EPTtldr: keep the koreans around, we need a final boss to test our skill so we know that who ever wins wcs am is actually good.
Koreans Are Here to Stay - WCS America 2014 - Page 3
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Metalcore1993
New Zealand92 Posts
tldr: keep the koreans around, we need a final boss to test our skill so we know that who ever wins wcs am is actually good. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On November 21 2013 19:51 mikkmagro wrote: They're still in WCS; MacSed will play WCS AM Premier, whilst Jim will be playing Challenger, together with Top, another Chinese player. Another three Chinese will qualify to AM Challenger through the regional cups. but what happens if they (not likely) get knocked out? it's a little disheartening. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3711 Posts
Either way blizzard is addressing the issue I would have just reset premier and challenger league like this year. | ||
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hellokittySC2
United States395 Posts
On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote: So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. for once i actually agree with something avilo (aka someone i dislike very much) has said. with all the support/disagreements to WCS and region lock, the way blizzard has done things is really disheartening for NA pro gamers like me to be motivated to practice hard since i'm probably just going to get knocked out by some koreans in challenger league or first/second round of premier league without ever being able to dream of even placing any higher. Even though i am on an European team, you don't see me traveling to Europe to compete in WCS EU right? I'd feel very un-welcomed and un-easy to play there compare to my now-so-called-home, AMERICA. I guess my point is that the moves blizzard is making is hurting the scene and (i am calling Kim and the rest of her crew out) it's due to incompetent people who are not familiar with e-Sports and its community in general. TLDR: If this continues there will be more foreign pros on NA who will walk deeper into despair and eventually leave this terrible system and go into league/dota2 | ||
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
On November 21 2013 17:07 avilo wrote: So you're saying the Chinese soccer team should be replaced by Brazilians? Because Brazil is known for having the best soccer players in the world... "Because we only want to see the best soccer players, we should let them play in China!" (you can replace the countries here with whatever country). Or how about the NBA in the USA goes around to another country and replaces all of that country's competitors... That's why something needed to change...and it seems not much did sadly. If you want to foster regional competition you sort of need people from that region...or country, or what not. Yes I am saying all that really and I have no clue why it's hard to understand. This is not the olympics where people represent their country, people are representing themselves. Are you saying in European Champions League football we should ban Brazilians from playing for Barcelona or Real Madrid? Arsenal is made up of almost entirely non British people. | ||
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AWalker9
United Kingdom7229 Posts
On November 21 2013 16:30 bourne117 wrote: Exactly. People act like its code S level players coming to WCS AM and EU. Taeja was the ONLY player who gave up code S to come over. Hero was the ONLY player to give up Code A. Everyone else wasn't even in code A when WCS was announced. JD now is probably a code S level player. Polt is also but had already left because of school. So we have 4 clear Code S/B players. Most of the rest are not at this level. If the american scene can't produce players capable of beating Korea's scraps they don't deserve the premier league tournament slots. Actually it wasn't just HerO who gave up his Code A seed, Ryung, Center, Nestea, aLive did as well. While MC was knocked out in WCS S1 RO32 and forfeited Code A to go to Europe with Hyun as well as Teaja dropping out in RO16 of WCS S1 and leaving to go to AM. It shows here http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_1_Korea_GSL/Challenger | ||
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Elitios
France164 Posts
For those who want no koreans on WCS America, you are dead wrong, Koreans mean competition. The fact that 12 Koreans are the guardians of the gate to glory in premier looks like it will not only be great storylines, but also a huge incentive for players to practice their ass off, since they are now just a single bo5 away from becoming regional heroes... | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On November 21 2013 20:28 hellokittySC2 wrote: for once i actually agree with something avilo (aka someone i dislike very much) has said. with all the support/disagreements to WCS and region lock, the way blizzard has done things is really disheartening for NA pro gamers like me to be motivated to practice hard since i'm probably just going to get knocked out by some koreans in challenger league or first/second round of premier league without ever being able to dream of even placing any higher. Even though i am on an European team, you don't see me traveling to Europe to compete in WCS EU right? I'd feel very un-welcomed and un-easy to play there compare to my now-so-called-home, AMERICA. I guess my point is that the moves blizzard is making is hurting the scene and (i am calling Kim and the rest of her crew out) it's due to incompetent people who are not familiar with e-Sports and its community in general. TLDR: If this continues there will be more foreign pros on NA who will walk deeper into despair and eventually leave this terrible system and go into league/dota2 If you 'ban' the Koreans the competition is worse and natural human behaviour is being lazy. If you can win prize money by beating other players from your region which you obivously already can (and most of the US players can) , most of them won't practice hard to begin with, because its not needed to place highly. Also it completely makes the Blizzcon finals what Blizzard doesn't want it to be. Just another tournament. It should be the best of the best and the WCS system in 2014 won't provide that. Also to your note that you could compete in Europe, you are very welcome here. Happy will be your present. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On November 21 2013 20:58 b0rt_ wrote: Yes I am saying all that really and I have no clue why it's hard to understand. This is not the olympics where people represent their country, people are representing themselves. Are you saying in European Champions League football we should ban Brazilians from playing for Barcelona or Real Madrid? Arsenal is made up of almost entirely non British people. What you are saying entirely too extreme and does not correlate completely with other sports. While it is entirely understandable to want to see the best players in the world compete, I know for one that I do, and I tend to watch more high end tournaments. However there should still be local only tournaments for the region to develop its own talent. While there are tons of foreigners on local teams all around the world, there are still lots and lots of teams that have mostly local talent, and if they work hard enough they can get enough recognition to play on the bigger teams. There is one big reason why you want to also have local talent grow and compete. It attracts local viewers, which, like it or not represent a good market to tap into, it allows money to flow in and helps everybody and then it gives a sense of legitimacy to the rest of the competition. In the long run if one nation/region dominates too much then the rest of the scene also suffers because, while the domination nation/region is really happy, the rest of the world will not be. Like yes, Asian soccer might be far, far behind of EU or South America, but that isn't a reason to allow EU and Brazilian players to flood their region and steal all the spots. You could be sure that if that happened then the interest in it would plummet completely. Yes there are players moving into other regions, but they are mostly in the minority, the majority is still locals. Another good example is in Skiing. Norway used to dominate, they realized it would be a problem so they cooperated with the tournaments to added restrictions along the lines of only a certain number of representatives per nation + 1 more slot for the reigning champion nation. They also tried to help the local scenes by sending coaches around the world to help the other nations. So, we aren't saying we want fully region locked competition, nor are we saying we want full free for all, what we do want is equality between the two. Have some local tournaments and partial region lock to help and sustain the local scene, have huge big open tournaments where the best of the best can clash and produce great games. We need both and at the moment we only had just one. Your view of wanting to see only the best of the best at the detriment of everything else is just plain wrong. | ||
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On November 21 2013 21:55 Destructicon wrote: Another good example is in Skiing. Norway used to dominate, they realized it would be a problem so they cooperated with the tournaments to added restrictions along the lines of only a certain number of representatives per nation + 1 more slot for the reigning champion nation. They also tried to help the local scenes by sending coaches around the world to help the other nations. So, we aren't saying we want fully region locked competition, nor are we saying we want full free for all, what we do want is equality between the two. Have some local tournaments and partial region lock to help and sustain the local scene, have huge big open tournaments where the best of the best can clash and produce great games. We need both and at the moment we only had just one. Your view of wanting to see only the best of the best at the detriment of everything else is just plain wrong. I agree, but WCS is not the tournament to have those locks to be honest. Its the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES. If you want local tournaments, have local tournaments and that would be completely fine. SHOUTCRAFT etc pp. Have 'smaller' tournaments that feed the scene, but locking the tournaments with several tens of thousands of dollars? Nah, that hurts the scene even though the AM players don't like it. | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
On November 21 2013 20:28 hellokittySC2 wrote: for once i actually agree with something avilo (aka someone i dislike very much) has said. with all the support/disagreements to WCS and region lock, the way blizzard has done things is really disheartening for NA pro gamers like me to be motivated to practice hard since i'm probably just going to get knocked out by some koreans in challenger league or first/second round of premier league without ever being able to dream of even placing any higher. Even though i am on an European team, you don't see me traveling to Europe to compete in WCS EU right? I'd feel very un-welcomed and un-easy to play there compare to my now-so-called-home, AMERICA. I guess my point is that the moves blizzard is making is hurting the scene and (i am calling Kim and the rest of her crew out) it's due to incompetent people who are not familiar with e-Sports and its community in general. TLDR: If this continues there will be more foreign pros on NA who will walk deeper into despair and eventually leave this terrible system and go into league/dota2 Starcraft 2 has always been an open international competition with the exception of proleague. Foreigners have not only been welcome, but for a long time received special treatment by Gom offering seeds and a training house (however humble). Blizzard accomodated local players by reserving seeds to foreigners where they can show, whether they´re good enough to compete with the big boys for the big money. Now people have to step up their game, instead of complaining about "auto-losses" against Koreans. | ||
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ninjamyst
United States1903 Posts
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
On November 21 2013 21:55 Destructicon wrote: Your view of wanting to see only the best of the best at the detriment of everything else is just plain wrong. The result of changes mean we have fewer legitimate top players and more players 'given a chance aww'. Also what if one of the foreigners takes a win at the world finals? then speculation about 'win by region lock' might come up  I don't know, this is all bad bad in my book and I'm surprised Blizzard went this route. | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On November 21 2013 21:57 NarutO wrote: I agree, but WCS is not the tournament to have those locks to be honest. Its the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES. If you want local tournaments, have local tournaments and that would be completely fine. SHOUTCRAFT etc pp. Have 'smaller' tournaments that feed the scene, but locking the tournaments with several tens of thousands of dollars? Nah, that hurts the scene even though the AM players don't like it. You raise an interesting point, but I'm kind of torn regarding what you said. On the one hand DH, MLGs and former NASL, IPL all had a strong international component and a lot of times the Koreans ended up in the money. WCS was kind of the local tournament that helped the local scenes, which, I must admit is a bit ironic. Yeah it is really weird for the WCS to be more regional/local, but atm it feels kind of necessary. Another problem is, as TotalBiscuit mentioned, ladder still is the NR1 source of practice for honing and developing mechanics, team houses seem to be more for perfecting strategies. There really aren't any tournaments that reward laddering or that encourage Koreans to ladder on EU/NA ladders to raise the local level. I believe you also need that ladder practice against the Koreans otherwise, yes you might practice as hard as possible and qualify for a WCS but once you run into Koreans they could still be a level above and still crush you despite your best efforts. So, I really agree with a lot of what you say, but the situation right now seems really iffy. A good thing the new WCS system will do is, hopefully encourage more Koreans to play on the local ladders and that will, hopefully help the local scenes. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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Garnet
Vietnam9055 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 21 2013 16:30 bourne117 wrote: Exactly. People act like its code S level players coming to WCS AM and EU. Taeja was the ONLY player who gave up code S to come over. Hero was the ONLY player to give up Code A. Everyone else wasn't even in code A when WCS was announced. JD now is probably a code S level player. Polt is also but had already left because of school. So we have 4 clear Code S/B players. Most of the rest are not at this level. If the american scene can't produce players capable of beating Korea's scraps they don't deserve the premier league tournament slots. Sadly, the American scene has never proven itself capable of consistently dealing with non-Code S Koreans. One only needs to look at the history of Korean pickups by smaller American teams to see that. | ||
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DavoS
United States4605 Posts
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LockeTazeline
2390 Posts
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