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On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV  EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/
Your post feels like you're simply pissed about the game's mechanics and racial balance. BUT, instead of raging on you and blaming you for flame, let me answer in a appropriate, explanatory way (TL Strategies recruit me soon  )
Larva vs. Warpin vs. Queue production are simply different ways of being able to macro. A protoss with 8 gates on 3 bases will probably gather lots of overmins, also, if the warpin pylon is far out on the map or got killed (or the guy was just too lazy to build it), he will have a clear disadvantage. Same for zerg, if larva inject is not on time (which is really hard to do on a not m/gm level) while being pressured with a parade push, you're simply running out of defense units. Same for terran, if terran, while parading, misses his macro and doesn't use his buildings to their full building potential, he gains a disadvantage.
In "perfect play" (what an awful term), there is no evidence that any game mechanic is superior to the other in terms of unit production. A zerg building 40 mutas after trading 200 supply might still get countered by a 6 templar warpin and 3+ stargates producing chrono'ed phoenix. A protoss warping in 20 zealots at once might still be held off by another cycle of 12 marines and 3 marauders, supported by 1-2 medivacs. And so on.
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Next thing, the deathball. A 200/200 Colossi/Templar deathball is not as hard to micro as a ghost/viking/mmm army, I agree (personal opinion though). But let's count units to control (= units that may not be a-moved without dying) first.
For Terran, I count ghosts, I count vikings, I count marines (since marauders can take a storm without dying in a second). That makes three.
For Protoss, I count (low count) sentries (either ff's, or a well-placed guardian shield, both requires pre-fight positioning or in-fight micro), I count Colossi, I coun't templar. Then, I count blink stalkers (again, either pre-fight positioning or in-fight micro, to use blink up to its full potential, both should be done) and last, but of course not least, I count the mothership core. That makes four, and I didn't count archons or controlling your charge zealots properly.
So, fighting deathball vs. deathball is as dangerous and demanding for a protoss as well as for a terran. The thing is, that protoss can do a lot lategame with proper positioning. To counter that (and to counter a potential game-ending engagement), the terran scans a lot, taking out observers (let me simplify and leave out the mass cloaked ghosts vs. observer snipe thingy, also I'll leave out the potential of 1-2 oracles revealing the terran army) and trying to keep track of the protoss army while dancing around it and finding a disadvantageous position for the protoss to fight in.
But hey, let's assume now that Terran and Protoss engage in a fight where the positions are quite okay for both players.
Now, it all comes down to micro and positioning. If the protoss, as you say, goes full a-move + storms (because smartcast so strong), then he'll simply die. Superior viking positioning, splits and emp/snipe will eradicate his army. On the other hand, the same will happen to the terran if he doesn't micro at all. So, a-move vs. a-move will be won by a Protoss, I think. But micro vs. micro in a fight that's starting on "equal chances" in terms of positioning and composition, it all comes down the skill of the player behind the keyboard.
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Next thing: some of your statements are plain wrong or said without providing any evidence.
"Master's league Protosses barely have higher than 120 apm."
At least for EU servers, I can say that this has never been my experience. I am facing master's players a lot (low masters, since I'm diamond. Played 3x masters before), and the Protosses among them seldomly have below 150. Even in my stupid noobish awful unskilled foreign diamond league, protosses have 120-180 apm (which is a huge range, I know, but that's how it scales). I am too lazy to pull off screenshots for those values, so don't pin me on that.
"ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss."
Oh, is it? Did you ever defend multipronged drop harassment from a terran? Have you ever had to deal with the pvp matchup? Have you ever had to fight swarm hosts? Have you ever had to deal with a "suddenly, mutalisks!" moment? Have you ever had to engage a terran army and find out that the terran has cloak and your observer is having a birthday party with Automaton-2000? Have you ever had to deal with zerglings all over the place early game, while gate expanding (okay, that's not hard, build a MSC  ).
On the other hand, have you ever tried to execute a blink allin properly? Have you ever tried to find the best point to transition from Colossi to HT? Have you ever tried to micro phoenixes while getting pushed on your early third? Have you ever dealt with fungaled sentries? Have you ever played vs. burrowed roaches in a macro game? Have you ever tried to execute a 3gate stargate pressure when your warpin pylons are being ravaged by zerglings? Have you ever had a 6pool in your face?
Long story short, there are so many situation that are hard for the Protoss to deal with and require tons and tons of skillful play and so on. The point is, that the protoss doesn't have to necessarily get the most of his units (they cost a ton and are really strong!), but has to find the best use of them. A decent protoss player doesn't require 250+ apm CONSTANT for playing in master's league, but he needs a strong gamesense, scouting ability and of course decision making. "Can I engage here?" "What unit fits my needs best now?" "Do I play aggressively, pull out some harass, play defensively?" Those are questions that, if answered wrongly, may not kill a zerg or terran instantly, but will kill the Protoss if done wrong. Protoss is IMO the most unforgiving race of all, lose your army with a bad trade makes you lose the game 95% of the time I would say. 70% of the time this is a loss for terran, roughly 60% for zerg I'd say. But those numbers are more of a personal thought then planted with evidence.
"NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans?
do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT."
Well, your examples are a bit out of context. But let me respond anyways. Naniwa and Scarlett are the top notch foreigners currently. They are the undisputed best non-koreans around. Naniwa had korean training and participated in the GSL! Naniwa is in a team called "Alliance" that is affiliated with EG, I am quite sure he has enough of contacts to ensure his training being useful. As for DIMAGA beating Flash, that might have just been a one-time upset. Let me pull out Sjow beating Life (sorry, Zealously) as an example that upsets can happen. Or do you seriously think that Life is now whining and crying in Bomber's arms, being all like "OMG terran so strong I hate it"?
Oh, and espcecially on Scarlett: have you ever seen that Scarlett vs. Bomber game, that just got into the top5 of the 2013's best games here on TL.net? You might see that this game is not about Scarlett re-supplying here 200/200 instantly. Or have you ever seen Scarlett's creepspread? "Top foreign" means that a competition with mid-/high-tier koreans is possible. Remember Scarlett going 2-3 vs sOs? Close call there, huh?
So, since I stayed neutral and objective 90% of my text, here is a piece of trash in your face: PROTOSS IS CURRENTLY 1-15 DOWN IN PROLEAGUE!
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On January 10 2014 19:15 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:13 MiCroLiFe wrote:On January 10 2014 19:05 dohgg wrote:
In serious note, and many pros terran claimed that same... TvP in general unit and balance compostion is quite balanced. the real issue that give prottos the edge is the variety of their game, and the variety of different defenses terran need to get.
if you put two players, one terran and one prottos at equal skill level, and you gonna tell them to play standard and honest a nice macro game.. there will never be a balanced issue.
there must be some kind of a bigger commitment for prottos cheeses or a wider options of scouting in insured way for terrans (or both). there is a balance issue if the player are equally skilled man. The terran must do so much more in engagements, macro, micro to have the chance to actually win. we must use TIER 1 unit whole game... if terran are lucky, its an even trade whit alot of gateway units + some colosus and some templars/archpns. but in late game protss have ALOT OF colosus, ALOT of archons and ALOT OF TEMPLARs. which are really really strong, and a terran whit equally skill Does not have a chance. You shout a lot of things without any proper evidence. We get it that you are frustrated that you loose while being the better player.
its from experience, while checking every toss apm and replays after a lose.. + i have tried toss myself some times and its really easy to micro the toss deathball compared to the terran army.. you can also put Forcefields down.. that makes EVEN the best Terrran in the world, useless cause hes trapped. only thing he can do is try to save some units whit medivacs and retreat.. ive seen ONLY one time, a terran actually had a godlike unit control that counters the colosus double shots. it was a recent tvp whit MARU, which splittet so insanely good and the colosus hit just One marine at the game, he stil lose the engagement tho..
yEAH i totally agree i can be a little BIAS and shout many things.. but i am 100% sure that Terrans in master/dia do agree whit me on most of theese points ive made
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On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think.
His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently.
I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation.
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On January 10 2014 19:13 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:05 dohgg wrote:
In serious note, and many pros terran claimed that same... TvP in general unit and balance compostion is quite balanced. the real issue that give prottos the edge is the variety of their game, and the variety of different defenses terran need to get.
if you put two players, one terran and one prottos at equal skill level, and you gonna tell them to play standard and honest a nice macro game.. there will never be a balanced issue.
there must be some kind of a bigger commitment for prottos cheeses or a wider options of scouting in insured way for terrans (or both). there is a balance issue if the player are equally skilled man. The terran must do so much more in engagements, macro, micro to have the chance to actually win. we must use TIER 1 unit whole game... if terran are lucky, its an even trade whit alot of gateway units + some colosus and some templars/archpns. but in late game protss have ALOT OF colosus, ALOT of archons and ALOT OF TEMPLARs. which are really really strong, and a terran whit equally skill Does not have a chance.
No, that's actually what DKs charts show. That equally skilled Terrans win >47% of the time.
How they determine equal skill is of course a question, but I doubt that an American firm on a free market will give detailed information about the technology they use. Not to mention that I hope they use algorithms that 99% of the community wouldn't even understand if they revealed them.
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On January 10 2014 19:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:13 MiCroLiFe wrote:On January 10 2014 19:05 dohgg wrote:
In serious note, and many pros terran claimed that same... TvP in general unit and balance compostion is quite balanced. the real issue that give prottos the edge is the variety of their game, and the variety of different defenses terran need to get.
if you put two players, one terran and one prottos at equal skill level, and you gonna tell them to play standard and honest a nice macro game.. there will never be a balanced issue.
there must be some kind of a bigger commitment for prottos cheeses or a wider options of scouting in insured way for terrans (or both). there is a balance issue if the player are equally skilled man. The terran must do so much more in engagements, macro, micro to have the chance to actually win. we must use TIER 1 unit whole game... if terran are lucky, its an even trade whit alot of gateway units + some colosus and some templars/archpns. but in late game protss have ALOT OF colosus, ALOT of archons and ALOT OF TEMPLARs. which are really really strong, and a terran whit equally skill Does not have a chance. No, that's actually what DKs charts show. That equally skilled Terrans win >47% of the time. How they determine equal skill is of course a question, but I doubt that an American firm on a free market will give detailed information about the technology they use. Not to mention that I hope they use algorithms that 99% of the community wouldn't even understand if they revealed them.
no it reveals that the mmr works that's all.
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I'm so happy I'm not David Kim.
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On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation.
Zerg and Terran players move their armies a lot more in general, and people have the habit to spam click this action. In part because we lack precision, so instead of a precise click to where you want to go you make several that get closer and closer, and part because it gives the feeling that spam clicking will make the army move faster.
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On January 10 2014 19:20 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Your post feels like you're simply pissed about the game's mechanics and racial balance. BUT, instead of raging on you and blaming you for flame, let me answer in a appropriate, explanatory way (TL Strategies recruit me soon ) Larva vs. Warpin vs. Queue production are simply different ways of being able to macro. A protoss with 8 gates on 3 bases will probably gather lots of overmins, also, if the warpin pylon is far out on the map or got killed (or the guy was just too lazy to build it), he will have a clear disadvantage. Same for zerg, if larva inject is not on time (which is really hard to do on a not m/gm level) while being pressured with a parade push, you're simply running out of defense units. Same for terran, if terran, while parading, misses his macro and doesn't use his buildings to their full building potential, he gains a disadvantage. In "perfect play" (what an awful term), there is no evidence that any game mechanic is superior to the other in terms of unit production. A zerg building 40 mutas after trading 200 supply might still get countered by a 6 templar warpin and 3+ stargates producing chrono'ed phoenix. A protoss warping in 20 zealots at once might still be held off by another cycle of 12 marines and 3 marauders, supported by 1-2 medivacs. And so on. ____ Next thing, the deathball. A 200/200 Colossi/Templar deathball is not as hard to micro as a ghost/viking/mmm army, I agree (personal opinion though). But let's count units to control (= units that may not be a-moved without dying) first. For Terran, I count ghosts, I count vikings, I count marines (since marauders can take a storm without dying in a second). That makes three. For Protoss, I count (low count) sentries (either ff's, or a well-placed guardian shield, both requires pre-fight positioning or in-fight micro), I count Colossi, I coun't templar. Then, I count blink stalkers (again, either pre-fight positioning or in-fight micro, to use blink up to its full potential, both should be done) and last, but of course not least, I count the mothership core. That makes four, and I didn't count archons or controlling your charge zealots properly. So, fighting deathball vs. deathball is as dangerous and demanding for a protoss as well as for a terran. The thing is, that protoss can do a lot lategame with proper positioning. To counter that (and to counter a potential game-ending engagement), the terran scans a lot, taking out observers (let me simplify and leave out the mass cloaked ghosts vs. observer snipe thingy, also I'll leave out the potential of 1-2 oracles revealing the terran army) and trying to keep track of the protoss army while dancing around it and finding a disadvantageous position for the protoss to fight in. But hey, let's assume now that Terran and Protoss engage in a fight where the positions are quite okay for both players. Now, it all comes down to micro and positioning. If the protoss, as you say, goes full a-move + storms (because smartcast so strong), then he'll simply die. Superior viking positioning, splits and emp/snipe will eradicate his army. On the other hand, the same will happen to the terran if he doesn't micro at all. So, a-move vs. a-move will be won by a Protoss, I think. But micro vs. micro in a fight that's starting on "equal chances" in terms of positioning and composition, it all comes down the skill of the player behind the keyboard. ____ Next thing: some of your statements are plain wrong or said without providing any evidence. At least for EU servers, I can say that this has never been my experience. I am facing master's players a lot (low masters, since I'm diamond. Played 3x masters before), and the Protosses among them seldomly have below 150. Even in my stupid noobish awful unskilled foreign diamond league, protosses have 120-180 apm (which is a huge range, I know, but that's how it scales). I am too lazy to pull off screenshots for those values, so don't pin me on that. Oh, is it? Did you ever defend multipronged drop harassment from a terran? Have you ever had to deal with the pvp matchup? Have you ever had to fight swarm hosts? Have you ever had to deal with a "suddenly, mutalisks!" moment? Have you ever had to engage a terran army and find out that the terran has cloak and your observer is having a birthday party with Automaton-2000? Have you ever had to deal with zerglings all over the place early game, while gate expanding (okay, that's not hard, build a MSC ). On the other hand, have you ever tried to execute a blink allin properly? Have you ever tried to find the best point to transition from Colossi to HT? Have you ever tried to micro phoenixes while getting pushed on your early third? Have you ever dealt with fungaled sentries? Have you ever played vs. burrowed roaches in a macro game? Have you ever tried to execute a 3gate stargate pressure when your warpin pylons are being ravaged by zerglings? Have you ever had a 6pool in your face? Long story short, there are so many situation that are hard for the Protoss to deal with and require tons and tons of skillful play and so on. The point is, that the protoss doesn't have to necessarily get the most of his units (they cost a ton and are really strong!), but has to find the best use of them. A decent protoss player doesn't require 250+ apm CONSTANT for playing in master's league, but he needs a strong gamesense, scouting ability and of course decision making. "Can I engage here?" "What unit fits my needs best now?" "Do I play aggressively, pull out some harass, play defensively?" Those are questions that, if answered wrongly, may not kill a zerg or terran instantly, but will kill the Protoss if done wrong. Protoss is IMO the most unforgiving race of all, lose your army with a bad trade makes you lose the game 95% of the time I would say. 70% of the time this is a loss for terran, roughly 60% for zerg I'd say. But those numbers are more of a personal thought then planted with evidence. Show nested quote +"NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans?
do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT." Well, your examples are a bit out of context. But let me respond anyways. Naniwa and Scarlett are the top notch foreigners currently. They are the undisputed best non-koreans around. Naniwa had korean training and participated in the GSL! Naniwa is in a team called "Alliance" that is affiliated with EG, I am quite sure he has enough of contacts to ensure his training being useful. As for DIMAGA beating Flash, that might have just been a one-time upset. Let me pull out Sjow beating Life (sorry, Zealously) as an example that upsets can happen. Or do you seriously think that Life is now whining and crying in Bomber's arms, being all like "OMG terran so strong I hate it"? Oh, and espcecially on Scarlett: have you ever seen that Scarlett vs. Bomber game, that just got into the top5 of the 2013's best games here on TL.net? You might see that this game is not about Scarlett re-supplying here 200/200 instantly. Or have you ever seen Scarlett's creepspread? "Top foreign" means that a competition with mid-/high-tier koreans is possible. Remember Scarlett going 2-3 vs sOs? Close call there, huh? So, since I stayed neutral and objective 90% of my text, here is a piece of trash in your face: PROTOSS IS CURRENTLY 1-15 DOWN IN PROLEAGUE!
Come add me on EU server, check my match list vs toss and se for yourself. apm is rarely over 120. Microlife.365
you know that in proleague, its so little terrans.. and SOOO many protoss.. IF there where equally (33%) of every race in the proleague, the stats would be different. + its been TWO freaking weeks.. AND the really good tosses/zerg havent played a terran yet.. i mean.. Maru played, who? a toss what havent won anything special.. you also have to se WHO plays WHO.
Yeah.. swarm host are harder for us since we dont have immortal or colossu that can shot them effectively:/
I hope that smartcast is gettin rid of. so you have to be really good whit hotkeys and really godo whit targeting etc, so u cant stomr EVERYWHERE in 2 seconds.. it also means the same for us, ghost, ravens etc.. will be much more interesting fights... much more skill inolved
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On January 10 2014 19:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. Zerg and Terran players move their armies a lot more in general, and people have the habit to spam click this action. In part because we lack precision, so instead of a precise click to where you want to go you make several that get closer and closer, and part because it gives the feeling that spam clicking will make the army move faster.
And? Having to move you're army a lot more, having to look back at your base a lot more all adds up. Imagine how much stronger they could make the race if they made it more mechanically heavy. I honestly think its hands down the weakest race in the game, and is offset only because of how much easier it is in comparison to the other two.
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On January 10 2014 18:52 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 10 2014 18:01 aZealot wrote:On January 10 2014 14:56 dcemuser wrote:On January 10 2014 14:37 aZealot wrote:On January 10 2014 14:24 stuchiu wrote:On January 10 2014 14:15 Roman666 wrote:On January 10 2014 14:06 stuchiu wrote:On January 10 2014 13:25 Plansix wrote:On January 10 2014 13:22 itsjustatank wrote:
[quote]
I question all use of statistics, and it leads me to question people's motives when I sense bad methodology. I don't make the assumption that all data and interpretations of data presented to me are kosher, precisely because I know how easy it is to shape any data set to say whatever it is I want it to say and phrase it in such a way that few people will question it. Ok, but I am going to ask you the same question, why would they do that? You don't just imply that their data is incorrectly gathered, but they do so with purpose with the intent to mislead. Do you really think they want an imbalanced game? I don't really see any good reason for them to "cook the numbers" to make the game appear balanced. I don't think they would purposely mislead anyone. But it's easy to mislead yourself into just looking at the numbers. There was a reason BL/infestor wasn't touched for the last 6-8 months of WoL and it was because the numbers were balanced. It's easy to mislead yourself into thinking winrates are the problem rather than the design or function of the matchups. There are just too few people with too much information and too many objectives to comprehensively cover all paths and solutions to everything the want. From what I've seen in the last few years they want: 1) A balanced game across all levels of play (to attract more casual players. I can understand the sentiment, but you won't be attracting casuals to play more through ladder imho.) 2) They want it to be fun and dynamic. 3) They want to increase the skill cap. 4) They want less deathball matchups. 5) They want Zerg to be "Zergy" 6) The bunker must be changed. 7) They want to all races to have multiple options per matchup. But a lot of those objectives are contradictory. They felt Protoss was too weak early so they gave them photon cannon. That helped balance but increased the amount of deathball matchups and fun and dynamic gameplay (Nothing is more deflating than watching a TvP about to ramp up in speed to only be stopped cold by a photon cannon.) They want the game to be more fun and dynamic so they increase the speed of mutas, medivacs and oracles. But at the same time it decreases tension and awe of the game. Mass drops are now a standard play capable of being done by every solid Terran instead of a hard earned specialty way to play that was only done by MMA and Gumiho. Mutas became faster and gained regen increasing the "Multitasking" of Zerg players but in the end all it really did was let weaker players play like Soulkey/DRG/Leenook at the end of WoL without the extreme control, intuition and practice as it was much more forgiving. They wanted to give Protoss more options in the early game against both Zerg and Terran so they gave them the MSC, cheaper dts and an oracle. While Zerg can still play a variety of opening builds, Terran has been pigeonholed into going reaper cc every game unless they want to just randomly gamble on a cc or double proxy rax compared to Protoss' 4-5 solid openings that all transition well into mid-late (And this doesn't include obscure builds like First's double forge robo immortal build.) Which is why I assume they read all of the balance threads on here and other places. Even if they never release how they are reaching those numbers, even being critical of the methodology is still an important point to bring up so that both spectators and the dev.team don't take the numbers as the only truth. I doubt very much that they will ever comprehensively tell us how they came to these numbers and honestly they shouldn't. It only opens them to more criticism and takes away from actual balance discussion but its always important to not take these numbers at face value either. But what would be the point of releasing these numbers? To back their point, to have the unsinkable argument when some one would question their thinking? Without saying how they came up with these numbers, it even more sinkable argument, because everyone can question it. Seriously, what they were thinking? They just wanted something concrete to show why they think Protoss isn't as much of a problem as the community is making it out to be? Maybe they just wanted to show some of their reasoning and keep us as informed as they can without violating company policy? Who knows. In any case, I am glad that they keep their methods in-house and do not publicise. Nor should they (especially to a community as over-represented in armchair experts as SC2). It's a pity he felt he had to share it, even if partially. A more blatant fuck you to the community would have been a lot better. I'm sure it would have been a lot more cathartic for him too. Slow and steady as she goes from Blizzard suits me just fine. I would honestly much rather have some radical change, but I know that Blizzard can't and won't do that until the expansion (if they do it at all). As I have said above, my take on this is dependent on the degree of radicality of changes. I'd be against changes that lead to substantial re-learning of the game. Therefore, removal of units is out as is fundamental alteration of race mechanics (such as forcefields, floating buildings, spawn larvae etc). I believe the positive effects of these changes are largely unknown (and in the many cases usually imagined). I prefer a known state, whatever its shortcomings, to an imagined utopia. You prefer known states? So I guess we should have just kept Broodlord/Infestor vs. Archon toilet going for another 5 years or so. The risk in changing such a fundamental part of the match up was too great. And when Blizzard finally did change it, all the pros were so upset about having to relearn the matchup that they left in droves. Right? That totally happened. We have test realms and Betas for a reason. Blizzard needs to start taking advantage of them. TFT is what every expansion pack has the potential to be. It completely retooled ROC, and not a single person on planet earth will tell you that ROC was a better game. People keep mentioning BL/Infestor as a reason to patch ignoring the fact that it was a patch that brought about that state of affairs in the first place.
I don't even know where to start addressing all of the wrongness in this single sentence for maximum dramatic power.
First of all, really? Your big counter-argument to "sweeping changes are absolutely necessary and can be great for the game" is the problem was caused by a patch?
Except it wasn't even that. BL/Infestor was already a problem by 1.3, and the ONLY buff Infestors had had by that point in time was Fungal preventing Blink. So unless you're going to tell me that Fungal preventing Blink caused BL/Infestor to happen in ZvP and ZvT, and then come up with another imaginary patch that single-handedly introduced the stupid Archon toilet that needed to go as badly as BL/Infestor did, what you've said is completely useless, and we're still left with a horrible game state that needed to go, and it went, and everyone was happy that it went, and nobody left the game because they had to re-learn the match-ups.
Where TFT is concerned, the problem is that SC the game is an e-sport with a lot of money and livelihoods on the line and with a number of other games in direct competition. It is also a different and more complex game. Moreover, the environment is not the same. There is no guarantee that LOTV will be TFT. The incentives are not there to make that kind of step again. Nor is HOTS in anywhere near as broken a state. Please don't exaggerate.
HOTS is not broken. PvT, PvP, and possibly PvZ (haven't seen enough of it lately, but I hear bad things) are broken. ZvZ is supremely one-dimensional, but it kind of works, for what it is.
On to the money and livelihoods. Excellent point, except as we've already seen from BL/Infestor and HOTS in general, nobody leaves the game when matchups change. Even now with TvP being basically the opposite of what it was at the end of WOL, are Korean T pros retiring more than Korean pros of other races? No, they're not.
I admire your appreciation for stability, but as long as we're talking about peoples' livelihoods, wouldn't you rather remove all the cheese MSC and Oracle builds that get in the way of good, deserving Protoss, Zerg, and Terrans advancing in important tournaments when they get knocked out by a coin flip in a BO1 or a BO3? I'd rather lose all of that. I think that's what actually matters to pro gamers' livelihoods more than a few weeks of studying up on new matchups.
But, yes, going back to your first point. I'd rather Blizzard followed the right principles (patch slowly and carefully) even if they make the occasional mistake, than follow the wrong principles (patch too fast and poorly) and err often as a result.
Except at the end of the day, we don't have "slowly and carefully," do we? We have "slowly and poorly." Random nerfs to Widow Mines that wouldn't be necessary if the buffs to Siege Tanks did what they were supposed to do, random buffs to Oracles that the entire community knows won't be of any use and pro Ps say nobody needed or asked for. I'm a fan of the Roach burrow tinkering, but you're telling me that's slow and careful? That could easily blow up in Blizzard's face right now.
Your entire point is based on pros throwing hissy fits and leaving if the match-ups are significantly altered, and we've seen time and time again that that's just patently false, they're willing to roll with any changes. If anyone's going to throw hissy fits and leave, it's spectators who are tired of seeing terrible game design go unchanged for 4 years in a row.
Guess what would get them to stay.
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On January 10 2014 13:23 stuchiu wrote:
I thought we went over this with WoL. Just because PvZ was around a 50% winrate in a matchup, that didn't mean something wasn't wrong with the matchup.
Yet "something being wrong with the matchup" is NOT the same as "game is imbalanced" which is what people keep crying about.
In any case, totally unsurprised by the data here. Every matchup well within a 5% imbalance margin. Looks reasonably solid.
On January 10 2014 15:53 Drake wrote:
so when i read all of it, overall its T>Z>P>T ^^
Yeah, I noticed that as well, heh. I would bet you can blame mutalisks for that.
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On January 10 2014 19:31 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. Zerg and Terran players move their armies a lot more in general, and people have the habit to spam click this action. In part because we lack precision, so instead of a precise click to where you want to go you make several that get closer and closer, and part because it gives the feeling that spam clicking will make the army move faster. And? Having to move you're army a lot more, having to look back at your base a lot more all adds up. Imagine how much stronger they could make the race if they made it more mechanically heavy. I honestly think its hands down the weakest race in the game, and is offset only because of how much easier it is in comparison to the other two.
I'm not defending Protoss, it's a pile of crap deathball race. I'm just saying that bigger APM does not always mean better player.
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Let's not forget that playing Terran it's insanely easy to get really high apm because you're constantly building things. This requires no looking away, very little training, and nearly no thought at all. The fact that Protoss don't need to do this makes their APM requirement much lower without really making it easier to play them. (Because everyone can keep up producing stuff as a Terran even while pushing/dropping).
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I couldn't care less about winrates if only the game was entertaining.
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On January 10 2014 19:29 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:20 boxerfred wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Your post feels like you're simply pissed about the game's mechanics and racial balance. BUT, instead of raging on you and blaming you for flame, let me answer in a appropriate, explanatory way (TL Strategies recruit me soon ) Larva vs. Warpin vs. Queue production are simply different ways of being able to macro. A protoss with 8 gates on 3 bases will probably gather lots of overmins, also, if the warpin pylon is far out on the map or got killed (or the guy was just too lazy to build it), he will have a clear disadvantage. Same for zerg, if larva inject is not on time (which is really hard to do on a not m/gm level) while being pressured with a parade push, you're simply running out of defense units. Same for terran, if terran, while parading, misses his macro and doesn't use his buildings to their full building potential, he gains a disadvantage. In "perfect play" (what an awful term), there is no evidence that any game mechanic is superior to the other in terms of unit production. A zerg building 40 mutas after trading 200 supply might still get countered by a 6 templar warpin and 3+ stargates producing chrono'ed phoenix. A protoss warping in 20 zealots at once might still be held off by another cycle of 12 marines and 3 marauders, supported by 1-2 medivacs. And so on. ____ Next thing, the deathball. A 200/200 Colossi/Templar deathball is not as hard to micro as a ghost/viking/mmm army, I agree (personal opinion though). But let's count units to control (= units that may not be a-moved without dying) first. For Terran, I count ghosts, I count vikings, I count marines (since marauders can take a storm without dying in a second). That makes three. For Protoss, I count (low count) sentries (either ff's, or a well-placed guardian shield, both requires pre-fight positioning or in-fight micro), I count Colossi, I coun't templar. Then, I count blink stalkers (again, either pre-fight positioning or in-fight micro, to use blink up to its full potential, both should be done) and last, but of course not least, I count the mothership core. That makes four, and I didn't count archons or controlling your charge zealots properly. So, fighting deathball vs. deathball is as dangerous and demanding for a protoss as well as for a terran. The thing is, that protoss can do a lot lategame with proper positioning. To counter that (and to counter a potential game-ending engagement), the terran scans a lot, taking out observers (let me simplify and leave out the mass cloaked ghosts vs. observer snipe thingy, also I'll leave out the potential of 1-2 oracles revealing the terran army) and trying to keep track of the protoss army while dancing around it and finding a disadvantageous position for the protoss to fight in. But hey, let's assume now that Terran and Protoss engage in a fight where the positions are quite okay for both players. Now, it all comes down to micro and positioning. If the protoss, as you say, goes full a-move + storms (because smartcast so strong), then he'll simply die. Superior viking positioning, splits and emp/snipe will eradicate his army. On the other hand, the same will happen to the terran if he doesn't micro at all. So, a-move vs. a-move will be won by a Protoss, I think. But micro vs. micro in a fight that's starting on "equal chances" in terms of positioning and composition, it all comes down the skill of the player behind the keyboard. ____ Next thing: some of your statements are plain wrong or said without providing any evidence.
"Master's league Protosses barely have higher than 120 apm."
At least for EU servers, I can say that this has never been my experience. I am facing master's players a lot (low masters, since I'm diamond. Played 3x masters before), and the Protosses among them seldomly have below 150. Even in my stupid noobish awful unskilled foreign diamond league, protosses have 120-180 apm (which is a huge range, I know, but that's how it scales). I am too lazy to pull off screenshots for those values, so don't pin me on that. "ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss." Oh, is it? Did you ever defend multipronged drop harassment from a terran? Have you ever had to deal with the pvp matchup? Have you ever had to fight swarm hosts? Have you ever had to deal with a "suddenly, mutalisks!" moment? Have you ever had to engage a terran army and find out that the terran has cloak and your observer is having a birthday party with Automaton-2000? Have you ever had to deal with zerglings all over the place early game, while gate expanding (okay, that's not hard, build a MSC ). On the other hand, have you ever tried to execute a blink allin properly? Have you ever tried to find the best point to transition from Colossi to HT? Have you ever tried to micro phoenixes while getting pushed on your early third? Have you ever dealt with fungaled sentries? Have you ever played vs. burrowed roaches in a macro game? Have you ever tried to execute a 3gate stargate pressure when your warpin pylons are being ravaged by zerglings? Have you ever had a 6pool in your face? Long story short, there are so many situation that are hard for the Protoss to deal with and require tons and tons of skillful play and so on. The point is, that the protoss doesn't have to necessarily get the most of his units (they cost a ton and are really strong!), but has to find the best use of them. A decent protoss player doesn't require 250+ apm CONSTANT for playing in master's league, but he needs a strong gamesense, scouting ability and of course decision making. "Can I engage here?" "What unit fits my needs best now?" "Do I play aggressively, pull out some harass, play defensively?" Those are questions that, if answered wrongly, may not kill a zerg or terran instantly, but will kill the Protoss if done wrong. Protoss is IMO the most unforgiving race of all, lose your army with a bad trade makes you lose the game 95% of the time I would say. 70% of the time this is a loss for terran, roughly 60% for zerg I'd say. But those numbers are more of a personal thought then planted with evidence. "NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans?
do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT." Well, your examples are a bit out of context. But let me respond anyways. Naniwa and Scarlett are the top notch foreigners currently. They are the undisputed best non-koreans around. Naniwa had korean training and participated in the GSL! Naniwa is in a team called "Alliance" that is affiliated with EG, I am quite sure he has enough of contacts to ensure his training being useful. As for DIMAGA beating Flash, that might have just been a one-time upset. Let me pull out Sjow beating Life (sorry, Zealously) as an example that upsets can happen. Or do you seriously think that Life is now whining and crying in Bomber's arms, being all like "OMG terran so strong I hate it"? Oh, and espcecially on Scarlett: have you ever seen that Scarlett vs. Bomber game, that just got into the top5 of the 2013's best games here on TL.net? You might see that this game is not about Scarlett re-supplying here 200/200 instantly. Or have you ever seen Scarlett's creepspread? "Top foreign" means that a competition with mid-/high-tier koreans is possible. Remember Scarlett going 2-3 vs sOs? Close call there, huh? So, since I stayed neutral and objective 90% of my text, here is a piece of trash in your face: PROTOSS IS CURRENTLY 1-15 DOWN IN PROLEAGUE! Come add me on EU server, check my match list vs toss and se for yourself. apm is rarely over 120. Microlife.365 you know that in proleague, its so little terrans.. and SOOO many protoss.. IF there where equally (33%) of every race in the proleague, the stats would be different. + its been TWO freaking weeks.. AND the really good tosses/zerg havent played a terran yet.. i mean.. Maru played, who? a toss what havent won anything special.. you also have to se WHO plays WHO. Yeah.. swarm host are harder for us since we dont have immortal or colossu that can shot them effectively:/ I hope that smartcast is gettin rid of. so you have to be really good whit hotkeys and really godo whit targeting etc, so u cant stomr EVERYWHERE in 2 seconds.. it also means the same for us, ghost, ravens etc.. will be much more interesting fights... much more skill inolved
So, if there's 20 protosses and the race is imba, and they get killed by 5 terrans and 5 zergs in 15 out of 16 cases. what does that tell us? Swarm hosts are harder for terran since terran does not have Immortals? Are you sure with saying that? I mean, it's not like you can drop on them, have some tanks, use your freakin' mobility and stuff... Yeah, you're right, who did Maru play? Another high-tier korean protoss? Gosh, please. Shut up. I was so kind and nice and trying to have a conversation/argument about racial balance and design, but you're all the way like "HEY MODS PLEASE WARN ME FOR BALANCE WHINE". So, I won't stop you.
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On January 10 2014 19:34 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 19:31 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 19:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:On January 10 2014 19:21 bo1b wrote:On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. His 36 apm comment is an exxageration to be sure, but I see protoss players in masters league with far lower apm then the other two, far more often. I'm not sure if it's possible to play a non turtling mech terran, or zerg in general with less then 200 apm in masters league, or less then 120 eapm, but it sure as fuck is possible to play that as protoss. And while apm/eapm don't mean everything, it's a bit ridiculous that it's possible to go up against protoss players with 100 less apm, or 60 less eapm then you (or far more) so frequently. I guess I just think that difficulty should be balanced into the equation. Zerg and Terran players move their armies a lot more in general, and people have the habit to spam click this action. In part because we lack precision, so instead of a precise click to where you want to go you make several that get closer and closer, and part because it gives the feeling that spam clicking will make the army move faster. And? Having to move you're army a lot more, having to look back at your base a lot more all adds up. Imagine how much stronger they could make the race if they made it more mechanically heavy. I honestly think its hands down the weakest race in the game, and is offset only because of how much easier it is in comparison to the other two. I'm not defending Protoss, it's a pile of crap deathball race. I'm just saying that bigger APM does not always mean better player.
"Maybe all those protoss players with half my eapm are in masters league with me because they understand the game better, and make better strategic decisions each game."
Maybe. Seems like a pretty long bow to draw though.
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On January 10 2014 19:35 blarkh wrote:
Let's not forget that playing Terran it's insanely easy to get really high apm because you're constantly building things. This requires no looking away, very little training, and nearly no thought at all. The fact that Protoss don't need to do this makes their APM requirement much lower without really making it easier to play them. (Because everyone can keep up producing stuff as a Terran even while pushing/dropping).
You must be joking.
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On January 10 2014 19:35 blarkh wrote:
Let's not forget that playing Terran it's insanely easy to get really high apm because you're constantly building things. This requires no looking away, very little training, and nearly no thought at all. The fact that Protoss don't need to do this makes their APM requirement much lower without really making it easier to play them. (Because everyone can keep up producing stuff as a Terran even while pushing/dropping).
you can warp in at the same time you harass or at the same time you push at protoss to? oh i forgot.. toss multitask.. nevermind.
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On January 10 2014 19:35 blarkh wrote:
Let's not forget that playing Terran it's insanely easy to get really high apm because you're constantly building things. This requires no looking away, very little training, and nearly no thought at all. The fact that Protoss don't need to do this makes their APM requirement much lower without really making it easier to play them. (Because everyone can keep up producing stuff as a Terran even while pushing/dropping).
This is so damn wrong, rofl stop posting here pls!
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EPT
