EPTDavid Kim's Current Balance Thoughts - Page 13
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Asturas
Finland587 Posts
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On January 10 2014 18:44 MiCroLiFe wrote: its a reason he cant hit gm as terran, but whit zergand toss  I'm sure he could with more practice, he's a good player. | ||
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 10 2014 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote: You prefer known states? So I guess we should have just kept Broodlord/Infestor vs. Archon toilet going for another 5 years or so. The risk in changing such a fundamental part of the match up was too great. And when Blizzard finally did change it, all the pros were so upset about having to relearn the matchup that they left in droves. Right? That totally happened. We have test realms and Betas for a reason. Blizzard needs to start taking advantage of them. TFT is what every expansion pack has the potential to be. It completely retooled ROC, and not a single person on planet earth will tell you that ROC was a better game. People keep mentioning BL/Infestor as a reason to patch ignoring the fact that it was a patch that brought about that state of affairs in the first place. Even in that case, as far as PvZ was concerned P players were slowly adapting when they weren't trying to Immortal/Sentry all-in. Most of the time they failed (especially on Daybreak) but different things were tried. Where TFT is concerned, the problem is that SC the game is an e-sport with a lot of money and livelihoods on the line and with a number of other games in direct competition. The environment is not the same. Moreover, it is also a different and more complex game. There is no guarantee that LOTV will be TFT in effect (even if Blizzard did everything that people want them to do - and that is one long wish list). The incentives and conditions are not there to make that kind of step again. Nor is HOTS in anywhere near as broken a state. Please don't exaggerate. But, yes, going back to your first point, I'd rather Blizzard followed the right principles (patch slowly and carefully) even if they make the occasional mistake, than follow the wrong principles (patch too fast and poorly) and err often as a result. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
On January 10 2014 12:06 Zanzabarr wrote: Protoss has been savagely brutalized this week in proleague..... they went 1-15 in non mirrors in a best of 1 format.... the supposedly strongest format for protoss. To all the non-pro players out there.... no... your perceived strength of protoss isn't holding you back... you are. I'm pretty sure 80%+ of the player base doesn't use their army mobility advantage properly, if at all, and go through this three step magical process. 1) A-move mobile army 2) Take bad engagement and lose said engagement 3) Cry imbalance and demand buffs/nerfs this. well said | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On January 10 2014 18:16 MiCroLiFe wrote: What? That statistic's are completly wrong.. They dosnt make sence IN any way.. They should explain how diffrent those stats are compared to the REAL winrate.. I often check my fellow terran's winrate after i play them ( master/diamond) and i rarely see anyone whit over 50% winrate vs zergs.. and over 51% winrate for terrans? so the winrate have gone UP after the widow mine nerf? thats the dumbest thing ive read all day. I think the balance team and DK should really really READ this short memo also ITS 3 TIMES as hard to play terran than protoss. Last season i actually met a protoss whit 36 apm. yes you read right. 36. i had 200+ and the game lastet for 30 minutes. apm and eapm does not mean everything BUT HOW CAN anyone that is 4 x slower than the other player have any chance of actually winning? in progames everyone have 200+ apm.. I barely se protoss whit over 120+ apm in master league.. Those who actually have near my own apm are actually good and do use warp prism harass and other stuff. its totaly okay to lose to a good player. also if you are in late game and have terran army against toss army, WHAT does the toss have to do actually? NOT gettin in a super concave and just storm as soon they see marines. i do rarely se mulitple unit hotkeys from protoss.. Terran have to target the colosus, snipe/emp templars, target archon aswell. would be nice to drop 3 places at once to.. and the most important part, we have to KITE, SPREAD UNITS. thats really really hard when time warp do NOT let you move out before storms are all over you. .. IF you are way way better than the protoss, yeah you will win cause youre macro and micro are superior. if the skill are equal in everything. the toss will win EVERY TIME. Also. i spend my minerals alle the time, i rarely have over 1k minerals.. and after a fight, EVEN if i win a fight against zerg or protoss, they can resupply so damn fast its not even funny. tvz= equal trade, and you can make what? 10 marines, 1 marduer 2 viking, at the same time? while zerg ban actually make the whole army again whitin the same time frame? Protoss can warp in ANYwhere on the map, so as terran you actually have to have TOTALT map control in order to not be harassed.. i always have turret + bunker now at my fourth/fifth. ONE more thing that have to be looked at. WHY is the winrate close to 50% according to blizzard? My thought is that MANY terrans change race or quit due to frustration. which let ONLY the best terrans remain, those who are superior in skill, those who win50%.. Its a reason its so few terrans in master and grandmaster. cause its god damn hard to play and you have to use 5 x time to train on it than the other races... THats why you se korean terrans doin well, while non korean terrans are actually freewin in any big tournaments. NON KOREAN GSL PLAYERS? protoss and zergs. naniwa beats jaedong, diamaga beats flash? scarlett beats korean terrans? do you ever se empirehappy, lucifron win roro, sos or any top korean player? NO YOU DO NOT. and to my fellow terrans, Dont give up! the game will hopefully get balanced in LOTV EDIT: Would also like to add that terran have to actually prepare for ANY all in by protoss, which is hard to scout when a stalker or 2 pokes you and marines are useless against a stalker who just micro's: ebay against oracel? turret against dt? MANY bunkers against blink all in. IMORTAL bust, not eeven 5-6 bunkers are enough. 4gate, 2gate blink. etc etc.. but the worst part if. IF YOU actually are so good and HOLD this all ins, you are stil behind cause losing scv, units etc while protoss can probe up and have free nexus canon deffence.. so counter attack do not work as well:/ Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. | ||
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Parcelleus
Australia1662 Posts
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
Using proleague as evidence of balance is bad because of two things. It is incredibly small sample size compared to the games played around the servers in a month. Also, there is 4x more protoss players in proleague than terrans. Not all of those guys are Partings, Dears, Rains etc. On the other hand, terrans who do come out are Maru, Flash, TY etc. Finally, proleaague has different maps than for example wcs and map design also plays a role in balance. | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway265 Posts
On January 10 2014 18:49 AxionSteel wrote: I'm sure he could with more practice, he's a good player. Yeah but he have the same practive time as zerg and toss, which means its harder as terran. end of story | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
every terran friend i know (14) has a win rate of 30-45% in tvp. | ||
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Serinox
Germany5224 Posts
On January 10 2014 18:55 Parcelleus wrote: I bought the game when it came out, witnessed the Terran OPness for far too long. It;s nice to see how Terrans are the ones who need to "get better" , like Toss and Zerg did during the OP days of T. Im glad DK has worked out a system to deal with balance and dosent rush into things. Thanks for the update DK! The domination of Broodlord-Infestor lasted way longer than the terran dominance. | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway265 Posts
On January 10 2014 18:54 TheRabidDeer wrote: i did not saved it, but it might be in my autosave list? ill look for it when im home from work. i also se alot of protoss have 60-80 apm and stil win over me.. as i said, apm dosnt mean everythning but a player whit high apm is most likely faster than the other player. WHEN do you se a terran whit less than 150 apm in master?/GM? ONLY player i know is goody^^Do you have the replay of that 36apm game? Because I think you played like crap if he had 36apm while you had 200+. Also, you overrate APM in general. I can either play like a gold player with 700apm or I can play like a masters player with 130-150apm because im making good movements instead of spamming apm up. Also: List of foreigners that have beaten jaedong Major Jim (protoss) Demuslim SaSe Naniwa theognis Ret That is 3T, 3P, 1Z LucifroN is 43% against koreans Scarlett is 51.35% Naniwa is 46.81% And while dimaga did beat flash, he is 37.41% against koreans Lay off the kool aid and realize the game is probably a lot more balanced than you think. | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
He will say anything it seems | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 10 2014 18:47 painkilla wrote: DK logic : - We only care about pro level --> show stats why ladder is balance. - Protoss 50% GM small sample size --> show proleague protoss win rate with sample size of 30 matches. - he didn't say that, it's completely made up - explicitly stated that they got feedback from proplayers that has changed and used proleague to reason why this feedback may have changed; also explicitly stated that proleague is also a small sample size | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway265 Posts
On January 10 2014 18:59 dohgg wrote: Are these stats for real? Oo every terran friend i know (14) has a win rate of 30-45% in tvp. Yeah the stats must have been tweaked somehow.. same whit the tvz winrate! which is HIGHER than it was before the mine nerf  User was warned for this post | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
if you put two players, one terran and one prottos at equal skill level, and you gonna tell them to play standard and honest a nice macro game.. there will never be a balanced issue. there must be some kind of a bigger commitment for prottos cheeses or a wider options of scouting in insured way for terrans (or both). | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On January 10 2014 19:01 Serinox wrote: The domination of Broodlord-Infestor lasted way longer than the terran dominance. http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ T dominated from release to about december 2011. Then it was mostly balanced for a while, then around april-may (chart says may) Z dominated until HotS. So youre talking like 17 months vs 11 months. I dont think you can argue that BL/infestor was way longer than T dominance unless you have a very bad memory. | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway265 Posts
On January 10 2014 19:05 dohgg wrote: In serious note, and many pros terran claimed that same... TvP in general unit and balance compostion is quite balanced. the real issue that give prottos the edge is the variety of their game, and the variety of different defenses terran need to get. if you put two players, one terran and one prottos at equal skill level, and you gonna tell them to play standard and honest a nice macro game.. there will never be a balanced issue. there must be some kind of a bigger commitment for prottos cheeses or a wider options of scouting in insured way for terrans (or both). there is a balance issue if the player are equally skilled man. The terran must do so much more in engagements, macro, micro to have the chance to actually win. we must use TIER 1 unit whole game... if terran are lucky, its an even trade whit alot of gateway units + some colosus and some templars/archpns. but in late game protss have ALOT OF colosus, ALOT of archons and ALOT OF TEMPLARs. which are really really strong, and a terran whit equally skill Does not have a chance. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On January 10 2014 19:13 MiCroLiFe wrote: there is a balance issue if the player are equally skilled man. The terran must do so much more in engagements, macro, micro to have the chance to actually win. we must use TIER 1 unit whole game... if terran are lucky, its an even trade whit alot of gateway units + some colosus and some templars/archpns. but in late game protss have ALOT OF colosus, ALOT of archons and ALOT OF TEMPLARs. which are really really strong, and a terran whit equally skill Does not have a chance. You shout a lot of things without any proper evidence. We get it that you are frustrated that you loose while being the better player. | ||
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
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