On December 04 2013 03:58 GoOdy wrote: I would not call that a good thought^^ He is just saying he has to scaut, if both options are possible and toss has a lot of different options to scaut: MSC, Obs, hallu, Oracle and it is very easy to scaut what composition the terran player is using, if there are 2+ Fax it is mech and if there are 2+ Rax its bio and then toss has still a lot of time to react^^ And you cant just tech switch like a zerg and fake a 5 rax opening and then go for mech^^
That's not what he's saying. He's saying that if Mech and Bio are both favored when protoss does the wrong comp and equal when protoss does the best anti- Mech/Bio build that's appropriate, then you have a dynamic that favors terran: the same dynamic that caused such serious problems in PvZ.
Consider: Protoss has two choices of general compositions in PvT: Anti-Bio and Anti-Mech. If you buff mech to be a 50% winrate vs. Anti-Mech, you get the following results: Anti-Bio, Equal vs. Bio, Weak vs. Mech. Anti-Mech, Equal vs. Mech, Weak vs. Bio. Terran side: Mech: Equal vs. Anti-Mech, Strong vs. Anti-Bio. Bio: Equal vs. Anti-Bio, Strong vs. Anti-Mech.
That's a dynamic that flat out favors the terran: it creates a game where terran gets a huge advantage through denial of scouting, hiding or disguising tech paths. Protoss compositions will be at best equal, and Terran is the race that makes all the decisions: toss just reacts constantly. Unless it becomes impossible for terran to ever deny scouting from Protoss (I see the first observer get sniped all the time) or to hide buildings so that toss can perfectly scout, it's gonna favor terran here. Now, I know you're thinking "Well toss does this all the time!" Yeah, toss hides tech to get a short term compositional advantage, often for a timing or all-in, but in Toss's case it's very short term and it's currently balanced that way (winrates, etc.) Throw in Terran doing it too and I dunno how you're going to compensate Toss for Terran's additional strength.
Then, throw in maps that make Mech stronger than average, and you'll wind up having games where toss just all-ins every game.
It's a good thought because the consequences of the buff without any nerf to bio to compensate for the overall increase in terran strength is non-trivial, and it's very hard to nerf bio without breaking everything all over the place.
In short, Nony is basically saying: If you buff Mech with no other changes to terran, you are giving terran a flat out buff as a cohesive race. This can break the game in several ways, and it's likely to force Protoss into doing a hell of a lot of all-ins in the long run. Unless you want to force Protoss players to just all-in most games, especially on mech preferred maps, you can't just buff mech flat out.
On December 04 2013 03:58 GoOdy wrote: I would not call that a good thought^^ He is just saying he has to scaut, if both options are possible and toss has a lot of different options to scaut: MSC, Obs, hallu, Oracle and it is very easy to scaut what composition the terran player is using, if there are 2+ Fax it is mech and if there are 2+ Rax its bio and then toss has still a lot of time to react^^ And you cant just tech switch like a zerg and fake a 5 rax opening and then go for mech^^
Yeah, Nony's video is horrible and biased, I honestly expected more out of him
On December 04 2013 03:50 Whitewing wrote: NonY posted this earlier today about mech:
Good thoughts.
proposes nothing, wants to nerf bio while talking about mech? i am sorry but that were 8 minutes wasted, because bio is equal and mech is inferior, not how he described it at all!
also toss has no problem scouting and already has strong allins while msc offers protection... so i dont even get the point of his rambling, of course i am biased but the lack of actual content in favor of fortunetelling is apparent... especially his "antimech army loses to bio army" where would terran be allowed to techswitch unscouted over the course of 10 minutes to 3/3 200/200 bio? its unfathomable.
On December 04 2013 03:10 EatThePath wrote: I'd rather that instead of changing the basic tank functionality, there be a techlab researchable upgrade that makes the tank stronger by giving it extra attacks. Something like what the warhound had that is good at bringing down shields in multiple parts.
200/200 70s Cluster Shards -- Each shot in siege mode releases 4 additional very small AoE detonations of 5 damage each.
^ The shards would be randomly dispersed around the target so you'd probably hit only 1 or 2 on the actual unit that the tank was shooting at. Gets much stronger against masses with multiple tanks shooting. This allows for smart engagement micro to minimize the boost of the upgrade. (Flanking with some solitary units to draw shots... like BW.)
This would only help tanks against immortals when there is a deathball of tanks, which is not really what we want imo.
That brings me to another point about tanks. Having one or two stationed somewhere for defense isn't very effective unless getting in range to kill them is very costly (like when they are behind a pf, or protected by a group of battle hellions). So most of the time you have to keep them all together in your army. But in bw, if you set up a a few mines and turret on a ramp and put a couple tanks behind, this was enough to defend an expansion against small attacks and allowed the vultures to be part of the main army (or used to harass), which is one very important use of tanks that I think people forget.
In sc2, defending a base with small supply as terran requires a PF, but this limits where tanks can be placed and forces the terran to take an economic hit. I'd love to see some kind of new tool for terrans that synergizes with tanks to fortify a base against light attacks without committing a lot of supply or taking a long-term economic hit.
On December 04 2013 03:58 GoOdy wrote: I would not call that a good thought^^ He is just saying he has to scaut, if both options are possible and toss has a lot of different options to scaut: MSC, Obs, hallu, Oracle and it is very easy to scaut what composition the terran player is using, if there are 2+ Fax it is mech and if there are 2+ Rax its bio and then toss has still a lot of time to react^^ And you cant just tech switch like a zerg and fake a 5 rax opening and then go for mech^^
That's not what he's saying. He's saying that if Mech and Bio are both favored when protoss does the wrong comp and equal when protoss does the best anti- Mech/Bio build that's appropriate, then you have a dynamic that favors terran: the same dynamic that caused such serious problems in PvZ.
Consider: Protoss has two choices of general compositions in PvT: Anti-Bio and Anti-Mech. If you buff mech to be a 50% winrate vs. Anti-Mech, you get the following results: Anti-Bio, Equal vs. Bio, Weak vs. Mech. Anti-Mech, Equal vs. Mech, Weak vs. Bio. Terran side: Mech: Equal vs. Anti-Mech, Strong vs. Anti-Bio. Bio: Equal vs. Anti-Bio, Strong vs. Anti-Mech.
That's a dynamic that flat out favors the terran: it creates a game where terran gets a huge advantage through denial of scouting, hiding or disguising tech paths. Protoss compositions will be at best equal, and Terran is the race that makes all the decisions: toss just reacts constantly.
Then, throw in maps that make Mech stronger than average, and you'll wind up having games where toss just all-ins every game.
It's a good thought because the consequences of the buff without any nerf to bio to compensate for the overall increase in terran strength is non-trivial, and it's very hard to nerf bio without breaking everything all over the place.
thats how it should be, if u play bio with double starport vs storm u are behind, if u make the right units its equal, thats why u have to scaut
On December 04 2013 03:58 GoOdy wrote: I would not call that a good thought^^ He is just saying he has to scaut, if both options are possible and toss has a lot of different options to scaut: MSC, Obs, hallu, Oracle and it is very easy to scaut what composition the terran player is using, if there are 2+ Fax it is mech and if there are 2+ Rax its bio and then toss has still a lot of time to react^^ And you cant just tech switch like a zerg and fake a 5 rax opening and then go for mech^^
That's not what he's saying. He's saying that if Mech and Bio are both favored when protoss does the wrong comp and equal when protoss does the best anti- Mech/Bio build that's appropriate, then you have a dynamic that favors terran: the same dynamic that caused such serious problems in PvZ.
Consider: Protoss has two choices of general compositions in PvT: Anti-Bio and Anti-Mech. If you buff mech to be a 50% winrate vs. Anti-Mech, you get the following results: Anti-Bio, Equal vs. Bio, Weak vs. Mech. Anti-Mech, Equal vs. Mech, Weak vs. Bio. Terran side: Mech: Equal vs. Anti-Mech, Strong vs. Anti-Bio. Bio: Equal vs. Anti-Bio, Strong vs. Anti-Mech.
That's a dynamic that flat out favors the terran: it creates a game where terran gets a huge advantage through denial of scouting, hiding or disguising tech paths. Protoss compositions will be at best equal, and Terran is the race that makes all the decisions: toss just reacts constantly.
Then, throw in maps that make Mech stronger than average, and you'll wind up having games where toss just all-ins every game.
It's a good thought because the consequences of the buff without any nerf to bio to compensate for the overall increase in terran strength is non-trivial, and it's very hard to nerf bio without breaking everything all over the place.
This is incredibly naive and shows you don't play Terran at all..... Bio essentially has a 4-5 minute window to do sufficient damage to stay in the late game at best. Protoss force vses Terran force is not 50% right now.... its about the timings of the match up and your percentage to win at specific times of the game vsesthe percentage you will take the game further not about this army could go either way vs this army LOL Honestly thats the way it should be but its definitely not.... Also we as terran already have this problemw ith protoss so why not give this tool to terran? If we build Vikings when you went robo what percentage are vikings going to win against Templar tech? Between all of the mechanics protoss has to scout you most certainly will be able to transition into what you need to so that you can stay in teh game and still be greedy with the protection of the sacred MSC........
Edit: and Proof of this is definitely in the pudding that something needs to be done otherwise we wouldn't have even see the invention of the SCV pull where the only reason its performed is because a Bio Force vses Protoss Force is significantly in the favor of protoss...... So when a terran is ahead they try to take advantage of that because their chance to win will drastically decrease as the protoss gains a bigger army......
On December 04 2013 03:58 GoOdy wrote: I would not call that a good thought^^ He is just saying he has to scaut, if both options are possible and toss has a lot of different options to scaut: MSC, Obs, hallu, Oracle and it is very easy to scaut what composition the terran player is using, if there are 2+ Fax it is mech and if there are 2+ Rax its bio and then toss has still a lot of time to react^^ And you cant just tech switch like a zerg and fake a 5 rax opening and then go for mech^^
Yeah, Nony's video is horrible and biased, I honestly expected more out of him
As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better.
This idea is genuinely genious. Maybe alongside with removing the bio tag from hellbats, which actually makes them worse against archons, it might cause us to see some mech against p.
As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better.
Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better?
I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL
Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it .....
I like your idea, Goody. And I don't think it would make mech too OP. I still like the really old idea of Lalush the best though. Make hardened shield a weaker, active ability that also protects units around the immortal, somewhat like guardian shield. Maybe with a slight buff of tanks. That would turn a fight against a mech army into more than just a-move.
On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote: idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts?
I think most people would agree that super-hardcounters are bad for the game, and that is pretty much what Immortals is to Tanks. They are insanely good.
I don't agree with him at all. His main point is that the current situation (Bio=Antibio; Bio>Antimech; Mech>Antibio; Mech<Antimech) is fine, because Terran is favored in 2 of 4 cases. He somehow thinks its fine to be favored as Toss if you are are able to identify a Mech build. This may sound hard, but IMHO scouting the general tech choice of a Terran should be not a problem for any Toss above Gold liga. This should not be something that puts you ahead like it does right now if you scout Mech. I also don't understand his fear of map specific play-style choice.
If Mech was a real alternative the game would be better. Balance is really not an issue here.
This hadn't any substance according the issue that we'r talking about here. The terran tech switching is the slowest and resource hogging thing to do. In case that you really do it you'll need to have it planned out by situation. Generally it just doesn't work.
That bullcrap about all-inning was just plain dumb. Have Nony watched FE. avilo ever? He has the meta in somewhat shape, and prob one of the minor ppl who can play mech even though he gets opponent that just purely meta-games his builds. But sometimes the harrashment from P and the immobility just rips you apart. Only way to properly mech is turtle like a cunt. Although the TvP meching is really inconsistent and risky but it can be done, but not whitout superior effort. The dependency of ravens is just silly.
Once more, i think we just need to sit and wait for the LOTV to see if they even bother to revive mech. They have just given us blank words and done nothing to fix it.
On December 04 2013 03:58 GoOdy wrote: I would not call that a good thought^^ He is just saying he has to scaut, if both options are possible and toss has a lot of different options to scaut: MSC, Obs, hallu, Oracle and it is very easy to scaut what composition the terran player is using, if there are 2+ Fax it is mech and if there are 2+ Rax its bio and then toss has still a lot of time to react^^ And you cant just tech switch like a zerg and fake a 5 rax opening and then go for mech^^
Exactly this. It's the same in TvT where the bio player starts to "adapt" by adding Marauders and less Marines, it's the same in TvZ where Zerg goes Roach Hidra Viper or SH instead of ling muta...
You scout Terran and adapt. Or i'm completely misunderstanding Nony.
As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better.
Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better?
I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL
Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it .....
It's Plansix, he's platinium and doesn't undestand the game very well, he doesn't see that there is a problem in TvP actually. Like MMA losing 3-1 ton San against proxy oracle vsreaper expand and he couldn't do a thing even after scouting it.
As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better.
Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better?
I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL
Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it .....
I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome.
As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better.
Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better?
I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL
Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it .....
It's Plansix, he's platinium and doesn't undestand the game very well, he doesn't see that there is a problem in TvP actually. Like MMA losing 3-1 ton San against proxy oracle vs oracle expand and he couldn't do a thing even after scouting it.
Yeah this guy is in the hall of fame on biased flaming on this site, so i wouldn't take his words too seriously.
As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better.
Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better?
I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL
Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it .....
It's Plansix, he's platinium and doesn't undestand the game very well, he doesn't see that there is a problem in TvP actually. Like MMA losing 3-1 ton San against proxy oracle vs oracle expand and he couldn't do a thing even after scouting it.
Yeah, but I know why I am in the league I am in, unlike some players who will blame everything else but themselves for their own mistakes.
As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better.
Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better?
I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL
Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it .....
I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome.
I just want it to be balance, a game too easy is not interesting at all. And there are some heavy evidence right now that point toward the fact that it's not the case at all.
On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote: idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts?
I think most people would agree that super-hardcounters are bad for the game, and that is pretty much what Immortals is to Tanks. They are insanely good.
Agreed. I don't mind Immortals being good vs mech, but the way they work right now makes breaking tank-line a bit too effortless. I would prefer if Protoss had to use their mobility with warp-prisms and maybe stargate units in multiple locations to wear a mech player down rather than just ball up enough Immortals and walk through tank fire. Assuming you have Ghosts and EMP all of them, Immortals aren't absolutely terrible against tanks even then.
Also, I personally think the general idea of having mech depend on ghosts (which makes your composition very gas heavy, especially considering you will most likely be exapading slower than the toss with mech) is a bit weird.
EPT
