EPTSuggestion for a Mech tvp Buff - Page 4
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United States876 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:48 Paljas wrote: so, what happends if the terran actually doesnt unsieges all his tanks at one time (or builds a few vikings). like, just playing smart Wait for when the terran begins to relocate and pounce, kind of how toss beats mech already. | ||
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BanMeBro
Angola1 Post
On December 03 2013 21:21 GoOdy wrote: Suggestion for a Mech tvp Buff One of the biggest problems with mech in tvp is the immortal, because he really destroys every mech unit and at the same time he just wont die to tanks, right now u need 10 tank shots to get rid of the shields and then 4 more for the 200 hitpoints: 14 attacks in total Now you can't just nerf the immortal, because he has to be strong in pvp, pvz and u can't just buff the tanks or it might change tvt and tvz to much. So my idea is to double the shots per attack: At the moment its 1 shot per attack with 50 dmg, but if u would change that to 2 shots per attack with 25 dmg is would be almost the same in every situation and every fight, but it would kill off 20 shields and not only 10. So then u would need 5 attacks (10 shots) to get rid of the shields and then 4 more for the 200 hitpoints: 9 attacks in total. ››› You save 5 attacks! The only difference overall would be, that with 2 shots the armor will count double, so it could be good to change the 25 to 26 dmg to compensate for that. So what do you think? And maybe somebody who knows how to use the editor could try that out to see how big that change would be. Since when was the immortal a "he"? How do we know its gender? Scarlett has shown us that even ultralisks are female. I disapprove of this gender bias. User was banned for this post. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:53 avilo wrote: But I honestly do not think it will help much vs immortals because i've seen and played games where the Protoss has had mass immortals vs tank based armies...and every single immortal was EMP'd (meaning they had no shields) and the immortals still steam rolled everything with mass chargelot/archon because Protoss was 2/0/2 or 3/0/3 while mech player was 1/0 or 2/0. Bullsh*t replay lol That must've been on sh*tty terran lol | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:53 Big J wrote: Did you really just tell a professional gamer, who is known for playing Mech nearly exclusively, to try and figure his playstyle out a little more because someone on the ladder has beaten you with it?  It boggles the mind... Some people are talking as if giving advise to a bronze player. Explore more, make Ghosts, mech is strong i use it/ get beaten by it, it's like 2010 all over again. I get that we all want to believe that our own play has some sort of significance on balance/ pro play, but this is getting ridiculous lol | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On December 04 2013 00:02 Sapphire.lux wrote: It boggles the mind... Some people are talking as if giving advise to a bronze player. Explore more, make Ghosts, mech is strong i use it/ get beaten by it, it's like 2010 all over again. I get that we all want to believe that our own play has some sort of significance on balance/ pro play, but this is getting ridiculous lol You don't need to have pro player skill to give intelligent suggestions/opinions on the game. As with regular sports, people who watch passionately and pay attention to the game can often have very intelligent and meaningful discussions about high level play regardless of their actual ability. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 04 2013 00:02 Sapphire.lux wrote: It boggles the mind... Some people are talking as if giving advise to a bronze player. Explore more, make Ghosts, mech is strong i use it/ get beaten by it, it's like 2010 all over again. I get that we all want to believe that our own play has some sort of significance on balance/ pro play, but this is getting ridiculous lol Yeah, although I don't think that buffing tanks is the way to make mech viable, I don't tell players to " try ghosts". I think a ghost buff might help mech or some hellbat love. Tank just a little ore time to do their dark business to be super viable. | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:57 -Celestial- wrote: Welcome to the wonderful world of "powerful but positionally vulnerable" compositions. Similar to that of virtually every Protoss composition since the release of WoL. Something crucial slightly out of position? Boom, there it goes. Mech is a fundamentally defensive composition given its slow speed and the nature of siege tanks. If the enemy manages to get units into your defensive position then: 1. You screwed up somewhere and 2. Its going to hurt Same reason Medivac drops in your base are really effective if you don't have something already in place to deal with it (as any race, incidentally). Edit: That being said I think avilo's got a good point with respect to the armoury. Perhaps a cost reduction and even a build time buff would help there? I've actually felt for a while the tank needs a buff. But I'm not sure that going after special cases like "two shots to kill immortals better" or "anti-shield shells" is the way to go. I think a flat increase in damage across the board would help. Or perhaps a boost in splash damage within the radius? Yeah, because just like Protoss, my mech army can wander around the map and if something goes wrong I just recall to the nearest command center....oh wait! Also this "powerful but positionally vulnerable" is not as powerful as it's vulnerable, as it stands, it either needs to be more powerful or less vulnerable, being "strong" only if you are behind a wall of Barracks, PFs, sensor towers and a multi-layer turret ring is not very good design, don't you agree? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 04 2013 00:07 Plansix wrote: Yeah, although I don't think that buffing tanks is the way to make mech viable, I don't tell players to " try ghosts". I think a ghost buff might help mech or some hellbat love. Tank just a little ore time to do their dark business to be super viable. Well, I actually think the problem is the tank. Per design of the Mech units, the tank is the number 1 antiground weapon of Mech play. But it is not reasonable to mass tanks against ground for the most part. Because of stuff like Immortals and Archons being so efficient against them. I guess you can work your way around them for some time, have strong hellbats, have strong Thors, have Ghosts and widow mines deal with shields. But at the end of the day, if all of those workarounds haven't done it, I guess it is really the Tankrelations that have to change. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The immortal shield is just a bit of a silly thing. It is only very relevant against tanks and to a slightly lesser extent ultralisks which it both counters too hard I think. In case of ultralisks it's not so bad anymore now because they have received enough buffs but for tanks it's still a bit silly. It's unlikely the immortal will see any big changes though, it's just too much of hassle to do. A simple fix would be that hardened shield reduced attacks over 10 by 20 max but it's just as unelegant basically. Would be a tiny buff to ultralisks and a huge buff to tanks. I do have to say this would be the best simple fix to the tanks without messing with the immortal. Dealing damage in two parts has disadvantages because armor affects it twice but this is somewhat nicely counterbalanced by the fact attack upgrades get a little better. For example against a unit with 3 armor you would do 44 instead of 47 now, not a big deal. But if you get +3 attack with each attack upgrade giving +3 damage you would deal 62 damage compared to 62 damage now. So it would even out against most stuff, be a little buff if you have more attack upgrades than they have armor and be a little nerf if they have more armor than you have attack (which will only happen against ultralisks basically which is pretty irrelevant). One little problem though with this solution, the normal attack of the tank is 35 damage and you have to somehow divide this by two and how you do is crucial. 17 per attack thus 34 total would be a huge nerf against lings so 18 per attack is the solution. This makes it 1 kill lings except when they have 1 armor which is like it is now and if you get +1 attack upgrade you will still oneshot them unless they have +3 armor (while before you would always oneshot them with +1 attack). This is probably a moot point so it would work. Attack upgrades get slightly better (+4 per attack) but armor upgrades get slightly better against tanks too(-2 per armor upgrade) so this actually evens out and all in all it's a slight buff to the tank against unarmored units for mech, as tanks usually have more attack upgrades than the units they attack have armor (since armor tends to suck against mech a bit). For example tanks with +1 attack would 4-shot zealots (40 on first shot, then 3*38) while now they 5-shot zealots (38 on first shot, 37 on other 4). Noticeable buff but fine I think. All in all I must say I like this change the most from all i've seen for the tank to fix it. It's a huge buff against immortals, it's a sizeable buff against archons and zealots and it's tiny buff against most other stuff. It is a very tiny nerf against ultralisks. In other words it buffs the tank rightly so in TvP and keeps it pretty much the same in other matchups plus it makes armor upgrades a bit more important against mech. Overall all good changes I'd say. Especially because I find it even more important that when mech finally does get 'fixed' it is a proper fun mech at least with tanks and hopefully a lot of harass. Not some sort of airmech thor/banshee combination. In that vein I think this change (or something with similar effect) to the tank would be great plus a change to thor making it better against air but worse against ground. That should solve the problems of mech mostly, ie that they are too weak against air (muta's, vipers, voids, carriers, tempests) especially now the widow mine is nerfed plus that some ground combinations just trump them (immortals and swarm hosts specifically). By just a little changes to thor and tank I think this can be solved while enforcing the idea that you need tanks vs ground and thors vs air. I just hope David Kim uses this 'in between seasons' time to dare another big patch. Perhaps overbuffing mech a little bit and consequently buffing some tools that are good against mech but are almost never seen now (carriers, overlord drop and nydus worms for example). These simple changes can make it possible to make mech viable in both TvZ and TvP making those matches highly entertaining while still keeping the nice balance between mech and biotank there is now in TvT. Additionally overbuffing mech and then buffing tools against it like the carrier and overlord drop would create highly active play plus we might actually see those cool options being used in other ways (the occasional carriers and overlord drop In PvZ, PvP and ZvZ!). | ||
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effecto
France142 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On December 04 2013 00:08 fried_rice wrote: Yeah, because just like Protoss, my mech army can wander around the map and if something goes wrong I just recall to the nearest command center....oh wait! Also this "powerful but positionally vulnerable" is not as powerful as it's vulnerable, as it stands, it either needs to be more powerful or less vulnerable, being "strong" only if you are behind a wall of Barracks, PFs, sensor towers and a multi-layer turret ring is not very good design, don't you agree? Highly amusing comment. You're comparing apples to oranges. A mech army doesn't NEED to "wander around the map". Hell, Terran as a race doesn't need to "wander around the map" with the whole army. Small Terran forces tend to comfortably outmatch any similarly sized small force from either Zerg or Protoss, which makes them very cost effective. On the other hand pretty much the only way to move around the map as Protoss is with your entire army or, as you put it, "wander around the map". Alternatively you could peel parts off your Protoss army to send them out and lose them in grossly cost-ineffective engagements that they have little to no chance to run away from (no medivacs, remember?). More to the point and I know I'm repeating myself here, mech is a defensive composition. A Protoss army is slow but fundamentally offensive in nature. So you're comparing two completely different things. Hell you can expand those principles to the races as a whole and even how they win games. And your last part is entirely subjective and down to whether you think particular units are stronger or weaker than they need to be. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 04 2013 00:06 ffadicted wrote: You don't need to have pro player skill to give intelligent suggestions/opinions on the game. As with regular sports, people who watch passionately and pay attention to the game can often have very intelligent and meaningful discussions about high level play regardless of their actual ability. I'm not saying we can't have an opinion, but telling a pro player "just build Ghosts" or "mech is strong i get beaten by it" is so stupid it's insulting and probably a big reason pro players don't like posting much. In "real"sports you can scream all you want that David Moyes has chosen the wrong team for a game or has used the wrong tactics, but not only will your opinion be worthless, it wount even be read by anyone even remotely connected to the club. Comparing the 2 doesn't really work TBF On December 04 2013 00:07 Plansix wrote: Yeah, although I don't think that buffing tanks is the way to make mech viable, I don't tell players to " try ghosts". I think a ghost buff might help mech or some hellbat love. Tank just a little ore time to do their dark business to be super viable. Maybe so, although i tend to think the Tank is the problem because it is supposed to be the main "anti ground" unit. Most units in a mech composition seem to do their job OK: Hellbats with light units, Vikings with air, mines with a bit of defence; it's the Tank that get's walked over by big ground units, creating an imbalance  IMO. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On December 04 2013 00:32 Sapphire.lux wrote: I'm not saying we can't have an opinion, but telling a pro player "just build Ghosts" or "mech is strong i get beaten by it" is so stupid it's insulting and probably a big reason pro players don't like posting much. In "real"sports you can scream all you want that David Moyes has chosen the wrong team for a game or has used the wrong tactics, but not only will your opinion be worthless, it wount even be read by anyone even remotely connected to the club. Comparing the 2 doesn't really work TBF Wouldn't be surprised if David Moyes DOES read up for ideas online. I mean he clearly doesn't know what he's doing. (Liverpool fan.  )Maybe so, although i tend to think the Tank is the problem because it is supposed to be the main "anti ground" unit. Most units in a mech composition seem to do their job OK: Hellbats with light units, Vikings with air, mines with a bit of defence; it's the Tank that get's walked over by big ground units, creating an imbalance IMO.The more I'm thinking about it the more I'm wondering if its a splash issue. The falloff in splash damage within the radius is pretty harsh. Improve that, maybe a slight damage buff, maybe even AoE increase. Then good to go? | ||
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drkcid
Spain196 Posts
Seems legit. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3327 Posts
being "strong" only if you are behind a wall of Barracks, PFs, sensor towers and a multi-layer turret ring is not very good design, don't you agree? That's my favourite thing about Terran. That whereever the army goes, buildings follow. Turrets, Bunkers, Planetaries, Sensor Tower, Depots, Barracks, Auto Turret/PDD. To a lesser extend Widow Mines. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
What is a good counter to tanks other than immortals? Chargelots. Blink stalkers. MSC recall for the mobility. Phoenixes. VRs. Tempests. Carriers. These units tend to suck against Bio, and I have no comment about Bio's balance, but make no mistake, Toss is not short on options, especially against mech. | ||
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cloneThorN
Denmark302 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:36 fried_rice wrote: Yeah, except SHs have like over 20 range if locusts are on creep and they don't need any support, whereas tanks by themselves are pretty shit (they are bad even with proper support TBH) and P and Z (and bio T as well) have PLENTY of tools to abuse/slow down a meching Terran, it's just happens that everybody is bad at using them because they never have to. So, so many things wrong with this statement. Lemme shed some insight as a master Z swarmhost player. 1. Swarmhost NEED support. Without support, they are even worse than unsupported and unsieged tanks, as any tyype of fast moving unit(marine, marauder, hellion, stalker, chargelot, ling, roach) will just kite or ignore the locus and kill off the swartmhost. Also, hellions(not hellbats!) hardcounters swarmhost as hard as immortals hardcounter siegetanks. 2. Whats the point in slowing down a mech terran? Mech in TvZ is all about reaching a high raven/viking count, as trading with that as zerg, is neigh impossible(if you try to use infestors, the terran can just drop 20 auto turrets, and if corruptors come too close, they get seeker missiled while taking dmg from auto turret and getting their attacks negated by pedition turret). And before you say viper hydra roach, i will remind you, that vipers are super squeeshy, and can be killed off by either ghost, viking, raven or thors. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On December 04 2013 00:51 shadymmj wrote: I hope all the tosses in this thread realise that you AREN'T supposed to beat sieged tanks straight up. If so then that would be utterly pointless. Why would you make a unit that has terrible mobility and can be crushed by a far more mobile army? Give me a good reason why. What is a good counter to tanks other than immortals? Chargelots. Blink stalkers. MSC recall for the mobility. Phoenixes. VRs. Tempests. Carriers. These units tend to suck against Bio, and I have no comment about Bio's balance, but make no mistake, Toss is not short on options, especially against mech. You make a comment about how you're "supposed" to lose to siege tanks...then name four air units which are "supposed" to be a direct counter to the power of something like mech? Honestly this thread is devolving into a farce... | ||
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manniefresh
United States74 Posts
manniefresh United States. September 04 2013 04:23. Posts 18 PM Profile Quote Edit # On September 04 2013 03:18 manniefresh wrote: Tanks need a buff! My suggested tank buff is called "Double Shot", researched from armory, it would be an upgrade: It would allow tanks two shots from siege mode for half damage this would: 1) make tanks viable in tvp vs immortals 2) not really change/make them worse in tvz cause they wouldn't 1 shot banes or lings 3) hopefully not change tvt your thoughts?? | ||
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