On November 12 2013 17:06 Snugles wrote: Is this me or does this entire patch feel horribly underwhelming. They have waited for a while for a major game changing patch (and the game needs it) and THIS is it? Maybe I've just been spoilt by 6.79 in dota but I would like to see Blizzard do things a bit more riskily and quickly.
Spot on. Except the Oracle buff, which seems to risk the ire of the whole community.
On November 12 2013 17:11 iznobest wrote: Getting cheesed by protoss about 90% of the games in master's, while their macro play abilities have never been stronger. As a non-korean its already very difficult to take little damage from oracle, and this will make it virtually impossible to even survive at all.
The WM nerf and the useless tank upgrade (doesnt help at all vs viper) will make terrans want to cheese zergs, or throw 2 base allins. There will be hardly any way to stop mass 2/2 lingbling mass muta play without WM; maybe if youre a top korean and have insane splits.
The biggest problem for me is these tank buffs+armory buffs will make mech insanely strong in TVT, with an absurd transition for them into BC's which will be unstoppable for bio players like me.
I actually don't see anything good at all in this patch, sad
Awesome username, loved that cartoon!
On the patch, I'd like to echo the dismay of many other posters. The mini-tournament didn't demonstrate any real advantage to the tanks, Strelok was losing his game against Ret, but Ret for some reason forgot to get upgrades, mass-expand or to transition to lategame while sitting on 10k, 5k. Then he just lost against a few BC and vikings, while (sic!) unsieged tanks killed all of his bases.
The second game he lost to BFH, if I recall correctly.
It doesn't take Ghanburidamus to see that terran will go into a slump (they were in a slight slump already, with the highest level being dominated by Protoss and Zerg in the last few months - a problem exacerbated in online qualifiers with less preparation time). The only good thing is that there's an off-season to practice new builds... The negative part is that it's going to be months before Blizz gets tournament results to determine whether they have broken terran or not.
Overall, I think the patch is going in the right direction, though (except for the oracle patch - proxy oracles are common and come way too early - it's not harass, it's more like a chance to auto-win, without there being a way to punish that opening).
On November 12 2013 16:12 DarkLordOlli wrote: The oracle "buff" is actually a nerf to protoss because when you fly that thing to your opponent's base now and look away to macro, it'll already be there and die to marines
That's right up there with idra saying infestor move speed buff is actually a nerf, cause they'll walk in front of the army.
On November 12 2013 16:37 TheOne26 wrote: why is everyone surprised by this, i thought it was well known that david kim hates terran ever since the retarded ghost snipe nerf. its just sad that with every patch they have been reducing terran options whilst increasing protoss/zerg options in terms of viable units and strats.
there are what now, 2 maybe 3 top terrans that can compete with the best of the other races? what a joke lmao. i can't imagine how many championships flash should've won by now if he had played toss at the start of hots like he wanted, but he had faith that blizz would fix terran first like they had promised at the end of wol....nope.
you know, im still bitter about that ghost nerf. totally uncalled for in its current form.
I'm pretty sure it happened because of this battle:
It's kind of disgusting how many brood lords got destroyed but it was a pretty bad attack attacking with 20 broodlords into vikings/PF/ghosts with low support units on a terran favored map
It should have been because of july vs mvp on metalopolis in that gsl semi final. That was fucking disgusting.
On November 12 2013 16:12 DarkLordOlli wrote: The oracle "buff" is actually a nerf to protoss because when you fly that thing to your opponent's base now and look away to macro, it'll already be there and die to marines
That's right up there with idra saying infestor move speed buff is actually a nerf, cause they'll walk in front of the army.
the other way round. he said the movespeed nerf was actually a buff.
Lol the biased terrans claiming terran is somehow in a slump despite 8 of the top 16 in WCS rankings being terran.
And pretending that a slight nerf to widow mines (that only affects TvZ), a slight buff to the speed of oracles, an insignificant buff to burrowed roaches (because roaches are good against terran, right?) will somehow 'break' terran or put them in a 'bigger slump'.
I bet half you terrans are the kind that get outplayed all game and stay in the game making widow mines just hoping for that 'lucky shot'. Lol.
Personally I agree that the oracle should be more useful throughout the game but I'd rather see something like an upgrade that allows it to shut down static defense for a high amount of energy. That way you could do it but you'd only have a little energy left to kill workers. Not to mention that you need a large energy bank first. Lategame oracle usage is purely for revelation in combination with tempests, otherwise it's just not worth the investment because static defense will be in place anyway and that shuts down oracles easily.
Midgame oracles only exist if you have them left after opening with them and you only use it for revelation and scouting. The only different use for oracles is in PvP where you see people for example using them as detection against DTs or in combination with gateway all ins because they target down immortals really quickly.
Can't believe they went through with the Oracle change haha. Looking forward to not being able to kill the Oracles in TvP! I've always been thinking why don't they go proxy Oracle every game PvT, now they will! (Or don't even need to Proxy really..)
Siege tank is now only buffed to 2.8 from 3.0 instead of 2.7? What an insignificant change, the buff probably was already enough to make any real change.
On November 12 2013 17:43 contv wrote: Lol the biased terrans claiming terran is somehow in a slump despite 8 of the top 16 in WCS rankings being terran.
And pretending that a slight nerf to widow mines (that only affects TvZ), a slight buff to the speed of oracles, an insignificant buff to burrowed roaches (because roaches are good against terran, right?) will somehow 'break' terran or put them in a 'bigger slump'.
I bet half you terrans are the kind that get outplayed all game and stay in the game making widow mines just hoping for that 'lucky shot'. Lol.
as a QQ-ing terran myself i can answer you this:
Terran is doing fine in the pro-scene, there are plenty of top korean terrans that are doing well
The problem is for people like me, stuck in master league. Terrans are WAY WAY WAY underrepresented in GM and Master league. The problem for terran isnt found in the pro-scene but just below that. Playing terran in this meta-game is insanely difficult, dispite what people think about this skill-less GG widow mine
As much as I would like to see the return of Marine/Tank in TvZ, muta regeneration and Vipers just kill it. Not only can Mutalisks now almost freely pick off Tanks since they'll just regenerate any damage they take from the Marines, but if you do somehow make it past the mid-game, Vipers ruin everything. Both Abduct and Blinding Cloud completely shuts down Tank play. Without Tanks, Marines die horribly to Banelings unless you have god-like splits. Other compositions may or may not work but with Marines being the only force that Mutalisks have to respect, I fear other compositions would just die to the Mutalisks. Thors are too slow and bulky and can be magic boxed.
Mech vs Protoss is still mostly dead because of the ease with which Protoss can switch between units that require a completely different mech composition to deal with it. Archons, Immortals, Chargelots, Void Rays and Tempests all work amazingly against a Mech composition that isn't specifically tuned to dealing with it. You got Hellbats and Tanks to deal with Chargelot/Immortal? Void Rays or Archons say hello. You added a lot of Vikings to deal with Void Rays or Tempests? You get stomped on the ground. The upgrades being combined and the 'tank buff' resolve very little to none of this. Mech is too rigid and inflexible against a smart Protoss who can just switch back and forth against what you have.
since i have begun to dislike bioplay anyways, i think i will try to combine mech and air units in every matchup, losing with battlecruisers is winning.
On November 12 2013 17:43 contv wrote: Lol the biased terrans claiming terran is somehow in a slump despite 8 of the top 16 in WCS rankings being terran.
And pretending that a slight nerf to widow mines (that only affects TvZ), a slight buff to the speed of oracles, an insignificant buff to burrowed roaches (because roaches are good against terran, right?) will somehow 'break' terran or put them in a 'bigger slump'.
I bet half you terrans are the kind that get outplayed all game and stay in the game making widow mines just hoping for that 'lucky shot'. Lol.
First, I think you should learn how to politely argue on TL.
But, substantially, you misunderstand the word "broken". Terran can be "broken" because it's too bad or too good (and this is the case independently for bio, mech and skymech) and it can also be broken because the MU is terrible to spectate (TvP is in a pretty bad state in terms of how every T seems to do the same thing with tiny tactical adjustments, SH-based ZvP is probably easiest to relate to in these terms). I said that these the significant changes (WM and upgrades) might break terran in any of those ways, but we will not know until months from now as there's a tournament hiatus.
Wow I really can't understand how they still are willing to give Protoss stupid and completely unnecessary unit buffs... Tank buff is going in the right direction, but why did they even reduce the fire rate? Not that it was that big of a difference with 2.7 ...
Burrow change is fine with me, Combined mech upgrades were too strong during beta, but let's see how that will turn out.
Overall I get they want to give Protoss something to deviate from their usual tech path, but the oracle is definitely the wrong unit to to mess with since it's so prevalent during he early stages of the game already and thus will promote mainly one-base play.
Overall I'm really unimpressed by Blizzard's decisions again, what the fuck...
On November 12 2013 17:43 contv wrote: Lol the biased terrans claiming terran is somehow in a slump despite 8 of the top 16 in WCS rankings being terran.
And pretending that a slight nerf to widow mines (that only affects TvZ), a slight buff to the speed of oracles, an insignificant buff to burrowed roaches (because roaches are good against terran, right?) will somehow 'break' terran or put them in a 'bigger slump'.
I bet half you terrans are the kind that get outplayed all game and stay in the game making widow mines just hoping for that 'lucky shot'. Lol.
As a midmasters zerg/low masters terran on korean ladder (YEAH THAT MEANS SHIT ALL), the balance of difficulty during engagements and the rest of the game went from being pretty similar on both sides (at least imo) to drastically more difficult for terran.
The widow mine nerf is far more drastic then you think, and referencing wcs rankings from before the nerfs is silly. Pre hellbat nerf into bio mine was fucking stupid, to the point where life (going into a slump) lost to sjow. The game has changed since then, and to pretend otherwise is silly.
there have been patches before where everyone was bitchin' yet it turned out okay. for a change, let's look at the possible poitive outcomes: - maybe the ZvT composition will be more diversified with some tanks sprinkled in - hopefully we will start to see BC's in the matchup, if so we're half way there only the carrier remains to be fixed - the roach speed buff is pretty big and might help zerg to transition out of the middle game roachfest and itt will definitely help with end game shenanigans
i would like to see some structural design changes too, but the time for that is the next expansion
I feel like this is the kind of patch that happens when you cant decide if you want to balance the game for the pros or vereyone else. WMs are already amazingly well delt with by the top Zergs ( there are game-ending hits now and thrn but the same applies to banelings) while on diamond, maybe master (just saying on diamond because thats where i am), you can basicly win the game if you bait the enemy into a 10 WM field.. same goes for oracle, the tip-top pros can keep their oracle alive and do huge damage, but the lower players often have such a bad reaction time that the movement speed wont matter - the oracle is dead when they look at it again Dunno, i feel as if this patch is kind of "meh" siege tank buff is nice and dend and all, but since 2 vipers counter all your tanks, attackspeed is useless anyway. Gotta see how all this turns out.. Oh and i really like the burrow-movemet, that upgrade should be seen way more oftn now!
EPT
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