EPT
any mech buff is certainly appreciated though. terran is def already the funnest race to watch but at some point even marine marauder medivac (mine) gets boring
Jan 2nd Balance Test Map - Page 8
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
any mech buff is certainly appreciated though. terran is def already the funnest race to watch but at some point even marine marauder medivac (mine) gets boring | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16080 Posts
On January 03 2014 08:57 Paljas wrote: you cant see how TvT could be negatively affected? really? TvT is already a dominant TvT strat, any tank buffs would kill Bio in TvT As per my post a couple pages back. regarding David Kim's proposed increase to armored damage. The big question is. Would it affect TvT too much? I'm not so sure. The damage vs Marines and Helbats would remain the same, the damage to Structures, Thors, Vikings, Marauders and Siege Tanks would increase. I think the benefit this offers to Bio players utilizing small numbers of Tanks defensively actually outweighs the benefit it would provide to an offensive minded Mech player. They aren't going to buff Siege Tank flat damage. Anyone with a brain knows that, it would absolutely destroy TvT and TvZ but increasing damage vs Armored does do a couple of interesting things to TvZ and TvP without having an enormous effect on the Tank's current power in TvT. | ||
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superpanda27
111 Posts
Anyways they should really reverse the buff they did to the oracle before, I feel sorry for all the terrans that have to deal with it in the early game with that. And then all the protoss who have to deal with it in PvP. I do hope they be careful with buffing the tank versus armor as buffing the tank would even further diminish one of the zergs' only cheese strategies the roach bane all-in (Then again the roach bane all-in should be kept a surprise and if scouted and terran reacts appropriately in time, the all-in should not work). But if the buff means more damage exclusively against immortals then yes I am all for that change. It's kind of dumb how strong the immortal is versus mech if you really think about it. As for the photon overcharge duration reduced, that sounds good. Also there was something that happened during one of the Asus ROG qualifiers where the protoss player was able to recall to a nexus that was destroyed during the recall. I hope that that is addressed, because I don't think that should be able to happen. If the mothership core dies the recall doesn't happen, and if the targeted nexus is destroyed, either the recall doesn't happen or it goes to a different nexus. One thing I would very much like to see happen is there is a limited number of times a single pylon could warp-in units before it needs to cool down. Like a 4-6 warp-in at a time max before triggering a cool down. This would affect how aggressive a protoss could be and would effectively give a defender's advantage to protoss in pvp where most pylons would be in or near the base of the protoss. There would be a little higher of an investment to attack as more reinforcement pylons would be needed to effectively reinforce an offensive army especially with gateways totaling more than 4. The warp prism would also be affected as it would allow for 4 warp-ins max at a time considering that warp prism can only hold 4 gateway units at a time. A change to warp-in mechanics probably will not happen though. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16080 Posts
On January 03 2014 08:59 Aocowns wrote: Most of my hatred for mech in TvZ is based on not really knowing how to play against it I do admit, so my opinion is probably very amateur, but making the siege tank stronger would buff both the aggressive style and the turtle style, so it would be like they have the possibility to do a strong attack or sit back and turtle, both of which require a very different response, so for a mid-master zerg unable to read the game and respond perfectly, it would be retardedly frustrating I'd imagine, especially when you already have a terribly negative attitude towards mech in general. AND it also makes it easier to get to that almost unbeatable air composition It doesn't actually improve Tanks in a turtle style much. Reason being is that turtling on large numbers of Tanks becomes very hard to do once Hive Tech hits. Vipers and Broodlords both counter the Tank's ability to be used in a defensive way by design that has nothing to do with how much damage Tanks do. Again, the reason Mech works in TvZ is because of the Raven. The Raven is a strong answer to everything Zerg can throw at it in the late game once they are massed in enough numbers. | ||
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
On January 03 2014 08:38 Armada Vega wrote: well thats kind of the point to buffing mech. Like BW mech vs Protoss was very entertaining, and Vultures allowed terran to stay busy even if their main army couldn't move out right away. Goliaths were the same supply as tanks and didn't need add ons to be made from a factory, only an armory to be built. Goliaths were weaker but much faster and more mobile, with much higher dps(almost the same as a turret), and because more could be built for the price of a thor, more ground/air could be covered. The idea is, because sc2 mech is very weak against Protoss and not all that great until maxed in TvT, that there is a lot of turtling when going mech. If mech was buffed or made more viable, Mech users would move out more and trade armies more often, creating more interesting games. Of course this is the idea on paper, what those effective changes would be? nobody really knows because most of us look at it terms of what should be redesigned(fed up of the sc2 units that do exist, and what could happen in an expansion or new game), and not necessarily improving what already exists. BW TvP style would NOT work in SC2 though. As I posted before in this thread - the real problem for SC2 is it's economy. In BW the turtling player could have been punished by the opponent expanding more. This is not the case in SC2 because of it's economy cap at 3 bases. What exactly I mean by this: In BW when it was 40 workers vs 40 workers, 1 player turtling on 3 bases, the other player could have taken 5 bases and even with the same amount of workers, the player on 5 bases would have an advantage. This advantage would allow him to get more army and/or tech and effectively punish the turtling player. In TvP specifically that lead into waves of protoss units rushing into the almost-unbeateable terran deathball. In SC2 though, when it is 60 workers against 60 (using 60 as you need more workers in general in SC2), it DOESN'T MATTER if you have 3 bases or 5. You still have the same income. This sucks as it eliminates any opportunity for turtling player to be effectively punished. The mechanic I described above is imo one of the most important mechanic of any good RTS and SC2 is just lacking it. It was pointed out time after time by various members of community, and I just cannot imagine any reason why NOT TO implement something like this, as it would effectively get players a way to 'solve' all the worst things about SC2 that watchers hate - be it the WoL times of infestor/brood lord (yes, this would probably not happen with such a mechanic) or the protoss deathball turtling that we see throught both - WoL and HotS. And if mech will be buffed to the point of it being standard, it will bring the same deathball-style problems. The funniest thing is, no one EVER asked Dustin Browder (in interview or AMA) if they know about this, if they thought about it (or maybe they still do) and most importantly if there is any chance for it to be implemented. Because quite frankly, balance is not the problem of SC2, some of the design choices are. | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On January 03 2014 08:57 Vindicare605 wrote: the Strength of the Blink All in in the current metagame has as much to do with the map pool as anything else. If Blink continues to be a problem then changing the map pool to discourage it is a much cleaner fix than anything you can do through a balance patch. Nerfing Photon Overcharge means that Protoss has to actually play a tiny bit safer since their defense can't be so easily handled with one press of a hotkey, that affects the all in dynamic just as much as a direct nerf does. I don't agree, I think wide cliffs on the edge of bases are good. It helps terran get scouts in with reapers and also makes blink stalkers stronger in pvp which is quite skill based and fun. A different nerf to 2 base blink all ins would be better imo | ||
NonY
8749 Posts
PvZ: Neutral. Not a big deal. PvT: Gonna make the early game more rock-paper-scissors. If you lower the value of protoss defense, then the relative value of protoss offense is raised. Personally, I don't like it. I like playing defensively and this change is a straight nerf. And as far as I know, terran players like playing against me. What they hate the most is all the protoss early game shenanigans, none of which depend on a 60 second Photon Overcharge (and so aren't nerfed by this change). This nerf would make me take another look at proxy stargate, blink and dt openings. PvP: Don't like it. PvP was notoriously difficult to expand or tech. Photon Overcharge helped that a lot. The 20 seconds will cause significant regression. More tech builds will die to rushes. More expanders will die to 1base all-ins. | ||
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MrSusan
United Kingdom20 Posts
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On January 03 2014 09:00 Vindicare605 wrote: As per my post a couple pages back. regarding David Kim's proposed increase to armored damage. They aren't going to buff Siege Tank flat damage. Anyone with a brain knows that, it would absolutely destroy TvT and TvZ but increasing damage vs Armored does do a couple of interesting things to TvZ and TvP without having an enormous effect on the Tank's current power in TvT. tanks already shred marines, they dont need a buff for that. marauders are the main anti mech unit and a damage buff vs armored is pretty much the end for bio in TvT because of that. | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On January 03 2014 09:03 Vindicare605 wrote: It doesn't actually improve Tanks in a turtle style much. Reason being is that turtling on large numbers of Tanks becomes very hard to do once Hive Tech hits. Vipers and Broodlords both counter the Tank's ability to be used in a defensive way by design that has nothing to do with how much damage Tanks do. Again, the reason Mech works in TvZ is because of the Raven. The Raven is a strong answer to everything Zerg can throw at it in the late game once they are massed in enough numbers. yes, but that moment of uncertainty before hive hits is going to kill a lot of zergs. Is the terran gonna push out and try to kill me as a response to the fast hive tech? or maybe he doesn't have a soul, and opts to disregard the things I do and turtle? don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is or will be imbalanced, I'm just saying that 3 out of 4 games involving mech are really shitty and I'm scared shitless by the possibility of having to deal with mech more than once in every 5 games  | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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AKnopf
Germany259 Posts
I believe 40 seconds (thats 33%) is quite a change. Lets test it out and see where it lands. I believe in small changes, because they still have an bigger impact than one might imagine.  *thumbs up for blizzard* More diversity is the true balance that we should seek. | ||
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anestetic
13 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12262 Posts
Also roach rebuff seems too sudden. Mech changes are welcome. Maybe the thor could do with some help. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16080 Posts
On January 03 2014 09:06 Paljas wrote: tanks already shred marines, they dont need a buff for that. marauders are the main anti mech unit and a damage buff vs armored is pretty much the end for bio in TvT because of that. I just said that they aren't going to buff Mech damage vs Marines. It's something that straight up won't happen. The damage improvement against Marauders is actually not a big deal. Does it mean that charging Tank lines with straight Bio units becomes a little harder? Yes. Does it all change how immobile and vulnerable to drops Mech armies are? No. Bio wins vs Mech with mobility. If you try and brute force a Mech player with Bio you are doing it wrong. What a buff to armored damage does is SLIGHTLY improve the Tank's power at what it is already good at in a Mech vs Bio situation, but even more than that it improves the Siege Tank's defensive power against other Mech compositions. This means that using a Bio/Tank style becomes even better than it was before. It works out. Both playstyles receive benefits in TvT. | ||
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MoonyD
Australia191 Posts
The roach burrow movement buff should prove to be quite useful when playing protoss who open air with no robo tech/observers. As for the mech air buff, that's a bit un-necessary. Mass vikings with their range can already kite most air units (apart from maybe the tempest, but that's kinda the point). | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On January 03 2014 09:03 Ammanas wrote: BW TvP style would NOT work in SC2 though. As I posted before in this thread - the real problem for SC2 is it's economy. In BW the turtling player could have been punished by the opponent expanding more. This is not the case in SC2 because of it's economy cap at 3 bases. What exactly I mean by this: In BW when it was 40 workers vs 40 workers, 1 player turtling on 3 bases, the other player could have taken 5 bases and even with the same amount of workers, the player on 5 bases would have an advantage. This advantage would allow him to get more army and/or tech and effectively punish the turtling player. In TvP specifically that lead into waves of protoss units rushing into the almost-unbeateable terran deathball. In SC2 though, when it is 60 workers against 60 (using 60 as you need more workers in general in SC2), it DOESN'T MATTER if you have 3 bases or 5. You still have the same income. This sucks as it eliminates any opportunity for turtling player to be effectively punished. The mechanic I described above is imo one of the most important mechanic of any good RTS and SC2 is just lacking it. It was pointed out time after time by various members of community, and I just cannot imagine any reason why NOT TO implement something like this, as it would effectively get players a way to 'solve' all the worst things about SC2 that watchers hate - be it the WoL times of infestor/brood lord (yes, this would probably not happen with such a mechanic) or the protoss deathball turtling that we see throught both - WoL and HotS. And if mech will be buffed to the point of it being standard, it will bring the same deathball-style problems. The funniest thing is, no one EVER asked Dustin Browder (in interview or AMA) if they know about this, if they thought about it (or maybe they still do) and most importantly if there is any chance for it to be implemented. Because quite frankly, balance is not the problem of SC2, some of the design choices are. These are some very good points and most people probably havent thought about it. There might be a few minorities that have brought up this issues but the majority of the people are more worried about the units themselves. Fixing the mentioned points might fix the game, but blizzard is pretty short sighted and they will just fix the surface problem instead of the underlying problem. It is very unlikely that the economy thing will ever be changed because it would leads to a massive change in playstyle and strategy. While that is not necessarily a bad thing, blizzard approach now is to try and cater to the "casuals" as much as possible so they won't do that. Remember, this is the company that allowed close spawn for a year and a half because "casuals wont be able to learn the game if the map is too big". | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 03 2014 09:14 MoonyD wrote: Can't quite help but to feel with the PO nerf early game PvP expand builds will be dead. Plus, this is going to affect the PvT matchup in regards to templar opening quite dramatically. A 10 second nerf would be ok, but 20 seconds is a bit of an overkill in my opinion. The roach burrow movement buff should prove to be quite useful when playing protoss who open air with no robo tech/observers. As for the mech air buff, that's a bit un-necessary. Mass vikings with their range can already kite most air units (apart from maybe the tempest, but that's kinda the point). Oracle can detect | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16080 Posts
On January 03 2014 09:14 MoonyD wrote: Can't quite help but to feel with the PO nerf early game PvP expand builds will be dead. Plus, this is going to affect the PvT matchup in regards to templar opening quite dramatically. A 10 second nerf would be ok, but 20 seconds is a bit of an overkill in my opinion. The roach burrow movement buff should prove to be quite useful when playing protoss who open air with no robo tech/observers. As for the mech air buff, that's a bit un-necessary. Mass vikings with their range can already kite most air units (apart from maybe the tempest, but that's kinda the point). They aren't going to buff Sky-Terran in any significant way because of TvZ. It has nothing to do with TvP. | ||
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SemperSC
Canada117 Posts
Thors still seem ineffective in most compositions, it should maybe be looked at. Also, the Hellbat <> Hellion transformation service is never used and could use a cost reduction. | ||
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