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On December 03 2013 23:42 Big J wrote:GoOdy, you may want to add this to the OP: A modified Unit Tester is finished an published on EU and AMName: GoOdy's Tank Tester by Jay Changes: The Sieged Tank's damage has been changed to be applied twice. Damage changed to 18 (+7vs armored). Vehicle Upgrade changed to +2(+1vs armored) for the Sieged Tank + Show Spoiler +reasoning for those values is: 35+15 halved would be 17.5+12.5 - which is both clunky and may cause weird effects (e.g. with the insta-1health healing of zerg units) the damage amount is now 36+14 which is a supertiny buff (34+16 would be problematic since then the tank can't oneshot zerglings). doubling the attack (making the armor apply twice) is a supertiny nerf. In some cases (like when the zergling has a +1armor advantage) those balance out marvelously anyways  The upgrade changes are the standard ones in line with all other units. Leaving the Upgrades with +3(+2) would certainly be too strong, since they are applied twice. If someone tries it and finds a bug, please PM me! Edit: And as a little spoiler - even in this version immortals still counter tanks. So stop the panic and try it. 
I would like to bump this because it seems everyone skips it.
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Also Time Warp should affect both teams.
that is all.
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On December 04 2013 00:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:06 ffadicted wrote:On December 04 2013 00:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 03 2013 23:53 Big J wrote:On December 03 2013 23:51 sc2pal wrote:
Mech is pretty strong, I've played myself vs some people who use thors hellbats and ghosts in addition to tanks and its very hard to beat it so I would say you should explore it more before you go into altering balance Did you really just tell a professional gamer, who is known for playing Mech nearly exclusively, to try and figure his playstyle out a little more because someone on the ladder has beaten you with it? It boggles the mind... Some people are talking as if giving advise to a bronze player. Explore more, make Ghosts, mech is strong i use it/ get beaten by it, it's like 2010 all over again. I get that we all want to believe that our own play has some sort of significance on balance/ pro play, but this is getting ridiculous lol You don't need to have pro player skill to give intelligent suggestions/opinions on the game. As with regular sports, people who watch passionately and pay attention to the game can often have very intelligent and meaningful discussions about high level play regardless of their actual ability. I'm not saying we can't have an opinion, but telling a pro player "just build Ghosts" or "mech is strong i get beaten by it" is so stupid it's insulting and probably a big reason pro players don't like posting much. In "real"sports you can scream all you want that David Moyes has chosen the wrong team for a game or has used the wrong tactics, but not only will your opinion be worthless, it wount even be read by anyone even remotely connected to the club. Comparing the 2 doesn't really work TBF Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:07 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 00:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 03 2013 23:53 Big J wrote:On December 03 2013 23:51 sc2pal wrote:
Mech is pretty strong, I've played myself vs some people who use thors hellbats and ghosts in addition to tanks and its very hard to beat it so I would say you should explore it more before you go into altering balance Did you really just tell a professional gamer, who is known for playing Mech nearly exclusively, to try and figure his playstyle out a little more because someone on the ladder has beaten you with it? It boggles the mind... Some people are talking as if giving advise to a bronze player. Explore more, make Ghosts, mech is strong i use it/ get beaten by it, it's like 2010 all over again. I get that we all want to believe that our own play has some sort of significance on balance/ pro play, but this is getting ridiculous lol Yeah, although I don't think that buffing tanks is the way to make mech viable, I don't tell players to " try ghosts". I think a ghost buff might help mech or some hellbat love. Tank just a little ore time to do their dark business to be super viable. Maybe so, although i tend to think the Tank is the problem because it is supposed to be the main "anti ground" unit. Most units in a mech composition seem to do their job OK: Hellbats with light units, Vikings with air, mines with a bit of defence; it's the Tank that get's walked over by big ground units, creating an imbalance IMO.
1. If the main problem with your army, is that protoss have a single unit with special shield, and you have the option to make a unit that REMOVES said shield, and you STILL don't build it, then you can not be taken seriously by any standard pro or not.
2. So your idea of a proper tank, is one that WILL kill all types ground units if high enough number? That sure seems balanced, wonder why blizz havn't done it yet...
3. Mvp always used ghost with his mech builds in TvP.
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The technology isn't there yet.
Or better yet, replace the removed Siege Mode upgrade with this as an upgrade! Allow tanks to switch between single shot and double shot!
edit: ninja'd with the idea 
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On December 04 2013 01:12 DinosaurPoop wrote:
The technology isn't there yet.
Or better yet, replace the removed Siege Mode upgrade with this as an upgrade! Allow tanks to switch between single shot and double shot!
Oooh...and give the single shot better AoE scaling!
Now we're getting somewhere.
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On December 04 2013 00:31 -Celestial- wrote:
Highly amusing comment. You're comparing apples to oranges. A mech army doesn't NEED to "wander around the map".
Fair enough, I enjoy defensive play since brood war.
On December 04 2013 00:31 -Celestial- wrote:
Hell, Terran as a race doesn't need to "wander around the map" with the whole army. Small Terran forces tend to comfortably outmatch any similarly sized small force from either Zerg or Protoss, which makes them very cost effective.
This only applies to bio and to very niche situations as mech, in TvP, small mech forces can be dealt with (most of the time) by the mineral only-warpin anywhere-chargelots.
On December 04 2013 00:31 -Celestial- wrote:
On the other hand pretty much the only way to move around the map as Protoss is with your entire army or, as you put it, "wander around the map". Alternatively you could peel parts off your Protoss army to send them out and lose them in grossly cost-ineffective engagements that they have little to no chance to run away from (no medivacs, remember?).
Wrong, Zealot warpins are insanely powerful vs mech (hell, even against bio they are very good), they require no micro or baby sitting (warpin/rally), it's VERY easy to lose the game because a single warp prism found a hole in your defenses (which is supposed to be your strong point) and 4 high hp zealots are ruining your supply depots, armories and reactors. Tanks won't do shit in that situation, Hellions are too slow to go from your choke to your main, hellions can beat zealots but they need to be microed and they are too slow at killing them, I won't even mention Thors.
They don't even need to get away because losing 400~600 minerals is OK because you'll be ahead in economy anyway and more often than not your Zealots will more than pay forthemselves in this kind of harass, which again, is very easy to pull off.
On December 04 2013 00:31 -Celestial- wrote:
More to the point and I know I'm repeating myself here, mech is a defensive composition. A Protoss army is slow but fundamentally offensive in nature. So you're comparing two completely different things. Hell you can expand those principles to the races as a whole and even how they win games.
Ok, I don't mind playing 40+ minute matches every time, but a lot of people find that "boring/dull" or whatever, so for the sake of viewership it would be cool for mech to have better agressive options (I said BETTER, I'm not saying these options don't exist). A lot of my games I'll pretty much know I have it won from the 20minute mark but I can't actually close the deal until I'm 200/200 with 3-3 and 15ravens. This is also especially true for TvZ, which is the matchup that generates the most rage for me, because Zergs will be forced into 1hour games but they actually have no chance of winning since mid-game due to bad compositions/engagements/etc but I can't actually punish them for that until I have an ultimate army and 4/5 bases.
On December 04 2013 00:31 -Celestial- wrote:
And your last part is entirely subjective and down to whether you think particular units are stronger or weaker than they need to be.
I guess it's subjective, and so is the opinion of Goody or any other progamer or community figure, it just happens that everyone who wants mech to be viable agrees with this last point I made.
I'm a Masters league mech player, if my opinion is not good enough for you than watch some mech streamers, or hell, even ask any of the semi/pro level mechers what they of this post and I'm pretty sure they'll agree with me.
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On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts?
The idea that you need ghost to play mech TvP is exactly why Mech TvP doesn't work.
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On December 04 2013 01:13 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:12 DinosaurPoop wrote:
The technology isn't there yet.
Or better yet, replace the removed Siege Mode upgrade with this as an upgrade! Allow tanks to switch between single shot and double shot! Oooh...and give the single shot better AoE scaling! Now we're getting somewhere.
Better AOE scaling could break TvT or TvZ (although personally I don't mind Terran being a mech only race, fuck bio), I'd happy to see that but I doubt Blizz would do it.
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On December 04 2013 01:17 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts? The idea that you need ghost to play mech TvP is exactly why Mech TvP doesn't work.
How is that a reasonable statement? Why is it unfair mech would need to EMP
Edit: I mean this late game
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On December 04 2013 01:18 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:17 Noocta wrote:On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts? The idea that you need ghost to play mech TvP is exactly why Mech TvP doesn't work. How is that a reasonable statement? Why is it unfair mech would need to EMP
Because if it were fair, you would see the strategy in use.
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On December 04 2013 01:18 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:17 Noocta wrote:On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts? The idea that you need ghost to play mech TvP is exactly why Mech TvP doesn't work. How is that a reasonable statement? Why is it unfair mech would need to EMP
Because they are not part of the mech-tech tree, and unlike the other 2 races, the Terran tech tree and production is not flexible. Barracks and Ghosts are a big investment (you need the structure AND the upgrades), and then you are left with a unit that's expensive, squishy, with no weapon or armor upgrades in which the only purpose is to...remove shields, something which just the force protoss to move away to quickly regenerate.
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On December 04 2013 01:18 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:17 Noocta wrote:On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts? The idea that you need ghost to play mech TvP is exactly why Mech TvP doesn't work. How is that a reasonable statement? Why is it unfair mech would need to EMP
When did he say its "unfair"? I think he wants to say: the ghost is no mech unit. But if I want to win i am forced to do bio units nonetheless.
Or: I need to play 1h games.
I have to agree to an earlier post: U can't play mech offensively at all. Changing that would be healthy for the game imo.
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On December 04 2013 01:27 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:18 ffadicted wrote:On December 04 2013 01:17 Noocta wrote:On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts? The idea that you need ghost to play mech TvP is exactly why Mech TvP doesn't work. How is that a reasonable statement? Why is it unfair mech would need to EMP When did he say its "unfair"? I think he wants to say: the ghosts is no mech unit. But if I want to win i am forced to do bio units nonetheless. Or: I need to play 1h games.
I have to agree to an earlier post: U can't play mech offensively at all. Changing that would be healty for the game imo.
I believe avilo would have a few words to say about that
Anyways, as a random zerg I approve of this idea.
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I prefer having the immortal only do weaker damage to Terran mechanical units. Maybe half damage or 2/3rds of the original damage value. This will fix it quick, because Terran mech won't die too quick, Zerg and Protoss armored units still get hit with bonus damage, and the Immortal itself will still be alright due to its hardened shields and decent HP.
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On December 03 2013 23:35 TrumpetWilli wrote:
1. Remove Thor energy (and alongside the Strike Cannon ability, it's never used anyways)
2. Make Hellbats mech only and not bio-mech. It just makes no sense that they are Bio, Hellions aren't Bio so why should Hellbats be. This ways they would no longer get completely shredded by Archons.
3. Nerf Ravens! Mass Ravens is just ridiculous, against Protoss as well as against Zerg.
4. Use Ghosts and Immortal shields are no longer a problem.
5. Hooray!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these would be little changes, creating great effect.
There are many other things wrong in this game but this does not belong here.
You are wrong. Thors don't have energy bars in HoTS and the rest of your suggestions are off-topic, unhelpful and ridiculous all at once.
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On December 04 2013 01:24 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:18 ffadicted wrote:On December 04 2013 01:17 Noocta wrote:On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts? The idea that you need ghost to play mech TvP is exactly why Mech TvP doesn't work. How is that a reasonable statement? Why is it unfair mech would need to EMP Because they are not part of the mech-tech tree, and unlike the other 2 races, the Terran tech tree and production is not flexible. Barracks and Ghosts are a big investment (you need the structure AND the upgrades), and then you are left with a unit that's expensive, squishy, with no weapon or armor upgrades in which the only purpose is to...remove shields, something which just the force protoss to move away to quickly regenerate.
And...? lol
I'm confused as to why this is a huge deal. When the game goes on long enough, it's stupid to not invest in something as useful as the Ghost imo
They shouldn't be NEEDED as your mech army is building, but they should be in the late game
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immortal is not a problem
i dont agree I'm playing in gml eu and i don't have any probs with them
ye they are raping you if you don't have proper army composition but its ok
problem is: storm+air (carriers+/tempests) vs mass vikings/ghosts (because you really can't dodge from _all_ storms)
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On December 04 2013 01:44 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:24 fried_rice wrote:On December 04 2013 01:18 ffadicted wrote:On December 04 2013 01:17 Noocta wrote:On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts? The idea that you need ghost to play mech TvP is exactly why Mech TvP doesn't work. How is that a reasonable statement? Why is it unfair mech would need to EMP Because they are not part of the mech-tech tree, and unlike the other 2 races, the Terran tech tree and production is not flexible. Barracks and Ghosts are a big investment (you need the structure AND the upgrades), and then you are left with a unit that's expensive, squishy, with no weapon or armor upgrades in which the only purpose is to...remove shields, something which just the force protoss to move away to quickly regenerate. And...? lol I'm confused as to why this is a huge deal. When the game goes on long enough, it's stupid to not invest in something as useful as the Ghost imo They shouldn't be NEEDED as your mech army is building, but they should be in the late game
In the late late game Ravens are better, they can actually kill stuff with Seeker, can help you vs Tempest/VR/Carrier (all of which Ghosts are useless against), they provide detection, auto turrets can be used to harass bases or create on-the-go chokepoints for your armies...and list goes on. Wasting resources and, more importantly, supply, on ghosts might is not as good as you make it out to be.
Anyway, I commend goody on creating this thread, awesome initiative, I'm done posting here.
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On December 04 2013 01:04 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 04 2013 00:06 ffadicted wrote:On December 04 2013 00:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 03 2013 23:53 Big J wrote:On December 03 2013 23:51 sc2pal wrote:
Mech is pretty strong, I've played myself vs some people who use thors hellbats and ghosts in addition to tanks and its very hard to beat it so I would say you should explore it more before you go into altering balance Did you really just tell a professional gamer, who is known for playing Mech nearly exclusively, to try and figure his playstyle out a little more because someone on the ladder has beaten you with it? It boggles the mind... Some people are talking as if giving advise to a bronze player. Explore more, make Ghosts, mech is strong i use it/ get beaten by it, it's like 2010 all over again. I get that we all want to believe that our own play has some sort of significance on balance/ pro play, but this is getting ridiculous lol You don't need to have pro player skill to give intelligent suggestions/opinions on the game. As with regular sports, people who watch passionately and pay attention to the game can often have very intelligent and meaningful discussions about high level play regardless of their actual ability. I'm not saying we can't have an opinion, but telling a pro player "just build Ghosts" or "mech is strong i get beaten by it" is so stupid it's insulting and probably a big reason pro players don't like posting much. In "real"sports you can scream all you want that David Moyes has chosen the wrong team for a game or has used the wrong tactics, but not only will your opinion be worthless, it wount even be read by anyone even remotely connected to the club. Comparing the 2 doesn't really work TBF On December 04 2013 00:07 Plansix wrote:On December 04 2013 00:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 03 2013 23:53 Big J wrote:On December 03 2013 23:51 sc2pal wrote:
Mech is pretty strong, I've played myself vs some people who use thors hellbats and ghosts in addition to tanks and its very hard to beat it so I would say you should explore it more before you go into altering balance Did you really just tell a professional gamer, who is known for playing Mech nearly exclusively, to try and figure his playstyle out a little more because someone on the ladder has beaten you with it? It boggles the mind... Some people are talking as if giving advise to a bronze player. Explore more, make Ghosts, mech is strong i use it/ get beaten by it, it's like 2010 all over again. I get that we all want to believe that our own play has some sort of significance on balance/ pro play, but this is getting ridiculous lol Yeah, although I don't think that buffing tanks is the way to make mech viable, I don't tell players to " try ghosts". I think a ghost buff might help mech or some hellbat love. Tank just a little ore time to do their dark business to be super viable. Maybe so, although i tend to think the Tank is the problem because it is supposed to be the main "anti ground" unit. Most units in a mech composition seem to do their job OK: Hellbats with light units, Vikings with air, mines with a bit of defence; it's the Tank that get's walked over by big ground units, creating an imbalance IMO. 1. If the main problem with your army, is that protoss have a single unit with special shield, and you have the option to make a unit that REMOVES said shield, and you STILL don't build it, then you can not be taken seriously by any standard pro or not. 2. So your idea of a proper tank, is one that WILL kill all types ground units if high enough number? That sure seems balanced, wonder why blizz havn't done it yet... 3. Mvp always used ghost with his mech builds in TvP.
1. ghosts are of course a good addition to TvP mech but they don't solve the immortal problem. Just like with HT it's too hard to always emp everything. Besides tank range outranges emp so the shields will typicall still absorb a few shots before the emp lands. Pro korean play has shown plenty of times mech just doesn't work well enough even if you use ghosts. Sure it may win occasionally but it's just not as good.
2. There shouldn't be too much of a problem with mech dominating all ground armies if in high enough numbers. The downsides are low mobility, having to siege up, air and very slow buildtime. That provides the fun play from BW where the mech player has the stronger straight up army but the other player tries to win on economy, with harass, good surprise manouvers or air switches.
3. Of course ghosts are mandatory for mech later on that shouldn't change. Buffing the ghost would be an option too, before that would offset bio tvp but now it's probably fine to do so. Still I prefer a tank buff like mentioned here as it will make fights resolve less around just emp, the spell is already so important in TvP.
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On December 04 2013 01:44 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:24 fried_rice wrote:On December 04 2013 01:18 ffadicted wrote:On December 04 2013 01:17 Noocta wrote:On December 03 2013 22:15 ChadMann wrote:
idk.. I think Immortals are supposed to kill mech..... Maybe you should just make ghosts? The idea that you need ghost to play mech TvP is exactly why Mech TvP doesn't work. How is that a reasonable statement? Why is it unfair mech would need to EMP Because they are not part of the mech-tech tree, and unlike the other 2 races, the Terran tech tree and production is not flexible. Barracks and Ghosts are a big investment (you need the structure AND the upgrades), and then you are left with a unit that's expensive, squishy, with no weapon or armor upgrades in which the only purpose is to...remove shields, something which just the force protoss to move away to quickly regenerate. And...? lol I'm confused as to why this is a huge deal. When the game goes on long enough, it's stupid to not invest in something as useful as the Ghost imo
that's true, but ghosts are one of the most expensive units in the game and you need multiple of them to reasonably allow Mech to break even with Immortal/Archon based armies. Thing being, that said Mech army also has to be built and it just does not work out that you have such an army when you need it.
Yeah, after 20mins I think Ghost/Mech is quite OK in groundwars vs Protoss. Just that Protoss dominates the game before that on the ground. And guess how long an average SC2 game is? 11-15mins. And even if it isn't over by that (e.g. because you play a stubborn turtle style), it is often decided during that periode of time. Which more often than not is bad for the guy with the weaker and more immobile army at that point in time.
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EPT
