EPTBlizzCon SC2 Panel Summary - Page 10
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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321 Posts
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Dreamsmasher2
Canada38 Posts
On November 09 2013 20:49 VArsovskiSC wrote: Let's face it guys = the new Macro in SC2 is much more APM and attention-demanding than in BW used to be (ofc. - with the exception of TvZ Bio play..  )It's like if they implemented things as Lalush said, it would be almost impossible to play well.. SC2 is much more fast-paced game in terms of mineral-gathering ratio therefore much more Macro-over-micro-demanding.. Sure BW had much harder mechanics in demand cause of no multi-building selection and such things, but again - in SC2 minerals are much more fastly gathered, so overall IMO ends up more Macro-demanding game.. However - DK could at least acknowledge and say like something, "We saw the video and we're currently pleased as to how units behave but we'll see if some of the lesser micro-d or lesser used units continue to have their status as lesser used units then we'd like to implement and test them with some of those changes".. I for example would like some Improvements to the Vikings and Carriers.. Maybe Corruptors could be affordable (if not reccomendable) to have a small benefit of those changes as well.. Like --> CAREFULLY choose which units to improve in their responsiveness.. IMO Vikings and Carriers are #1 in the "club" there.. AND HERE'S THE BEST PART - the possibility is ALREADY THERE, and can be made sooooo subtle and so accurate in 2 decimal points any moment there.. As for the other/rest things said/mentioned --> I'm so pleased with the 2 things they said though: 1 - is the BW music remastered (hopefully in ways that fits their SC2 counterparts so it would be a "lean" experience with the music ingame), and 2 - is the careful observation of Swarm-Host play..  you think sc2 is more macro demanding then BW ??? lol... its the complete opposite for me BW macro is by FAR harder then sc2. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On November 09 2013 20:49 VArsovskiSC wrote: Let's face it guys = the new Macro in SC2 is much more APM and attention-demanding than in BW used to be lol, you mustn't have played much BW. Macro in SC2 is WAY less demanding. | ||
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iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
The reason I'd like to think that, is that so much of what LaLuSh described as bugs really look like bugs and I believe that casual viewers, at the very least on the subconscious level, will appreciate how the game would be if those bugs were gone. I, personally, am crap at micro, be it BW or SC2, to the extent that I didn't know any of the micro tricks LaLuSh explained in his video (save for the stuff from the StarCraft Master map), but on a subconscious level, I have always appreciated some of the movement in BW, and specifically some of the movement that is impossible in SC2 due to the bugs that LaLuSh outlined. There is something beautiful in watching a Muta stack glide back and forth, in perfect rhythm to coincide with their attack speed, one-shotting one marine at a time. It is not beautiful to watch a bunch of Vikings arrive on location, bug out with their separation radius and awkwardly mess up their formation. A single Banshee kiting a group of marines perfectly is the stuff that would make legends, just like the SC2 Master map shows us. Two Banshees trying to kite but messing up for each other and getting shot down is hardly working as intended, in my opinion. And a single Oracle getting ahead of everyone else because the others are suddenly capable of insta-stopping only if they want to watch their friend get the last shot... That's just silly. Besides, a lot of micro is easily recognizable to casual viewers. Everyone knows that you have to actively tell your units to do stuff and the Banshee, in my opinion, is a prime example of how this translates to the casual viewer. For the Banshee to fire, it has to turn around, so you get a visual clue that the player has told the Banshee "something" that made the Banshee fire on the marines and you know that the Banshee has gotten an additional order to continue kiting. Even that "something" that the Banshee was told is unimportant to the casual viewer (and on a personal note, I'm perfectly fine with it just being a single attack command - no need to stop-patrol-move-attack or whatever). What is important, though, is that the casual viewer sees "This player spent some of his attention on that one single unit and he managed to kill off those marines. That was awesome". The Muta stack from BW, killing off one marine at a time, gliding back and forth is another example. Anyone would know that the Mutas don't fly back and forth by themselves; they have to be babysat in order to do it. In summary, my opinion is that some of the bugs that LaLuSh demonstrated are unwanted behaviour, in that they make the units act unnaturally. And even if a casual viewer is not able to consciously point out what's wrong, I believe he or she would appreciate an increased naturalness in movements. I know I did when I saw the video! Even though I couldn't have begun to explain what was wrong before I saw it, I still appreciated the increased naturalness of movement with LaLuSh's tinkering. Moreover, "movement micro" (that manipulates movement only without using abilities) is not a problem in and of itself, as long as that micro is translated as a visual cue to the viewer. Simply having every unit twitch and face the target whenever they shoot would be sufficient in that regard, I think. Even in a fly-by moving shot, it will be obvious by the twitching and facing that micro has been applied. I agree with what I hope David Kim meant; fancy order combos is not a priority and visual cues are the way to go. But he should watch the video again: The possibility for micro that will arise by fixing the bugs caused by separation radius etc. is not mutually exclusive with micro that is visible for even the most casual of viewers. And I believe fixing the bugs would provide for a better experience, both for the gamers and the audience. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45042 Posts
I gotta say, I'm a sucker for the cutesy +achievement, +decal, +portrait stuff. | ||
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75
Germany4057 Posts
i hope they implement some of lalushs ideas in LotV. (my hopes are still alive ^^) | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
We have nothing really to look forward to, and they just refuse to listen to the community. I was hoping that this Blizzcon + a great patch + some promising future comments would get some people back on board and get an upward, or at least stable, base that can hold strong going back into LotV. Instead we get some portraits, and that they are keeping an eye on swarm hosts. HotS has been so disappointing with the actual impact it has had on the game, I was hoping they would look at patching the game to actually have HotS matter. I find it funny they said Terran felt "relatively complete" so they wanted to show the other races some love in HotS yet the most impactful unit has been the widow mine and the medivac boost. Swarm host, vipers, oracle, and tempest are hardly ever used. Honestly, they are to worried about making the viewer experience for a casual person to "easy to watch!" Seriously, give the community some credit to pull new people in and explain the game. How about catering toward your hardcore fans you are losing instead of the randoms you hope tune in and watch. Not to mention it is totally contradictory because they say they want viewers to easily see great micro, yet many fights are giant balls of DPS that just run into each other and after 3 seconds one is still left and the other is gone. How does that show off micro to anyone? Two balls of armies disappearing in 3 seconds? They just really don't seem to have a clue. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
You honestly think HotS did not have any impact on SC2? I think it actually had a pretty big one and I would never, ever want to go back to WoL even though HotS has its problems too.. I for one enjoy many of these things they introduced, I kinda get used to Blizzard not bringing miracles but I still love the game so I focus on the positive things. Now, when it comes to LotV though I expect a lot more than this, obviously! | ||
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 09 2013 22:18 Dingobloo wrote: Did they give any indication about when patch 2.1 will drop? I notice the WC3 units in the editor aren't until "2014" and that seems like a long time for a pretty limited patch. I think they are referring to having ALL the unnits by 2014 in the editor. 2.1, or at least the balance patch, is scheduled to be in one or two weeks. | ||
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howLiN
Portugal1676 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45042 Posts
On November 09 2013 22:21 howLiN wrote: If ladder maps are to be aligned with the WCS season maps, does that mean there will be 3 ladder seasons per year? Didn't they want to make/ keep seasons shorter than ~4 months? If the calendar year is divided into 3 WCS seasons, then Blizzard could hypothetically make 6 ladder seasons (two ladder seasons per WCS season), I suppose. 2 months per season seems okay imo. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On November 09 2013 22:11 KeksX wrote: @FluE: You honestly think HotS did not have any impact on SC2? I think it actually had a pretty big one and I would never, ever want to go back to WoL even though HotS has its problems too.. I for one enjoy many of these things they introduced, I kinda get used to Blizzard not bringing miracles but I still love the game so I focus on the positive things. Now, when it comes to LotV though I expect a lot more than this, obviously! Widow mine, mothership core, medivac boost. Name more than these three that are used in significant numbers. | ||
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Damnight
Germany222 Posts
Blink for example: Everybody notices that it's either every stalker, junks or single stalkers being microed. Nobody cares which hotkey and mousemoved is used - a casual viewer, doesn't even see that. What the viewer sees is that stalkers flash back and don't die because they dodge the damage. I don't think the viewer has to know how it is microed, he just has to see the result. If Vikings were to shoot instantly or delayed, the viewer doesn't care. He cares about Colossus dying and Vikings survivng. I'm also convinced that the experience for a gamer will be enhanced if the units feel more responsive. | ||
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ETisME
12514 Posts
On November 09 2013 22:43 Grumbels wrote: Widow mine, mothership core, medivac boost. Name more than these three that are used in significant numbers. hydra speed muta speed regen phoenix new range reapers void ray charge free hallucination new ultra damage new raven seeker missile dt shrine cost decrease | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
And I think that since there's higher resource-gathering rate in SC2, it's actually a more demanding macro game.. The only real reason why anyone would say that BW was more macro demanding is because there wasn't the auto-mine feature so sometimes I even had 4-5 Probes that weren't mining so had to re-check and order them to mine.. Still - pretty sure that in BW could get like 1.5-2k minerals unused or sth veeeeeery rarely (unless while Muta-stack-micro-ing), while in SC2 that can happen rather more easily.. My personal explanation for that happening is the higher rate of mineral gathering.. And pls guys could you read the whole post before replying on the very first thing disagreed with.. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 09 2013 07:38 wUndertUnge wrote: It sounds like this SC2 talk doesn't include any WCS decisions...which is good It's because they aren't finalized. Why do I keep getting a message says I'm attempting to double post after one click? It's odd that happened several times the other day too. ;/ | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On November 09 2013 23:12 ETisME wrote: hydra speed muta speed regen phoenix new range reapers void ray charge free hallucination new ultra damage new raven seeker missile dt shrine cost decrease that's a bit cheating since most of those are just balance adjustments | ||
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mihajovics
179 Posts
On November 09 2013 23:12 VArsovskiSC wrote: Yes, I DO think that SC2 is more macro-demanding than that in BW.. In fact I was an icCup player on D+ level (around 1550 pts at my highest) for some time.. And I think that since there's higher resource-gathering rate in SC2, it's actually a more demanding macro game.. The only real reason why anyone would say that BW was more macro demanding is because there wasn't the auto-mine feature so sometimes I even had 4-5 Probes that weren't mining so had to re-check and order them to mine.. Still - pretty sure that in BW could get like 1.5-2k minerals unused or sth veeeeeery rarely (unless while Muta-stack-micro-ing), while in SC2 that can happen rather more easily.. My personal explanation for that happening is the higher rate of mineral gathering.. And pls read the whole post before you guys just "bash" on the very first thing you guys read.. aren't you guys talking about different things? it took more APM in BW because of no automine... so in that sense it was more demanding. but you might be right about what you're saying about resource collection | ||
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