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HotS Balance Update - November 11 - Page 19

Forum Index > SC2 General
1858 CommentsPost a Reply
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Kevin_Sorbo
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada3217 Posts
November 12 2013 04:43 GMT
#361
On November 12 2013 13:40 lystier wrote:
Oracle is ridiculously OP now.

vanilla marines shitting their pants all over the galaxy
The mind is like a parachute, it doesnt work unless its open. - Zappa
Doc Brawler
Profile Joined November 2011
United States260 Posts
November 12 2013 04:46 GMT
#362
They couldn't even give up 2.7.... blizz runs a hard bargin :p
I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds
midnight999
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States257 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-12 04:48:05
November 12 2013 04:47 GMT
#363
In my opinion for the Roach, I think that Tunneling Claw should have been combined with Glial Reconstitution as a single upgrade, which makes the Roach move faster on surface AND enable to move while burrowed.

Now, the Oracle speed buff is just ridiculous.
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
November 12 2013 04:47 GMT
#364
On November 12 2013 13:42 askmc70 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2013 13:40 ZAiNs wrote:
On November 12 2013 13:24 Lunareste wrote:
are the remastered Brood War songs in game already?

No, that'll probably be for the next big client patch that updates clans and the other stuff they outline at Blizzcon.

when will this patch be?

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/11523759/starcraft-ii-update-panel-recap-at-blizzcon-2013-11-8-2013

'Near future'. Probably sometime in December.
manicshock
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada741 Posts
November 12 2013 04:47 GMT
#365
On November 12 2013 10:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2013 09:56 washikie wrote:
On November 12 2013 08:41 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Oracles ? YEY SO STRONK LATEGAME NOW ! IT S NOT LIKE SOS AND DUCKDEOK WON THEIR TVP WITH PROXY ORACLES.


They didn't, actually. sOs built Proxy oracles in basically every match with Bomber and it was shut down pretty much every time with no trouble on Bomber's part. Far from winning those games for sOs, they put him in a tough position he had to come back from.


They looked like they were shut down but, they actualy did a fair amount of indirect damage. Oracles dont just hurt terran directly they greatly limit the build order options of terran, because if terran does not have 8 reines to fend off the orcle terran dies. The oracle also forces terran to stay in thier base and can force them to camp reines in the main. Its just like terran drops, its not just the fact that they kill probes that makes them strong its the fact that they force protss to invest into drop deffense and stay in thier base. It seems somewhat silly then to make a unit which can force this kind of response so early in the game stronger because it will force terran to build x# of reines before any possible orcle timings even more than it does. Orcle play is something that you dont realy react to because it comes out so early, so what this change realy does is enhance protos's ability to force terran to play certain styles.


In WoL prior to the Queen buff, it was 100% standard for Terrans to open with 2-4 Hellions. Sometimes he'd get lucky and win the game outright, but far more often he'd simply gain map control and force the Zerg to open defensively and stay in their base longer until roach tech was done. There was no comparable way for Zerg to dictate the pace of the game early on--there were all-ins, but not the same sort of map control and pressure built right into standard openings. In other words, for the early game, Terran were in the drivers seat. Did that make TvZ at the time a bad matchup? Hell no, TvZ of the pre-queen buff era was the best WoL matchup.

Oracles as a standard, non-gimmicky way for Protoss to open that doesn't necessarily win the game outright most of the time, but that gains map control and scouting and allows Toss to dictate pace early on, is not in of itself imbalanced.


Wait. So we allow the protoss who already clearly has an advantage in the late game to dictate the early game which leads in the mid game where it's generally even or at least terran stands a chance? Right. I'm following you here. So as long as Protoss can control at least 2/3 and influence the 3rd phase of the game, TvP is balanced.
Never argue with an idiot. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
November 12 2013 04:51 GMT
#366
It's been a while since the last big balance patch. I had forgotten how awesome these threads could be!
KT best KT ~ 2014
Aserrin
Profile Joined October 2011
Uruguay231 Posts
November 12 2013 04:54 GMT
#367
So let me get this straight

Protoss is the strongest, and they buff it

Terran is the weakest, and they nerf it
Doc Brawler
Profile Joined November 2011
United States260 Posts
November 12 2013 04:55 GMT
#368
I read for the the lolz^^
I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds
FrogsAreDogs
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Canada181 Posts
November 12 2013 04:56 GMT
#369
Oracles aren't being used as much as Blizzard wanted because it is a highly volatile unit. All terrans know what it is like to lose to proxy oracles. As a result, current metagame involves overpreparing for oracles from terrans part in the double rax marine heavy openings.

This update only makes Oracles MORE volatile, which, in my opinion will not make the game more enjoyable.
YO
BoggieMan
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
520 Posts
November 12 2013 04:57 GMT
#370
On November 12 2013 12:00 zev318 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2013 11:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:
On November 12 2013 11:48 NovemberstOrm wrote:
On November 12 2013 11:47 VayneAuthority wrote:
only people that played league at any point would understand the magnitude of the tank change. Attack speed changes even at lower then 10% is such a large difference to the game. Bomber's style push that he displayed at blizzcon with the Marines/tanks will be extremely hard to stop I think for a while until people learn what to do against it.

Oracle buff is stupid, it already sees a lot of use. what about the carrier, even the tempest(which has its niche but obviously is still a but underpowered)

armory buff is pretty bad as well, why makes choices hurp durp here just have upgrades for everything.

Mech TvP is shaping up to be absurdly strong between those two changes once people learn how to play it.

The roach change could force observers which is obviously bad for protoss, seems like not a well thought out change considering the 2 counters to roach come out of robo.

I don't think you can realistically buff the carrier without it being over-powered, it will always be over-powered or under-powered never in between.


I disagree. A minor cost or build time buff wouldn't be gamebreaking. For example, if Carriers spawned with 8 interceptors instead of 4, it'd help slightly reduce the window of vulnerability when teching to Carriers (effectively 100 minerals cheaper and 30 seconds less to full strength) without making the unit itself overpowered.


i think you have to look at the carrier as "why would i build this instead of phoenix/voidray"


Aren't carriers better against hydras than voids? But i guess spending the money on voids and templar is better then, unless they have swarmhosts.
NovemberstOrm
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada16217 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-12 04:59:05
November 12 2013 04:58 GMT
#371
On November 12 2013 13:31 Salient wrote:
I thought tanks were getting a faster attack. Did Blizzard decide not to do that?

From the OP

Siege Mode attack period decreased from 3.0 to 2.8.
Moderatorlickypiddy
awesomoecalypse
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2235 Posts
November 12 2013 04:59 GMT
#372
On November 12 2013 13:47 manicshock wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2013 10:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
On November 12 2013 09:56 washikie wrote:
On November 12 2013 08:41 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Oracles ? YEY SO STRONK LATEGAME NOW ! IT S NOT LIKE SOS AND DUCKDEOK WON THEIR TVP WITH PROXY ORACLES.


They didn't, actually. sOs built Proxy oracles in basically every match with Bomber and it was shut down pretty much every time with no trouble on Bomber's part. Far from winning those games for sOs, they put him in a tough position he had to come back from.


They looked like they were shut down but, they actualy did a fair amount of indirect damage. Oracles dont just hurt terran directly they greatly limit the build order options of terran, because if terran does not have 8 reines to fend off the orcle terran dies. The oracle also forces terran to stay in thier base and can force them to camp reines in the main. Its just like terran drops, its not just the fact that they kill probes that makes them strong its the fact that they force protss to invest into drop deffense and stay in thier base. It seems somewhat silly then to make a unit which can force this kind of response so early in the game stronger because it will force terran to build x# of reines before any possible orcle timings even more than it does. Orcle play is something that you dont realy react to because it comes out so early, so what this change realy does is enhance protos's ability to force terran to play certain styles.


In WoL prior to the Queen buff, it was 100% standard for Terrans to open with 2-4 Hellions. Sometimes he'd get lucky and win the game outright, but far more often he'd simply gain map control and force the Zerg to open defensively and stay in their base longer until roach tech was done. There was no comparable way for Zerg to dictate the pace of the game early on--there were all-ins, but not the same sort of map control and pressure built right into standard openings. In other words, for the early game, Terran were in the drivers seat. Did that make TvZ at the time a bad matchup? Hell no, TvZ of the pre-queen buff era was the best WoL matchup.

Oracles as a standard, non-gimmicky way for Protoss to open that doesn't necessarily win the game outright most of the time, but that gains map control and scouting and allows Toss to dictate pace early on, is not in of itself imbalanced.


Wait. So we allow the protoss who already clearly has an advantage in the late game to dictate the early game which leads in the mid game where it's generally even or at least terran stands a chance? Right. I'm following you here. So as long as Protoss can control at least 2/3 and influence the 3rd phase of the game, TvP is balanced.


My ideal scenario would actually be that Tanks are made strong enough that if Terran can build a full mech army with good upgrades and anti-air support, they should be able to take on Protoss armies in the lategame and win consistently if they control well. And in return, I'd like to see Protoss made good enough at harass that they have various ways to stretch the Terran thin and try to keep him from amassing his desired compostion. This, btw, was more or less the BW dynamic, with Protoss using an early game advantage, followed by drops, harass and small engagements throughout the game, while Terran tended to play defensively while trying to get to a mech army that could roll the Protoss.

In buffing Tanks (both directly, and by combining upgrades to give them better synergy with air support) and buffing Oracle mobility, I think Blizzard is trying to move in this direction. The question is, are they going far enough with it? It will be hard to say without seeing it in play--but if there does turn out to be an imbalance in favor of Protoss, I'd like to see them respond not by nerfing Toss, but by further buffing Terran mech (perhaps even with specific anti-toss buffs via bonus damage vs shields). I really enjoy the thought of a PvT that revolves around Protoss trying to consistently harass throughout the game with high mobility, high damage, but very fragile and very expensive units, while meanwhile Terran is playing a defensive, positional game trying to gradually take the map and put together a powerful mech composition that is slow and cumbersome to manage but is dominant head on. Like I said, I can't say whether this patch will get us there, but that's where I'd like to see the game go.
He drone drone drone. Me win. - ogsMC
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
November 12 2013 05:01 GMT
#373
On November 12 2013 13:54 Aserrin wrote:
So let me get this straight

Protoss is the strongest, and they buff it

Terran is the weakest, and they nerf it


No serious person thinks Terran is weak. The issue is more that Terran can be boring. The Terran changes were supposed to open up new play styles. I hope it works. Remember how awesome Mvp's mech was in WoL before speedvacs gave bio such a gigantic buff?
Plecto
Profile Joined July 2012
Norway30 Posts
November 12 2013 05:02 GMT
#374
Catastrophic balance patch. U tried to justify removing the mine from the game by giving the siege tank +6.66 attack speed buff ? HAEHAEHEAHEHEAHEAEA

User was warned for this post
You have been punished
Aserrin
Profile Joined October 2011
Uruguay231 Posts
November 12 2013 05:04 GMT
#375
No one uses tanks outside of TvT, the siege tank "buff" doesn't almost affect balance, and doesn't even amount to anything because it doesn't give a consistent second volley.
InfamousOne
Profile Joined April 2013
United States110 Posts
November 12 2013 05:05 GMT
#376
this patch is a joke.... an absolute joke

protoss with expand proxy oracle into upgraded chargelot archon HT with storm off 2 base with no early game units other than oracle becuz msc defends everything is going to take over

now terrans, who were already being dealt with fine by zergs in tvz, will start losing that matchup too...

only terran matchup that is balanced is tvt
architecture
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States643 Posts
November 12 2013 05:08 GMT
#377
On November 12 2013 13:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2013 13:47 manicshock wrote:
On November 12 2013 10:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
On November 12 2013 09:56 washikie wrote:
On November 12 2013 08:41 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Oracles ? YEY SO STRONK LATEGAME NOW ! IT S NOT LIKE SOS AND DUCKDEOK WON THEIR TVP WITH PROXY ORACLES.


They didn't, actually. sOs built Proxy oracles in basically every match with Bomber and it was shut down pretty much every time with no trouble on Bomber's part. Far from winning those games for sOs, they put him in a tough position he had to come back from.


They looked like they were shut down but, they actualy did a fair amount of indirect damage. Oracles dont just hurt terran directly they greatly limit the build order options of terran, because if terran does not have 8 reines to fend off the orcle terran dies. The oracle also forces terran to stay in thier base and can force them to camp reines in the main. Its just like terran drops, its not just the fact that they kill probes that makes them strong its the fact that they force protss to invest into drop deffense and stay in thier base. It seems somewhat silly then to make a unit which can force this kind of response so early in the game stronger because it will force terran to build x# of reines before any possible orcle timings even more than it does. Orcle play is something that you dont realy react to because it comes out so early, so what this change realy does is enhance protos's ability to force terran to play certain styles.


In WoL prior to the Queen buff, it was 100% standard for Terrans to open with 2-4 Hellions. Sometimes he'd get lucky and win the game outright, but far more often he'd simply gain map control and force the Zerg to open defensively and stay in their base longer until roach tech was done. There was no comparable way for Zerg to dictate the pace of the game early on--there were all-ins, but not the same sort of map control and pressure built right into standard openings. In other words, for the early game, Terran were in the drivers seat. Did that make TvZ at the time a bad matchup? Hell no, TvZ of the pre-queen buff era was the best WoL matchup.

Oracles as a standard, non-gimmicky way for Protoss to open that doesn't necessarily win the game outright most of the time, but that gains map control and scouting and allows Toss to dictate pace early on, is not in of itself imbalanced.


Wait. So we allow the protoss who already clearly has an advantage in the late game to dictate the early game which leads in the mid game where it's generally even or at least terran stands a chance? Right. I'm following you here. So as long as Protoss can control at least 2/3 and influence the 3rd phase of the game, TvP is balanced.


My ideal scenario would actually be that Tanks are made strong enough that if Terran can build a full mech army with good upgrades and anti-air support, they should be able to take on Protoss armies in the lategame and win consistently if they control well. And in return, I'd like to see Protoss made good enough at harass that they have various ways to stretch the Terran thin and try to keep him from amassing his desired compostion. This, btw, was more or less the BW dynamic, with Protoss using an early game advantage, followed by drops, harass and small engagements throughout the game, while Terran tended to play defensively while trying to get to a mech army that could roll the Protoss.

In buffing Tanks (both directly, and by combining upgrades to give them better synergy with air support) and buffing Oracle mobility, I think Blizzard is trying to move in this direction. The question is, are they going far enough with it? It will be hard to say without seeing it in play--but if there does turn out to be an imbalance in favor of Protoss, I'd like to see them respond not by nerfing Toss, but by further buffing Terran mech (perhaps even with specific anti-toss buffs via bonus damage vs shields). I really enjoy the thought of a PvT that revolves around Protoss trying to consistently harass throughout the game with high mobility, high damage, but very fragile and very expensive units, while meanwhile Terran is playing a defensive, positional game trying to gradually take the map and put together a powerful mech composition that is slow and cumbersome to manage but is dominant head on. Like I said, I can't say whether this patch will get us there, but that's where I'd like to see the game go.


It's in the game. Except the roles are reversed.

There's nothing wrong with only 2 core units + 1/2 tech unit support. That was the case in BW. The problem that is boring is the nature of combat. I think Colo is one of the biggest issues here. Colo requires a hard counter that doesn't do anything against the rest of the army. So we have potentially two armies that build up to 15m with 1/2 army value in units that only work against each other. And these units have to be babied the whole time.

This matchup would be 10x more interesting with only templar. Templars can be split apart from the main army and still do damage, they require positioning, have much more interesting AOE.
tpfkan
Mutineer
Profile Joined March 2013
New Zealand179 Posts
November 12 2013 05:09 GMT
#378
OK, But we do not see any late game reapers play. We still see oracle time from time build later game, I NEVER saw reapers build after start of game..

My propouse, give reapers map wide blink ability. Make an armory as prerequisite for it and give it a long cooldown for start, so people do not cry too mach.

So, reapers still could be used for scouting later game, by blinking at any point of the map and run around.
KingofGods
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1218 Posts
November 12 2013 05:10 GMT
#379
The problem is when do you get the armories to take advantage of this upgrade buff?

You most certainly don't have enough gas on 1 base unless you plan on doing some kind of 1 base play like thor drops. Even then that doesn't actually allow you to start upgrading, only having the armory. On 2 bases you have to sacrifice a factory in order to get the armory and then start upgrading. At this point you are either going to have factory units or vikings, not both. 2 armories on 2 bases? Forget about it.

The armory buff only affects late game mech's transition to air. You still have to survive until the late game to make it worthwhile.
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2142 Posts
November 12 2013 05:11 GMT
#380
On November 12 2013 12:50 jojamon wrote:
Show nested quote +

they should buff carrier and battlecruiser and nerf tempest. bc vs carrier centric lategame armies would be awesome


I agree...or at least nerf the fact that tempests kill massive air units ridiculously fast. BCs are so bad in all matchups, even worse than carriers IMO. Maybe make Yamato a cooldown based ability, or make it so BCs cant get feedbacked.


Except tempests are garbage against any non-massive unit, so maybe buff the base damage while heavily nerfing the bonus damage - perhaps something like 40 (+20 vs massive) with +4/+2 upgrades?
vibeo gane,
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