EPTHotS Balance Update - November 11 - Page 7
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Here are my opinions: Oracle: I believe this just makes build order wins/proxy stargate freewins way more prevalent. Does not promote anything other than slot machine gameplay that already exists too much in TvP first. Armory Change: Addresses absolutely none of the issues that plague mech viability. The armory change is really just a viking buff in lategame situations where it almost does not make a difference because at that point the main counters to clumped vikings, psi storm and fungal growth, ignore upgrades. Mech right now has issues in general because tanks are not strong for their cost, armories are too expensive and compete with building production (factories). A better armory change would have been to reduce the price to 100/50 (once again liek in brood war, but blizzard is afraid to do this because it's "like brood war"), because then a meching Terran can get upgrades + production at the same time, just like every other race currently can with evo chambers, forges, ebays. While it's better than nothing...having played with the armory change, i see virtually no difference. PDD/seeker/fungal/storm ignore upgrades, and those are the things that occur most often in lategame. Siege tank change Blizzard are too timid to ever do anything to make the tank not suck in low numbers. They even went back on their own word and instead of 2.7 speed, they further went gunshy and put the attack speed at 2.8. This change virtually shows no difference in-game and does not justify nerfing the widow mine. Widow mine Nerf This nerf would be fine...IF blizzard ever actually decently buffed the siege tank. They currently are too afraid to make the tank a fiercesome unit in the game. I pretty much expect every Terran player is massively pissed off that the widow mine was nerfed with no decent compensation to the siege tank. Widow mines were already being phased out of play against Zergs that learned to deal with it, and i see mass mutalisk presenting a huge problem now in the match-up. Ironically though, this nerf doesn't really affect mech so much because mines always have sucked with mech and were better with bio. I know that seems very backwards, but that is just how the game plays due to swarmhosts triggering mines and mines taking up supply. Roach burrow speed buff Arbitrary change to appease Zerg players (@_@). Sure why not lol. Conclusions: I forsee more proxy oracles/guessing games in TvP early game with even less risk to Protosses. I don't see mech becoming any more viable after the armory change because the problem is not combining upgrades, the problem is upgrades come into the game so late right now because of armory price conflicting with a meching Terran building infrastructure (starports/factories). This is the real issue of mech VS p/z. If you as a Terran want to play mech, you will be playing 100% of your games vs P/Z with an upgrade handicap because if you want to live the first 15 minutes you cannot go double armory + 3-5 factories/1 starport. I personally think the widow mine nerf is also a knee jerk change to previous balance outcry, and Zergs already had "figured out" bio mine in the last month. Overall, besides just predicting what will come of the balance changes, i think everyone posting here on TL will agree that blizzard's reaction to Lalush's research...is disappointing | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:42 wUndertUnge wrote: So I just watched a guy go bio-mine vs. muta ling bling on Idra's stream. I don't understand. That composition is dead. You need tanks. Blizzard was trying to make that composition far less mobile and to have people build some tanks. tanks don't shoot up. No way you deal with mass muta while going marine/tank | ||
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r691175002
249 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:39 Plansix wrote: Why would they lie now? What possible reason could that have that isn't some tin foil hat wearing nonsense? Just look at how close every single matchup is to 50% and its clear as day the numbers are bullshit. They even use the incredibly vague "Top 1000" games instead of providing any indication of where the numbers are from. Look at SC2 winrates from periods where the game was considered relatively balanced and you will see most matchups in the 2-4% difference range, not 0% across the board. Plus if you look at the most recent WCS season finals, and global finals, the numbers are not even close to 50. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:42 sAsImre wrote: the real question is: why would they break a core unit of a match up ? Because it made the game stale and was overshadowing other aoe units? So they buffed one and toned down the other. It's not really rocket science to see what they are thinking. Just go and try the new tank, the guys on Meta(pro terrains included) said it was stronk. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8726 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:37 Qikz wrote: I don't see how it's unreasonable to believe that's the case. Terrans getting destroyed left and right = not winning Blizzcon or WCS Korea this time around... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series Look highest level tournament stats and think again. Or go play LoL. Either way, SC2 wins. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:44 Plansix wrote: Because it made the game stale and was overshadowing other aoe units? So they buffed one and toned down the other. It's not really rocket science to see what they are thinking. Just go and try the new tank, the guys on Meta(pro terrains included) said it was stronk. it won't do shit against 30+ mutas. tanks are already strong but they allow the Z to set back because you cannot be as aggressive and they don't deal really well with regenerating muta. The mu wasn't getting staled either, zergs were just beginning to figure out how to play lategame vs 4M.... | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:45 wUndertUnge wrote: Also, it's funny to see people complaining about how non-legit mines are vs. mutas. Let's just recall that magical moment during WCS Season 3 finals and WCS Blizzcon when Terran players remembered that they had the capability to make Thors. Ooooooooh, another unit link me a vod where a non meching T kills more than 2mutas with a thor. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
Only after I get all my ladder wins in! :D :D :D | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:46 sAsImre wrote: it won't do shit against 30+ mutas. tanks are already strong but they allow the Z to set back because you cannot be as aggressive and they don't deal really well with regenerating muta. The mu wasn't getting staled either, zergs were just beginning to figure out how to play lategame vs 4M.... Build thors, I hear some guys did it in a big tournament this weekend and they were great. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:47 sAsImre wrote: link me a vod where a non meching T kills more than 2mutas with a thor. I'm sorry. Were you asking for proof? Why would we ask for proof, evidence, and reason in our rational, sane community. Kidding  I will look! I will! | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:48 Plansix wrote: Build thors, I hear some guys did it in a big tournament this weekend and they were great. They don't kill mutas. They scared them, then 20s later the 500dmg you did is gone because muta regenerated. They're a really great complement to 4m because they allow you to protect both your mines and medivac when you push. And if you're making tons of thors + tanks, hint you're meching and you'll meet vipers. Tho mech could be viable in TvZ with a more mech friendly map pool, it's fucking boring both to watch and play once you know how it works >;< | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:45 wUndertUnge wrote: Also, it's funny to see people complaining about how non-legit mines are vs. mutas. Let's just recall that magical moment during WCS Season 3 finals and WCS Blizzcon when Terran players remembered that they had the capability to make Thors. Ooooooooh, another unit Yes because a very slow unit which is countered by a simple micro trick is the counter to fast muta harass. Even if the muta player forgets to magic box, he takes the shot and flies away to regen. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:51 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Yes because a very slow unit which is countered by a simple micro trick is the counter to fast muta harass. Even if the muta player forgets to magic box, he takes the shot and flies away to regen. Thor + mines? | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 09:51 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Yes because a very slow unit which is countered by a simple micro trick is the counter to fast muta harass. Even if the muta player forgets to magic box, he takes the shot and flies away to regen. thorship are really good with the boost now so the speed isn't that much of a problem. And you should never lose it if you've the micro to do it. Regen on the other hand... | ||
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
On November 12 2013 08:35 Pontius Pirate wrote: Did anyone actually watch any pro players on the balance test map? The 2.7 tank attack speed was huge. It's not a 10% boost in power, it's a significant chance to deal at least one additional shot per engagement. Oftentimes that only equals 1 or 2 shots, meaning that an additional shot is 50% or 33% more power than before. Roaches absolutely fold to small groups of siege tanks now, at least when there is buffer between them. I like you. You win what I've read so far. Numbers and pro test play is far greater than (>) dipshits just yelling about balance like they are a gift of knowledge to blizzard. Blizzard might not make the best decisions, I play toss and think oracle is silly upgrade, but this stuff shouldn't be game ending or anything. Personally I think mmm soft countering everything is more annoying across the board of match ups, but that's just my opinion from watching all race streams. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On November 12 2013 08:49 Eatme wrote: I'm ok with all buffs but the oracle. They are already really annoying earlygame, especially in teamgames. EDIT: I think they should have buffed the Thor too. Dunno exactly how, but terran needs buffs and I have not seen that many thors lately. What kind of buff would the Thor be helped most by, without unbalancing it? More health? More damage? Faster movement? The ability to be mass-produced by SCVs as if they were buildings like they could in the SC2 alpha? I'm all for keeping the Thor in the game in LotV, but mech really needs a more nimble deterrent to Mutas, and it needs to be a deterrent that is stuck on the ground, unlike Vikings. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
so sad community so sad ... | ||
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