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On December 04 2013 04:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:49 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:48 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:45 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:36 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I just want it to be balance, a game too easy is not interesting at all. And there are some heavy evidence right now that point toward the fact that it's not the case at all. You mew like the last three events won by a Terran, and Protoss and a Zerg? The game is in a good state balance wise. Nif people want more styles, that's great, but let's make more styles viable for all races, not just Terran. It's not because Taeja is godlike that the game is even, look at a bigger sample, like Aligulac November results for exemple. Or the GM league racial distribution. Look at all the whine on the forum, look everywhere goddamit. Taeja is just good at winning, but that doesn't make him magic. He still won against skilled opponents using Terran. And balance whine on forums does prove anything. That's like saying a lot of people agreed with Idra, so Zerg must be weak. And GM racial distribution ? Aligulac stats ? Not relevent either ? Nope, GM proves very little because it is first come, first served, rather than a flat out rank. And monthly numbers are just that, monthly trends. As long as the pros are winning, we all have something to shoot for with each of our races.
And how comes only protoss are the "first-comers" ? Because there are less terrans in High Master ? Why ?
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On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts?
People do make ghosts and they still cant make mech work consistently. Lets leave posts like this to the Bnet forums.
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Nony's point is valid in theory but it's so easy to scout mech that it's not too relevant. The anti-bio and anti-mech strategy have enough overlap that you can pretty much always scout before the point of divergence. For example a standard expo build into stargate, robo or even blink works fine against both styles and by the time you make further decisions you will pretty much know what terran is doing since it's the easiest thing to scout in all of starcraft probably, 2+ factories mech, 2+ rax bio.
Of course there will still be advantages from having two viable styles, which I think will mostly be apparent in all-ins actually. For example a 2 base colossus all-in is a decent choice now that is often an ok choice if you know they teched late, because it has a good shot to straight up win against bio and if they do go mech that style is bad enough to make up the deficit. If mech was good though that all-in would be too risky because it doesn't break anything with tanks. All-ins becoming slightly worse is not so bad though but for overall balance there would of course have to be some compensation.
The issue is too minor to be relevant though. If terran get's an advantage eventually because they have 2 viable styles which require vastly different responses it's not too hard to nerf them both a little bit later (medivac would be a simple choice). The theoretical problem that the game becomes too much guessing is exagerated I think. It could be that a matchup is balanced because player A has to guess what B is doing, if he guesses right he is favored and if he does not the other is favored averaging out as balanced (PvP had this, I don't get why nony claims this for PvZ in the past?). This issue only pops up if the cost of scouting is too high, for example in PvP before you generally couldn't scout the tech choice except with your own tech choice at which point you already made the decision. Protoss however has no problem scouting terran whatsoever, especially with stargate play now and Zerg doesn't face this problem of having to guess at all because they can choose very late what unit to go for.
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On December 04 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:46 RaZorwire wrote:On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I don't see how it WOULD be hard to deal with, though. Scouting that a Terran is going mech is going to take you ten seconds with a hallucinated phoenix. Mech should build up too slowly to be a threat before long after you've already scouted it. If someone ever gets blind-sided by mech, I think he's doing it wrong. And besides, Terran already have to deal with a whole bunch of different Protoss openers the way things work now, and even after that Protoss can choose to go HT or Colossus first, prompting different responses from the Terran. Terran used to have the option to go Bio+Hellbat at least, but that was before Hellbats were nerfed to the point of barely ever being used in the match-up. We would have to see the timings people would come up with, but I could see Protoss being stuck acting with limited information. It's not bad that bad with the MSC, but Protoss can get pretty rail roaded once they decide on a tech path. It could be the same problems Terran has sniffing out proxy star gates, that it cost to much to do it so early in the game. Bit that is just my thoughts. As I said before, I am pro Terran being able to go mech, as long as it makes Protoss more fun to play too.
I see what you're saying, but if anything, Terran is the race that is rail roaded the most in tech, almost no matter what. They generally require more production facilities + add-ons than toss and don't have the versatility of the warp-gate to compensate, either. Proxy Stargates are hard to find because they happen in the early game, when what you have is a reaper and maybe an SCV if you can spare one. Mech is not going to suddenly hit you at 7 minutes. With Oracles, observers and hallucinated phoenixes you should be able to find out what composition the Terran is doing long before a mech army becomes a threat. The only thing I can think of that would be problematic to scout for is banshee openings, but that's not really any worse than a proxy stargate.
And yeah, I think Protoss would be more fun to play if mech was better. Stargate play, warp-prism harass and attacking from multiple sides rather than focusing on one big engagement would probably be the way to go. I'm no Protoss but that seems ok to me, entertainment wise. 
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On December 04 2013 04:58 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:57 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:49 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:48 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:45 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:36 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:As opposed to this thread where people want a flat out buff to Terran? I think new comps and styles are cool, but it's still a buff that makes terrans better. Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better? I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I just want it to be balance, a game too easy is not interesting at all. And there are some heavy evidence right now that point toward the fact that it's not the case at all. You mew like the last three events won by a Terran, and Protoss and a Zerg? The game is in a good state balance wise. Nif people want more styles, that's great, but let's make more styles viable for all races, not just Terran. It's not because Taeja is godlike that the game is even, look at a bigger sample, like Aligulac November results for exemple. Or the GM league racial distribution. Look at all the whine on the forum, look everywhere goddamit. Taeja is just good at winning, but that doesn't make him magic. He still won against skilled opponents using Terran. And balance whine on forums does prove anything. That's like saying a lot of people agreed with Idra, so Zerg must be weak. And GM racial distribution ? Aligulac stats ? Not relevent either ? Nope, GM proves very little because it is first come, first served, rather than a flat out rank. And monthly numbers are just that, monthly trends. As long as the pros are winning, we all have something to shoot for with each of our races. And how comes only protoss are the "first-comers" ? Because there are less terrans in High Master ? Why ?
Because Protoss is the ez pz race and only Koreans can make Terran good? Not your to busy whining at platinum scrubs like me and not working on getting better?
Edit: ok lunch break over. Back to ruining lives.
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Because Protoss is the ez pz race and only Koreans can make Terran good? Not your to busy whining at platinum scrubs like me and now working on getting better?
Hey Hey i'm neglecting my work duties for this thats why i'm not on the ladder getting better  and instead whining at platinum scrubs like you hahahaha Plansix we all agree you have passion but I dont know about your take on situations on this .....
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On December 03 2013 22:10 KnowMe wrote:
i think you should also put tiny emps in tankshots so you dont need many shots for archons any more.
seriously goody: mech is quite strong against protoss as it is. immortals are supposed to give protoss a fighting chance. also you usually add ghosts very quickly anyway. no need to buff you any further
LOL nice joke. tvp mech strong apparently according to this guy.
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I hope one day 1-2 pro gamers will start open and play only air toss and queue up 5 carriers / stargate then make threads suggesting how a buff to stargate units would make it a viable standard opening . Only then shall we have a game with completly different openings and styles !
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On December 04 2013 05:14 xsnac wrote:
I hope one day 1-2 pro gamers will start open and play only air toss and queue up 5 carriers / stargate then make threads suggesting how a buff to stargate units would make it a viable standard opening . Only then shall we have a game with completly different openings and styles !
The same exact thing could be done whit bcs (= What if the scenario was that the WG units would dominate, and the robo play was lacking something big time, so much that it wouldnt be used much in competitive play. Wouldnt you adress that, no?
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On December 04 2013 05:09 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +Because Protoss is the ez pz race and only Koreans can make Terran good? Not your to busy whining at platinum scrubs like me and now working on getting better? Hey Hey i'm neglecting my work duties for this thats why i'm not on the ladder getting better and instead whining at platinum scrubs like you hahahaha Plansix we all agree you have passion but I dont know about your take on situations on this .....
I would be way better if I could play sc2 on my lunch break. Sadly my wood PC is only capable of writing word docs and emails. And no cases were harmed due to this discussion.
The true solution: make hellbat a transform 10 times faster and be able to jump down cliffs(but not up). Dukes of hazard style.
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How many ppl tried test map yet? I think with this buff, mech will be so hard to counter as Protoss.
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On December 04 2013 05:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:58 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:57 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:49 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:48 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:45 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:36 Faust852 wrote:On December 04 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 04:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:
[quote]
Thats the point of a Buff no? to make something better LOL That is why they gave a buff to oracle correct? To make it better?
I'm sure your next statement will be about how the top koreans are winning tournaments... so just play better LOL
Instead of David kim saying that to people that lost the oracle he said ok here is a buff LOL when there was no need for it ..... I am just pointing out that we are all bias towards our own race. If nony sees flaws with having tow perfectly viable play styles and that it could be hard for Protoss deal with. If people are going to calm bias, then we should just ignore everyone because we all want our race to be super awesome. I just want it to be balance, a game too easy is not interesting at all. And there are some heavy evidence right now that point toward the fact that it's not the case at all. You mew like the last three events won by a Terran, and Protoss and a Zerg? The game is in a good state balance wise. Nif people want more styles, that's great, but let's make more styles viable for all races, not just Terran. It's not because Taeja is godlike that the game is even, look at a bigger sample, like Aligulac November results for exemple. Or the GM league racial distribution. Look at all the whine on the forum, look everywhere goddamit. Taeja is just good at winning, but that doesn't make him magic. He still won against skilled opponents using Terran. And balance whine on forums does prove anything. That's like saying a lot of people agreed with Idra, so Zerg must be weak. And GM racial distribution ? Aligulac stats ? Not relevent either ? Nope, GM proves very little because it is first come, first served, rather than a flat out rank. And monthly numbers are just that, monthly trends. As long as the pros are winning, we all have something to shoot for with each of our races. And how comes only protoss are the "first-comers" ? Because there are less terrans in High Master ? Why ? Because Protoss is the ez pz race and only Koreans can make Terran good? Not your to busy whining at platinum scrubs like me and not working on getting better? Edit: ok lunch break over. Back to ruining lives.
Oh man.
I really, REALLY wish people would stop using this worthless "You are just no focusing on improving enough, dürp"-excuse as soon as someone makes a statement on balance. It's a generic, lazy accusation that is based on broken logic (complaining on a forum AND trying to improve are not mutually exclusive, gasp), and in this particular case it doesn't even make any sense. The post you replied to doesn't even have anything to do with how any individual player on this forum is doing in TvP, it was based on objective, pro-level statistics and GM race distributions. Protoss won't disappear from GM because the guy above you focuses on improving. No idea why you would bring that up.
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I hope one day 1-2 pro gamers will start open and play only air toss and queue up 5 carriers / stargate then make threads suggesting how a buff to stargate units would make it a viable standard opening . Only then shall we have a game with completly different openings and styles !
Stargate is already a viable opening.... You are disproving your own point while thinking you are disproving ours.... hahaha
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I would be way better if I could play sc2 on my lunch break. Sadly my wood PC is only capable of writing word docs and emails. And no cases were harmed due to this discussion.
The true solution: make hellbat a transform 10 times faster and be able to jump down cliffs(but not up). Dukes of hazard style.
I approve this but only if we get the horn chime to go with it
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as a protoss who struggles against mech currently, i approve of this message, looks like a solid change to force the protoss to have to micro either air units or more wp/drop play.
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On December 04 2013 02:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:18 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On December 04 2013 02:14 TAMinator wrote:
nah, just make ghosts. This change will make the match up look very boring. Massing tanks is equivalent to swarm host play. tanks would spawn free units? No, but they don't drop 35-50 damage aoes either. Buffing the tank does have the risk of more passive play. No one wants swarm host part 2, now with AOE and scans.
This is exactly why optimal mech right now is passive play. Blizzard are gunshy about making the tank a fearsome unit, so the only current way to really play mech vs P is to sit and turtle because any "attack" you attempt is going to end up being horribly cost inefficient.
If tanks were actually strong enough to be used to leapfrog or perform attacks, we would see viable attacking mech and "slow pushes" like in brood war. The way it is right now though, if you try to "slow push" you just get 1A'd by immortals.
So i don't think buffing tanks has any risk of passive play. Mech right now already is 100% forced to passive play. If anything, buffing the tank vs Protoss will allow aggressive play.
Even if the Terran does play defensive mech, Protoss still has all of the tools to play late game and harrass vs that style of mech.
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While I even hate to say it Avilo is 100% correct. The only thing I hate about buffing tanks is it would be washing any bio play against mech almost completely.... lol
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Let's keep trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole, shall we? >_<
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Let's keep trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole, shall we? >_<
When you are the Terran player in the situation you are the square peg and SC2 is the round hole.......
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On December 04 2013 05:29 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:55 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 02:18 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On December 04 2013 02:14 TAMinator wrote:
nah, just make ghosts. This change will make the match up look very boring. Massing tanks is equivalent to swarm host play. tanks would spawn free units? No, but they don't drop 35-50 damage aoes either. Buffing the tank does have the risk of more passive play. No one wants swarm host part 2, now with AOE and scans. This is exactly why optimal mech right now is passive play. Blizzard are gunshy about making the tank a fearsome unit, so the only current way to really play mech vs P is to sit and turtle because any "attack" you attempt is going to end up being horribly cost inefficient. If tanks were actually strong enough to be used to leapfrog or perform attacks, we would see viable attacking mech and "slow pushes" like in brood war. The way it is right now though, if you try to "slow push" you just get 1A'd by immortals. So i don't think buffing tanks has any risk of passive play. Mech right now already is 100% forced to passive play. If anything, buffing the tank vs Protoss will allow aggressive play. Even if the Terran does play defensive mech, Protoss still has all of the tools to play late game and harrass vs that style of mech.
Avilo, just endorse my dark future of cliff jumping, fast transforming hellbats. Where is that test map? That is a buff even Protoss would endorse, with a "fuck, that shit is to awesome not to be in the game"
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EPT
