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I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome.
Its not about super awesome its about viability..... we are saying not viable you are saying play better! Or Koreans (Taeja, Bomber, MMA, MVP, etc) don't know what they are doing thats why they aren't going mech in the highest level of play!
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On December 04 2013 04:36 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I just want it to be balance, a game too easy is not interesting at all. And there are some heavy evidence right now that point toward the fact that it's not the case at all.
You mean like the last three events won by a Terran, and Protoss and a Zerg? The game is in a good state balance wise. Nif people want more styles, that's great, but let's make more styles viable for all races, not just Terran.
Edit: fuck you auto correct, why would I want to type "mew"
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Tanks would be worse vs ultras.
In fact i would see rather an upgrade for tanks adding 10/15 damage vs shields.
And adding ground vikings to factory - then removing their armored tag (ground mode only)
Flying would be unlocked till transformation servos completed.
In fact double inflicting damage causes also double armor calculation into damage.
Early Roaches, Lategame ultras and.... Locusts would propably be more dangerous.
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On December 04 2013 04:39 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:28 Prog455 wrote:On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts? I think most people would agree that super-hardcounters are bad for the game, and that is pretty much what Immortals is to Tanks. They are insanely good. Agreed. I don't mind Immortals being good vs mech, but the way they work right now makes breaking tank-line a bit too effortless. I would prefer if Protoss had to use their mobility with warp-prisms and maybe stargate units in multiple locations to wear a mech player down rather than just ball up enough Immortals and walk through tank fire. Assuming you have Ghosts and EMP all of them, Immortals aren't absolutely terrible against tanks even then. Also, I personally think the general idea of having mech depend on ghosts (which makes your composition very gas heavy, especially considering you will most likely be exapading slower than the toss with mech) is a bit weird.
+1 this Agreed that hard counters are bad for the game. It was more beneficial to have armies that complimented each other rather then countered your opponent......
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this doesn't need to be a change, just an upgrade option to replace the old siege upgrade. double shot doubles firing rate and halves damage!
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ok, didn't read 9 pages, but isn't it bad against everything except immortals? ultras especially because of the high armor value? double attack means double the armor on every unit…
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In fact i would see rather an upgrade for tanks adding 10/15 damage vs shields.
And adding ground vikings to factory - then removing their armored tag (ground mode only)
Flying would be unlocked till transformation servos completed.
Interesting Idea but to be honest would wreck TvP lol Colossus timings would reign supreme vs Terran... lol
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On December 04 2013 04:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:58 GoOdy wrote:
I would not call that a good thought^^
He is just saying he has to scaut, if both options are possible and toss has a lot of different options to scaut: MSC, Obs, hallu, Oracle and it is very easy to scaut what composition the terran player is using, if there are 2+ Fax it is mech and if there are 2+ Rax its bio and then toss has still a lot of time to react^^
And you cant just tech switch like a zerg and fake a 5 rax opening and then go for mech^^ That's a dynamic that flat out favors the terran: it creates a game where terran gets a huge advantage through denial of scouting, hiding or disguising tech paths. Protoss compositions will be at best equal, and Terran is the race that makes all the decisions: toss just reacts constantly. Unless it becomes impossible for terran to ever deny scouting from Protoss (I see the first observer get sniped all the time) or to hide buildings so that toss can perfectly scout, it's gonna favor terran here. Now, I know you're thinking "Well toss does this all the time!" Yeah, toss hides tech to get a short term compositional advantage, often for a timing or all-in, but in Toss's case it's very short term and it's currently balanced that way (winrates, etc.) Throw in Terran doing it too and I dunno how you're going to compensate Toss for Terran's additional strength.
This just blows me away. We are not talking about hiding a stargate in an obscure corner or a Spire under an Overlord, we are talking about the entire production infrastructure of a race. Disguise tech? Like what? Build 3 factories to fool him and secretly go bio?
Come on now, i love Nony but this is not very well thought out. Even if there might be some "i didn't know he was going mech" type of loses, it would only be for a short time until builds get maped out and scouting becomes more precise.
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On December 04 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:36 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I just want it to be balance, a game too easy is not interesting at all. And there are some heavy evidence right now that point toward the fact that it's not the case at all. You mew like the last three events won by a Terran, and Protoss and a Zerg? The game is in a good state balance wise. Nif people want more styles, that's great, but let's make more styles viable for all races, not just Terran.
It's not because Taeja is godlike that the game is even, look at a bigger sample, like Aligulac November results for exemple. Or the GM league racial distribution. Look at all the whine on the forum, look everywhere goddamit.
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On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome.
I don't see how it WOULD be hard to deal with, though. Scouting that a Terran is going mech is going to take you ten seconds with a hallucinated phoenix. Mech should build up too slowly to be a threat before long after you've already scouted it. If someone ever gets blind-sided by mech, I think he's doing it wrong.
And besides, Terran already have to deal with a whole bunch of different Protoss openers the way things work now, and even after that Protoss can choose to go HT or Colossus first, prompting different responses from the Terran. Terran used to have the option to go Bio+Hellbat at least, but that was before Hellbats were nerfed to the point of barely ever being used in the match-up.
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On December 04 2013 04:45 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:36 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I just want it to be balance, a game too easy is not interesting at all. And there are some heavy evidence right now that point toward the fact that it's not the case at all. You mew like the last three events won by a Terran, and Protoss and a Zerg? The game is in a good state balance wise. Nif people want more styles, that's great, but let's make more styles viable for all races, not just Terran. It's not because Taeja is godlike that the game is even, look at a bigger sample, like Aligulac November results for exemple. Or the GM league racial distribution. Look at all the whine on the forum, look everywhere goddamit.
Taeja is just good at winning, but that doesn't make him magic. He still won against skilled opponents using Terran. And balance whine on forums does prove anything. That's like saying a lot of people agreed with Idra, so Zerg must be weak.
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On December 04 2013 04:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:17 Whitewing wrote:On December 04 2013 03:58 GoOdy wrote:
I would not call that a good thought^^
He is just saying he has to scaut, if both options are possible and toss has a lot of different options to scaut: MSC, Obs, hallu, Oracle and it is very easy to scaut what composition the terran player is using, if there are 2+ Fax it is mech and if there are 2+ Rax its bio and then toss has still a lot of time to react^^
And you cant just tech switch like a zerg and fake a 5 rax opening and then go for mech^^ That's a dynamic that flat out favors the terran: it creates a game where terran gets a huge advantage through denial of scouting, hiding or disguising tech paths. Protoss compositions will be at best equal, and Terran is the race that makes all the decisions: toss just reacts constantly. Unless it becomes impossible for terran to ever deny scouting from Protoss (I see the first observer get sniped all the time) or to hide buildings so that toss can perfectly scout, it's gonna favor terran here. Now, I know you're thinking "Well toss does this all the time!" Yeah, toss hides tech to get a short term compositional advantage, often for a timing or all-in, but in Toss's case it's very short term and it's currently balanced that way (winrates, etc.) Throw in Terran doing it too and I dunno how you're going to compensate Toss for Terran's additional strength. This just blows me away. We are not talking about hiding a stargate in an obscure corner or a Spire under an Overlord, we are talking about the entire production infrastructure of a race. Disguise tech? Like what? Build 3 factories to fool him and secretly go bio? Come on now, i love Nony but this is not very well thought out. Even if there might be some "i didn't know he was going mech" type of loses, it would only be for a short time until builds get maped out and scouting becomes more precise.
Yeah, it's not like terran already scout for everything like baws and guess what shit will comes at them. I imagine the protoss at 17min : "OMG I DIDNT KNOW HE WAS GOING MECH LOL". Terran just CAN'T switch tech except lategame => Skyterran and still, very hard to do.
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On December 04 2013 04:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:45 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:36 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I just want it to be balance, a game too easy is not interesting at all. And there are some heavy evidence right now that point toward the fact that it's not the case at all. You mew like the last three events won by a Terran, and Protoss and a Zerg? The game is in a good state balance wise. Nif people want more styles, that's great, but let's make more styles viable for all races, not just Terran. It's not because Taeja is godlike that the game is even, look at a bigger sample, like Aligulac November results for exemple. Or the GM league racial distribution. Look at all the whine on the forum, look everywhere goddamit. Taeja is just good at winning, but that doesn't make him magic. He still won against skilled opponents using Terran. And balance whine on forums does prove anything. That's like saying a lot of people agreed with Idra, so Zerg must be weak.
And GM racial distribution ? Aligulac stats ? Not relevent either ?
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I really like the suggestion. It helps really only versus immortals and doesn't effect the other matchups too adversely.
That being said, I didn't see if Mvp tried this or not when he tried Mech vP at IEM but I feel like a handful of ghosts could make a world of difference. Again, not sure if this has been tried but it's food for thought.
Alternatively, this solution is a little more "elegant" but would get the job done all the same.
On December 03 2013 21:55 shadymmj wrote:
A more elegant solution will be to make attacks that do under 30 damage be reduced to 10 damage against hardened shields, and those that do 31 and over be reduced to 20 damage. Just an alternative idea.
Personally, I'd like to see an upgrade that maybe makes them stronger versus shields and does something else, to replace the lost siege mode upgrade. This might help too, but would have to be tuned more carefully.
Just my two cents.
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And what about adding the warhound again?
On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts?
+1
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On December 04 2013 04:46 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I don't see how it WOULD be hard to deal with, though. Scouting that a Terran is going mech is going to take you ten seconds with a hallucinated phoenix. Mech should build up too slowly to be a threat before long after you've already scouted it. If someone ever gets blind-sided by mech, I think he's doing it wrong. And besides, Terran already have to deal with a whole bunch of different Protoss openers the way things work now, and even after that Protoss can choose to go HT or Colossus first, prompting different responses from the Terran. Terran used to have the option to go Bio+Hellbat at least, but that was before Hellbats were nerfed to the point of barely ever being used in the match-up.
We would have to see the timings people would come up with, but I could see Protoss being stuck acting with limited information. It's not bad that bad with the MSC, but Protoss can get pretty rail roaded once they decide on a tech path. It could be the same problems Terran has sniffing out proxy star gates, that it cost to much to do it so early in the game. Bit that is just my thoughts.
As I said before, I am pro Terran being able to go mech, as long as it makes Protoss more fun to play too.
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Taeja is just good at winning, but that doesn't make him magic. He still won against skilled opponents using Terran. And balance whine on forums does prove anything. That's like saying a lot of people agreed with Idra, so Zerg must be weak.
Lets put it this way even if marines had 1 HP and tanks did 1 DMG Taeja would micro the tanks and slow push you with bunkers to win....... I don't believe you could ever throw something at the Terran race that would make him fall off the scene giving his current state of play LOL
I personally think looking at 2 things screams something is wrong to me.... #1 Foreign Terrans don't make it anywhere in tournaments #2 Racial distribution is so skewed for Terrans vs Toss that it should say something......
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On December 04 2013 04:50 TheZanthex wrote:Alternatively, this solution is a little more "elegant" but would get the job done all the same. Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:55 shadymmj wrote:
A more elegant solution will be to make attacks that do under 30 damage be reduced to 10 damage against hardened shields, and those that do 31 and over be reduced to 20 damage. Just an alternative idea.
It's a cool idea, but it also makes the mechanics regarding the Hardened shields a bit more complicated. I'm pretty sure Blizzard have said that they prefer for the basic game mechanics to be fairly simple and not rely on intricate rules and exceptions, so I doubt they will implement something like that.
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On December 04 2013 04:49 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:48 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:45 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:36 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I just want it to be balance, a game too easy is not interesting at all. And there are some heavy evidence right now that point toward the fact that it's not the case at all. You mew like the last three events won by a Terran, and Protoss and a Zerg? The game is in a good state balance wise. Nif people want more styles, that's great, but let's make more styles viable for all races, not just Terran. It's not because Taeja is godlike that the game is even, look at a bigger sample, like Aligulac November results for exemple. Or the GM league racial distribution. Look at all the whine on the forum, look everywhere goddamit. Taeja is just good at winning, but that doesn't make him magic. He still won against skilled opponents using Terran. And balance whine on forums does prove anything. That's like saying a lot of people agreed with Idra, so Zerg must be weak. And GM racial distribution ? Aligulac stats ? Not relevent either ?
Nope, GM proves very little because it is first come, first served, rather than a flat out rank. And monthly numbers are just that, monthly trends. As long as the pros are winning, we all have something to shoot for with each of our races.
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I dunno.... I'd have to disagree with Nony. An anti-bio composition vs anti-mech composition for protoss come out of the same production facilities minus the stargate. You can almost immediately go anti-mech off the old infrastructure so the switch would not be that hard.
Further, protoss has many many ways of cheap scouting including hallucinations and observers that zergs never had in the old ZvP matchup before speed ovies and overlord speed upgrade change in HoTs.
Map balance should be a consideration not in the balance of units, but of the maps themselves. This can be implemented by tournaments and is not actually a factor here as long as there are vetos. There are already maps that are more advantaged for certain compositions.
That said: bio = antibio (with protoss favored because of the all ins beginning game imo) bio> antimech, mech< antimech mech = antibio (that's what I would argue with the easy infrastructure swap for toss)
Edit: occurred to me that it may be possible to balance mech and keep bio the same if you made mech = antimech and > antibio by just leaving protoss be as they are right now. Lets face it, HoTs protoss has had many buffs compared to the WoL PvT matchup, and the new oracles might be the balancing act they need.
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EPT
