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On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED. So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining
hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea
mc is world champion!!!
destiny is a troll, people find him funny
now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong
either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
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On November 08 2013 03:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 03:57 Squat wrote:On November 08 2013 03:20 JimSocks wrote:
nothing wrong with being a manager.
but can we get some pro gamer girls? It's not exactly a commodity we can manufacture. Also as a side not because I'm too lazy to make more posts, it annoys the fuck out of me when people say stuff like "we need more female casters and players" because it would make the community more diverse or some trite shit like that. No we don't, we need more good casters(as in really need) and more good players(we're pretty set on this end). I don't care about someone's genitalia if they can't perform. People mention Scarlett all the time as if her gender identity had some major impact on her popularity, newsflash, if she was getting stomped out in the Ro32 in challenger league every tournament, no one would give two shits about her. She is one of two non koreans who can regularly compete with and even beat high level koreans, that's the key thing here. We HAVE female pro gamers, Maddelisk, Kaitlyn are the one's I can name just off the top of my head, and how much buzz do they generate? Zero, because they have not produced any kind of results yet. This is a good thing. What you are really saying is that we need pro gamer girls who are Blizzcon material, but why is that the case? Asking for more female pro gamers just for the sake of some weird, artificial gender balance in the pro scene is basically asking for mascots. Scarlett is actually a good example of the problem--being that many people blame her genetalia for her wins and not her talent.
What? Are there seriously people going "He has a penis, therefore he is good at starcraft"or the other way around "She has a vagina, therefore she must be good at starcraft"? I've never heard ANYTHING like that and frankly if I would, I would eat my own face because this is just stupidly retarded.
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Sweden7978 Posts
On November 08 2013 04:08 Iceman331 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. Scarlett.
Well that was not a very good move.
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On November 08 2013 01:41 Nuclease wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 09:50 bombsauce wrote:On November 07 2013 09:43 LongShot27 wrote:
I don't really care about girls in gaming or hosting or whatever, gender is irrelevant, but saying the equivalent of a suit is a cocktail dress is just flat out dumb, the equivalent is a full dress not a miniskirt I mean a "full dress" implies a formality that would pair with a tuxedo. Women have a lot more liberty is getting away with things like skirts and cocktail dresses etc. to go along with professional wear, especially in the business world. However, just like in the professional world, there is a sort of imaginary "decency line" tied to just how short that skirt or dress is. Whoah, whoah, whoah. Tuxedo =/= suit. To find the equivalent of a tuxedo, you'd have to wear a ball gown (and you don't want to wear one of those, they're a BITCH to get on). Suits can be quite casual. I have a few hanging up in my closet which are widely considered to be for semi-formal wear, nothing more. A cocktail dress is actually a very good equivalent for a normal suit, because they are considered semi-formal. Cocktail dresses are not mini-skirts, they typically reach down just above the knee or even to the ankle, and are not mini-skirts at all. With so many idiots trying to impose dress rules on women to make them look less slutty, it's incredible the amount of them that don't even understand what women's clothes are like. I'm not implying that you're one of them, but men like that are quite common. I've never seen a pant suit on any woman in a semi-formal situation. Moreover, imagine how gross it would be if all the women at eSports tournaments started wearing pantsuits. Blech.  If you don't believe me, take a look at this wikipedia page (emphasis on "semi-formal" and the ankle length comment  )
Bro, I appreciate your post and that is because you completely agreed with me. I dunno if you misunderstood what I wrote but we essentially made the same argument.
I definitely don't consider myself a fashion or style expert, but I have a lot of experience in business situations that call for dress ranging from casual all the way to tuxedo formal and that is where my perspective came from.
Thanks for validating haha.
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On November 08 2013 04:08 Iceman331 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. Scarlett.
You mean the player who, whenever she wins something, has haters come out of the woodwork calling her a man/he.
Her successes are constantly being attributed to the fact that she was once a male.
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On November 08 2013 04:08 Shadow_Dog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED. So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. Can you provide an example of each of those players listed? I'm not really following your argument here.
How they act is masculine. There is a reason that you don't describe what they do as feminine.
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On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED. So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
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On November 08 2013 03:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. What bothers you about the word patriarchy? Does the use of the word patriarchy in discussions about a male dominated hobby bother you? Does the idea that a patriarchy might exits or that men have to deal with 10000% less creepy sexism than women upset you? Or do you just dislike the letters in patriarchy? After all, patriarchy is just a word.
The problem with using the word "Patriarchy" is that it's meaning has been so warped.
pa·tri·ar·chy (ptr-ärk)
n. pl. pa·tri·ar·chies In both senses also called patriarchate.
1. A social system in which the father is the head of the family and men have authority over women and children.
The key phrase here is "men have authority over women". As in, whatever the man says, goes. Very few modern day examples still exist including the most obvious, Saudi Arabia. It's definition is also very strongly related to family structure.
I don't mean to turn this into a feminist discussion or anything like that, but I agree the term patriarchy is cringe worthy when you use it as a hyperbole like you did (even though creepy sexism admittedly exists). It would only be true if you could go to a Lan tournament or something and actually give orders to women such as not allowing them to play or forcing them to act some way and if they defied the order, they would be punished because they are female.
Women in e-sports have the freedom to do as they please, and although they do 100% face more challenges than men including all the ogling mongoloids and one of the thickest glass ceilings I can think of, no one is telling them they cant participate because they are a woman. These kind of exaggerations about MEN in e-sports only demonizes them and potentially leads to even more resentment for women trying to participate.
tl;dr sexism =/= patriarchy so don't use it that way.
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On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED. So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
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On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Youre using the word professional very loosely. Anna is actually involved in esports professionally(and not getting a replacement keyboard once a year), in fact considering her position is with EG, she's MC of "house moms."
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On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED. So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
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On November 08 2013 04:49 1Dhalism wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Youre using the word professional very loosely. Anna is actually involved in esports professionally(and not getting a replacement keyboard once a year), in fact considering her position is with EG, she's MC of "house moms."
Exactly, Artosis isn't a progamer(he doesn't compete in tournaments at a pro level, and his streams are hardly his main job), yet he is working in esports.
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On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED. So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess)
2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine
3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
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On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED. So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
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On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote:
Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining. Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal. I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED. So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
Some societies. And particular subsets of societies have much further to go than others. Case in point - gaming. The implicit rights and attitudes towards women are behind what the norm has become in more generalized, broader societies such as countries and federations (think EU, etc.).
If you were to try and break down some of the more prevalent attitudes in gaming in general, I think you'd find some more racism/sexism/prejudice than, say, an analysis of business and economic practices in the EU. The anonymity of the Internet has done quite a bit of harm to some individuals' ability to interact appropriately with others.
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I think any big community has its share of stupid people and people who will see the forest for the trees. I'm guessing that big corporations and real sports companies are taking all of this into account so they ignore that kind of stuff and just give people content and let them pick it apart to the bone.
My hypothetical question is, if SC2 is that popular where most of the people ACTUALLY involved in the industry are OK with just making content and letting the forums rip it apart and misconstrue it, will it be sustainable since the community involvement has been such a big part of SC2s development (as a scene)
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It's great that this interview explicitly brought up issues of gender in the sc2 community, not only the good, but also the challenges.
It would be amazing if sc2 were the first large-scale, competitive game that had a real, prolonged, and constructive discussion about gender and sexuality issues. It would likely be a huge boon to the popularity of the game among women too...
edit: I know attracting more female sc2 players was one of Day9's big goals about a year ago... I wonder where he is on that.
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On November 08 2013 05:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:22 JP Dayne wrote:
[quote]
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for.
but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore. You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED. So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are. Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine. There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you. The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other. As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine.
Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
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On November 08 2013 05:47 Finganforn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 05:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question. I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are. Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine. There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you. The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other. As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society. Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine. But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral. More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
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EPT
