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On December 04 2013 01:17 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:13 -Celestial- wrote:On December 04 2013 01:12 DinosaurPoop wrote:
The technology isn't there yet.
Or better yet, replace the removed Siege Mode upgrade with this as an upgrade! Allow tanks to switch between single shot and double shot! Oooh...and give the single shot better AoE scaling! Now we're getting somewhere. Better AOE scaling could break TvT or TvZ (although personally I don't mind Terran being a mech only race, fuck bio), I'd happy to see that but I doubt Blizz would do it.
It'd make the tanks stronger but I don't think it'd have a gamebreaking effect. Not if applied carefully anyway. Might need tweaking.
Honestly I'm still convinced a big part of the problem for tanks isn't that they're particularly easy to counter but more that they don't do enough damage before dying. Even buffing them so they're not quite as weak against counters wouldn't be enough unless you make them so strong that counters just...don't anymore. Which is a bit silly.
To put it another way I'm more inclined to take the DOTA-like route of buffing its strengths rather than lessening weaknesses.
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i really like the OPs idea. is definitly worth a try. go blizzard!
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On December 04 2013 01:02 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 23:42 Big J wrote:GoOdy, you may want to add this to the OP: A modified Unit Tester is finished an published on EU and AMName: GoOdy's Tank Tester by Jay Changes: The Sieged Tank's damage has been changed to be applied twice. Damage changed to 18 (+7vs armored). Vehicle Upgrade changed to +2(+1vs armored) for the Sieged Tank + Show Spoiler +reasoning for those values is: 35+15 halved would be 17.5+12.5 - which is both clunky and may cause weird effects (e.g. with the insta-1health healing of zerg units) the damage amount is now 36+14 which is a supertiny buff (34+16 would be problematic since then the tank can't oneshot zerglings). doubling the attack (making the armor apply twice) is a supertiny nerf. In some cases (like when the zergling has a +1armor advantage) those balance out marvelously anyways  The upgrade changes are the standard ones in line with all other units. Leaving the Upgrades with +3(+2) would certainly be too strong, since they are applied twice. If someone tries it and finds a bug, please PM me! Edit: And as a little spoiler - even in this version immortals still counter tanks. So stop the panic and try it.  I would like to bump this because it seems everyone skips it.
this deserves a bump indeed. Works perfectly from what i've seen and these upgrade values are great. Huge buff against immortals but pretty much the same if EMP is applied first, small buff against archons/zealots and pretty much the same everywhere else. Immortals still do well agianst tanks but you can't just a-move into a tank line anymore.
Simple implementation, relatively elegant and fixes exactly a problem that exists while practically not mattering anywhere else. Only thing I don't really know if the splash really get's worse in battles where the first shot kills something and thus the second shot doesn't splash anymore or if the second shot still splashes, hard to tell quickly from testing just a few matchups.
Hopefully David kim picks up on this.
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nah, just make ghosts. This change will make the match up look very boring. Massing tanks is equivalent to swarm host play.
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On December 04 2013 02:14 TAMinator wrote:
nah, just make ghosts. This change will make the match up look very boring. Massing tanks is equivalent to swarm host play.
tanks would spawn free units?
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Ofc ghosts are good, but the problem is, that you dont have time to go for everything, you want a mech army, upgrades some expos and on top of that ghosts, then the toss player has to much time and can just go to air and it is really hard to play vs tempest/storm, so with this buff you could go for stronger midgame timings to force the toss player to delay air transitions, because now he has to worry about some good pushes.
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Guys watch avilo's stream before saying "make ghost it's ez". 10 immortals stilll steamroll 15 tanks no problem even after being EMP with ground avantage etc. + Ghost doesn't benefit of upgrade while playing mech so it's really a dead unit after launching EMP.
And why the protoss in this thread are so angry about this suggestion ? It's not like mech is viable currently and this change won't even be enough so don't be so self centered.
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On December 04 2013 02:18 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:14 TAMinator wrote:
nah, just make ghosts. This change will make the match up look very boring. Massing tanks is equivalent to swarm host play. tanks would spawn free units?
well swarm hosts make free units, but not free damage :p
that's like saying tanks have free damage because their ammunition rounds are free o.o
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I am in favor of this suggestion. Immortals should not hard counter mech (which is essentially tanks). They should be good vs, but really the hardened shield and their dps vs armored is insanely good and way more cost efficient vs tanks. Also we haven't even seen the potential of warp prism immortal play vs mech because protoss simply does not need to do stuff like that to beat a tank line. Just 1 a and make sure your units fire.
Making this change for tanks would make them almost 2x better vs immortals and would make immortals more of a soft counter that can be used as a tool instead of an end all. We would see more micro from protoss players as they attempt to utilize other units like the warp prism.
Tanks already suck vs ultras in seige mode so the 2x attack concept wouldn't really make them that much worse vs armored, even without the upgrade buff. Plus we might see more unseiged tank action in TvT with this change.
Just my 2 cents.
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On December 03 2013 21:55 shadymmj wrote:
A more elegant solution will be to make attacks that do under 30 damage be reduced to 10 damage against hardened shields, and those that do 31 and over be reduced to 20 damage. Just an alternative idea.
Go Go Ultralisks 
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Good discussion so far. I especially like the collection of naive posts about why mech is already good and the responses showing why they are wrong.
I don't really like pushing things in the direction of making tanks better against immortals. You don't want tanks to be able to do decently against immortals in a straight up fight even in a balanced situation, or else battles becoming uninteresting. Instead, I think a better direction to go is to give terrans more tools to either 1) deal with immortals, or 2) help the tanks shoot other units instead of immortals.
For 1), I have a few suggestions for what could be good changes.
--The first is changing the immortal so that more of its health is in shields compared to hp than currently (maybe a 4 to 1 ratio). This way, when the shields are stripped from an immortal it can no longer take much punishment, so landing 2 EMPs on an immortal effectively kills it.
-- The second is changing the ghost tech tree to make them more accessible to mech players: maybe make the ghost academy a 50/50 addon to the armory. This way, scv time and space are saved, as well as making the building cheaper.
-- The third is changing ghosts from slow, tanky units to fast, squishy units and lowering their cost to something like 50/100. Ghosts should be fragile and require protection, but should be given more tools to be slippery. I've never understood what blizzard was thinking with the sc2 ghost design.
For 2), I have one unorthodox and major suggestion. What about a mechanic that allows the player to dynamically tell their units what units should be prioritized in a battle? I don't know exactly how it would work, but for example you could select your units and view their unit type targeting priority list (say where the unit portraits currently are) and then drag and drop unit types within the list. I think this mechanic would add a lot of interesting gameplay across all races.
Also, I'll just throw out a few ideas relating to terran upgrade mechanics.
-- One of the big problems with terran has always been keeping up in upgrades. So I wonder whether adding a new type of command center upgrade, "research facility", that devotes all of its energy to boosting all current upgrade speeds by 10% (this number could be balanced) would add some interesting gameplay. Now when you make your third CC, there is an interesting choice to be made: you can use it for short term gain (drop mules, scan) or long term gain (speed up research).
-- Add a reactor core addon to armories and ebays that allow 2 upgrades to be researched at once
-- Add a 4th or even 5th upgrade tier to armories (perhaps for ground only). This would make mech a strong late game choice that terrans could transition to even in its current state, and would make terran scarier in late game situations (where they have always had problems against both races).
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On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts?
Except, immortals are not the counter to mech. They counter siege tanks (which in itself is uneeded-tpss has many toolks at their disposal to deal with mech besides this abomination of design).
Even after emp, they have a large enough health pool to soak and dish out damage. Ghosts are a very soft counter to a very hard "deterrent" counter
Tanks should actually receive an armored damage buff. They need to burst down immortals effectivly after the immortal's shields have been depleted. The same could be said of the thor-which suffers massivly from poor mobility and unit size.
This "solution" just jumps around the fact- and makes the attack not do so hot against high value, armored (native amor) units (interestingly- the thing tanks are supposed to be great at!)
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On December 04 2013 02:18 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:14 TAMinator wrote:
nah, just make ghosts. This change will make the match up look very boring. Massing tanks is equivalent to swarm host play. tanks would spawn free units?
No, but they don't drop 35-50 damage aoes either. Buffing the tank does have the risk of more passive play. No one wants swarm host part 2, now with AOE and scans.
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This is a really good suggestion actually, wow.
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For 2), I have one unorthodox and major suggestion. What about a mechanic that allows the player to dynamically tell their units what units should be prioritized in a battle? I don't know exactly how it would work, but for example you could select your units and view their unit type targeting priority list (say where the unit portraits currently are) and then drag and drop unit types within the list. I think this mechanic would add a lot of interesting gameplay across all races.
Yes, let's add another button to the command card called "Attack Move". You can quickly set the priority of what you're attacking by clicking on the unit itself! Focus firing is a thing of the past!...... oh wait.
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+ Show Spoiler +changing a units attack speed and damage to same dps makes a huge difference in almost all situations.
for lower damage units armor is a huge deal
for higher damage units kiting ability is a huge deal
tanks cant kite obviously but they are a huge damage burst unit and a change like this would change that dynamic of the tank.
example of damage burst; if you put out all damage in front every few seconds compared to smaller damage over time makes you destroy units of your opponent before they are able to fire.
there are many things like this just few examples of that you cant simply change a units fire rate and damage even if it has same dps because it changes so many things
im surprised by the amount of people who think this is a good idea or think that this wouldnt change situations outside immortal vs tank
even if this change would go through immortal shields would still be a hard counter to siege tanks and be terrible inefficient to fight immortals without emp. emp would still be the absolute best choice against immortal shields
edit: sorry i misunderstood the suggestion, i thought he wanted the tank to attack every 1.5 seconds with 50% damage and not fire twice every 3 seconds at the same time with 50% damage
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Great point @Goody. SC2 will be a better game if more diverse builds are available. The viability of mech against protoss and zerg will make the game better and more enjoyable to watch instead of just bio almost every game.
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EPT
