EPTSuggestion for a Mech tvp Buff - Page 3
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wishr
Russian Federation262 Posts
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:08 VieuxSinge wrote: Tank-based mech is supposed to *not* die in a frontal assault. Right now protoss can still go air to counter mech, but ground works as well, even when siege tanks are sieged (thanks to immortals) so why bother? Yeah terran bio can also a move over protoss army if protoss is much behind. If you somehow win fight agaisnt sieged mech army, terran player has been behind for long time. Meaning he had much smaller army. But in reality, ravens hard counter tempest and going void is extremely hard. You dont have any upgrates for them. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:25 Squat wrote: Huh? Chargelots demolish tanks if controlled properly, colossus with lance can kite them easily. Void rays take them out in seconds. Tanks are very shaky against protoss overall. how does one kite tanks? | ||
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EpicDemente
Chile202 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
By attacking, making them siege, falling back out of range, waiting for them to unsiege, rinse and repeat. I've seen it done a few times, it looks pretty funny. Colossus with lance has enough range to safely attack anything in the mechball and move out of range before tanks are sieged. | ||
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IcED Bk
Canada245 Posts
Also its called ghosts ;P | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:19 pmp10 wrote: I think suggestions of this type have been thrown at Blizzard for years. It's just not happening. 10% tank buff is about as much as they are willing to consider. I think they are worried about making swarm hosts part 2 with tanks and creating more "passive gameplay". I think tanks could use some love, but I can see why blizzard is slow to buff them. | ||
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watchlulu
Germany475 Posts
2. Make Hellbats mech only and not bio-mech. It just makes no sense that they are Bio, Hellions aren't Bio so why should Hellbats be. This ways they would no longer get completely shredded by Archons. 3. Nerf Ravens! Mass Ravens is just ridiculous, against Protoss as well as against Zerg. 4. Use Ghosts and Immortal shields are no longer a problem. 5. Hooray! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these would be little changes, creating great effect. There are many other things wrong in this game but this does not belong here. | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:33 Plansix wrote: I think they are worried about making swarm hosts part 2 with tanks and creating more "passive gameplay". I think tanks could use some love, but I can see why blizzard is slow to buff them. Yeah, except SHs have like over 20 range if locusts are on creep and they don't need any support, whereas tanks by themselves are pretty shit (they are bad even with proper support TBH) and P and Z (and bio T as well) have PLENTY of tools to abuse/slow down a meching Terran, it's just happens that everybody is bad at using them because they never have to. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:25 Squat wrote: Huh? Chargelots demolish tanks if controlled properly, colossus with lance can kite them easily. Void rays take them out in seconds. Tanks are very shaky against protoss overall. I thought the point of this idea was on using tanks in an army composition, not just mass tank. There's this unit which you might consider getting as part of a mech composition called a Hellbat and its pretty good against Zealots. Sieged Tanks are range 13 whilst Colossi are range 9 with thermal lance. Not sure where the whole "kite them easily" is coming from; hell even unsieged they're range 7, which outranges non-thermal lance colossi (6 range). On December 03 2013 23:35 TrumpetWilli wrote: 1. Remove Thor energy (and alongside the Strike Cannon ability, it's never used anyways) You're about a year out of date with your information here... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
A modified Unit Tester is finished an published on EU and AM Name: GoOdy's Tank Tester by Jay Changes: The Sieged Tank's damage has been changed to be applied twice. Damage changed to 18 (+7vs armored). Vehicle Upgrade changed to +2(+1vs armored) for the Sieged Tank + Show Spoiler + reasoning for those values is: 35+15 halved would be 17.5+12.5 - which is both clunky and may cause weird effects (e.g. with the insta-1health healing of zerg units) the damage amount is now 36+14 which is a supertiny buff (34+16 would be problematic since then the tank can't oneshot zerglings). doubling the attack (making the armor apply twice) is a supertiny nerf. In some cases (like when the zergling has a +1armor advantage) those balance out marvelously anyways  The upgrade changes are the standard ones in line with all other units. Leaving the Upgrades with +3(+2) would certainly be too strong, since they are applied twice. If someone tries it and finds a bug, please PM me! Edit: And as a little spoiler - even in this version immortals still counter tanks. So stop the panic and try it.  | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:39 -Celestial- wrote: I thought the point of this idea was on using tanks in an army composition, not just mass tank. There's this unit which you might consider getting as part of a mech composition called a Hellbat and its pretty good against Zealots. Sieged Tanks are range 13 whilst Colossi are range 9 with thermal lance. Not sure where the whole "kite them easily" is coming from; hell even unsieged they're range 7, which outranges non-thermal lance colossi (6 range). Hellbats can't cover every angle, only a couple of Zealots getting into melee-range of the tanks can completely change the outcome of an engagement to the protoss side, all it takes is a bit of flanking, and this is why you have to posture yourself defensively at all times as a meching player if you want an even/favourable engagement. Check out's MVP's mech game on WW vs Hero, all it took was a few zealots coming from the side to completely negate hellbats. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:31 Squat wrote: By attacking, making them siege, falling back out of range, waiting for them to unsiege, rinse and repeat. I've seen it done a few times, it looks pretty funny. Colossus with lance has enough range to safely attack anything in the mechball and move out of range before tanks are sieged. so, what happends if the terran actually doesnt unsieges all his tanks at one time (or builds a few vikings). like, just playing smart | ||
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sc2pal
Poland624 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
But I honestly do not think it will help much vs immortals because i've seen and played games where the Protoss has had mass immortals vs tank based armies...and every single immortal was EMP'd (meaning they had no shields) and the immortals still steam rolled everything with mass chargelot/archon because Protoss was 2/0/2 or 3/0/3 while mech player was 1/0 or 2/0. Upgrades are still an issue for mech vs P, anyone that opts to play mech vs Protoss right now, including myself, realize that we will be playing the entire game upgrade handicapped because it's not viable to get double armory + 5 factories + starport + raven + siege tanks + blueflame/hellion transform. Cutting gas cost off the armory and putting it to 100/50 like in brood war would help. Obviously double attacking tank shots...it would be better than nothing and would help, but it's more the immortal being too extremely efficient against mech and needs to be toned down for mech to see the light of day. Tanks need to be strong vs Protoss, not weak like they currently are. Giving tanks straight up more damage like they did to widow mines +shield damage might make tanks a fearsome unit that can hold positions and Protoss has to think twice before 1A'ing mindlessly into tank lines. Just an fyi for everyone here, back when tanks did 50 flat damage mech was incredibly viable against Protoss, and if Protoss 1A'd into you...units melted. The damage nerf and changing zealot armor to light was the nail in the coffin at that point. Hellbat being bio vs archon certainly doesn't help either...but I doubt that will not be changed. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:51 sc2pal wrote: Mech is pretty strong, I've played myself vs some people who use thors hellbats and ghosts in addition to tanks and its very hard to beat it so I would say you should explore it more before you go into altering balance Did you really just tell a professional gamer, who is known for playing Mech nearly exclusively, to try and figure his playstyle out a little more because someone on the ladder has beaten you with it? | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:51 sc2pal wrote: Mech is pretty strong, I've played myself vs some people who use thors hellbats and ghosts in addition to tanks and its very hard to beat it so I would say you should explore it more before you go into altering balance Yeah, because Goody, the mech progamer, hasn't experimented with mech much... More likely it's you that hasn't experimented a lot on how to fight mech and you are actually bad at fighting it. | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:35 TrumpetWilli wrote: 1. Remove Thor energy (and alongside the Strike Cannon ability, it's never used anyways) 2. Make Hellbats mech only and not bio-mech. It just makes no sense that they are Bio, Hellions aren't Bio so why should Hellbats be. This ways they would no longer get completely shredded by Archons. 3. Nerf Ravens! Mass Ravens is just ridiculous, against Protoss as well as against Zerg. 4. Use Ghosts and Immortal shields are no longer a problem. 5. Hooray! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these would be little changes, creating great effect. There are many other things wrong in this game but this does not belong here. Again player that have never played hots. Thor's have never had energy bars in HoTS or strike cannons... Most funny thing was when month ago terran player said same. And he also said that he only mechs in TvP...liar :D | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On December 03 2013 22:42 ffadicted wrote: Make ghosts tbh, this is a silly change imo Also I thought balance suggestion threads had no place in TL, shouldn't this be posted in Bnet forums? To my knowledge, TL allows balance posts by notable people in the community. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:45 fried_rice wrote: Hellbats can't cover every angle, only a couple of Zealots getting into melee-range of the tanks can completely change the outcome of an engagement to the protoss side, all it takes is a bit of flanking, and this is why you have to posture yourself defensively at all times as a meching player if you want an even/favourable engagement. Check out's MVP's mech game on WW vs Hero, all it took was a few zealots coming from the side to completely negate hellbats. Welcome to the wonderful world of "powerful but positionally vulnerable" compositions. Similar to that of virtually every Protoss composition since the release of WoL. Something crucial slightly out of position? Boom, there it goes. Mech is a fundamentally defensive composition given its slow speed and the nature of siege tanks. If the enemy manages to get units into your defensive position then: 1. You screwed up somewhere and 2. Its going to hurt Same reason Medivac drops in your base are really effective if you don't have something already in place to deal with it (as any race, incidentally). Edit: That being said I think avilo's got a good point with respect to the armoury. Perhaps a cost reduction and even a build time buff would help there? I've actually felt for a while the tank needs a buff. But I'm not sure that going after special cases like "two shots to kill immortals better" or "anti-shield shells" is the way to go. I think a flat increase in damage across the board would help. Or perhaps a boost in splash damage within the radius? | ||
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