. I am not even sure if it means that playing terran or zerg is harder due to this. A very simple example: to spend 100 mins on a zealot you need 2 actions (select gateway, click zealot) to spend 100 minerals on marines u need at least 3 actions (given a barracks with an reactor: select building, click marine 2 times). Does that mean building marines takes more skill than building zealots? If a terran plays mech instead of BIO and his apm drop from 180 to 120, does that mean he is less skilled when he plays mech or that there is simply less demand to use APM? That's why in my opinion apm is a bad indicator to judge one's overall skill, more so considering that alot of ppl spam apm due to bad habits and actually fail to use them effectively. One of the reasons it's so impressive to watch innovation or drg when they're on point is that they manage to do so much at once. Having an extra button to click when macroing is important, because it means pulling off everything else is that much harder to do. In any event, there isn't a single protoss player that really distinguishes himself from his peers via mechanical skill. The same isn't true for the other races at all.
I disagree with the "on click matters because everything else is harder to do"-argument in general: e.g. spending 1000mins on zerglings simply means holding down a key yet equals 20apm. I am not saying apm isn't a factor to skill but it is a bad indicator. Also, I wasn't even considering pro lvl play. My sentiment to the apm/skill relationship is mostly based on the average sub gm player who equals high apm with skill.
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