I don't usually post on TL, but Anna's comments about the challenges women face every day in eSports and gaming culture at large were really savvy, and I thought I might post some of them here to try to get a discussion going.
Will: I recall a very mixed community reaction to the “pin-up” style photos you did for a SteelSeries promotion during Breast Cancer Awareness Month. How would you respond to criticism that you were reinforcing deeply held stereotypes about women in gaming?
Anna: I find it very distressing how easily expressions of femininity are interpreted as inappropriate. We must be very careful to recognize that simply being attractively feminine does not preclude an eSports community member’s ability to contribute. As for the photos in question, I have some skill in modeling, and I like to use that skill when it can be of use to promote eSports organizations.
It’s a little ironic that some people seemed to be offended by me wearing a full-length black body suit and posing with a headset, but not at all by the video I produced featuring men talking about how much they loved boobs. However, as far as I was able, I evaluated the comments I received, filed their worthy insights away for my growth, and took the time to re-evaluate the project. Ultimately, I deemed it worthy to stand for itself, and I hope it may have been an instrument of positivity in the end.
Will: What about the furor over your and Rachel Quirico’s wardrobes at IPL3? Same idea?
Anna: At that event, which took place in Las Vegas, she and I wore mainly cocktail dresses. Because of this, we were accused of inappropriately “stealing attention from the players.” I was told that dressing in a suit (read: more like a man) would have been a more appropriate choice. While I personally don’t mind suits, I was baffled as to why no one bothered to recognize that the female equivalent of the male host’s semi-formal dress code is, by tradition, a cocktail dress (nevermind that Rachel and I were not in charge of our wardrobe -- we wore what the event designers requested).
Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Prosser Robinson had the unenviable job as the house mom at the since-shuttered Lair in Phoenix. As one of the new Lair’s infrequent female visitors, she labeled the players’ sheets and pillows (which tend to disappear) and put up a note on the refrigerator, encouraging them to write their names on food they wished to keep.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Maybe you should stop disrespecting someone trying to be part of the community?
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Maybe you should stop disrespecting someone trying to be part of the community?
Not trying. Is. A very well respected person who is much loved in this community.
---
I'm astounded by how ignorant and immature a lot of people can be. For fuck's sake grow up and give people respect regardless of gender and shed these stupid fucking stereotypes. She's a woman with a hell of a lot of decency and men give her shit for contributing far more than they do and for better causes. Anger mode is activated right now.
On November 07 2013 09:22 [CCSRAM] BaoQuan wrote: Is she going to stay at the EG Lair, even though InControl is on TeamLiquid now? Or is Incontrol still staying at the EG lair?
Hahaha.
Just because I'm boring as hell I'm going to assume you're not trolling and give a serious answer: The Incontrol on TL-thing was just a PR-stunt that lasted a week. It was one of the rewards for the pizza.gg-campaign earlier this year. Incontrol is still on EG.
On November 07 2013 09:22 [CCSRAM] BaoQuan wrote: Is she going to stay at the EG Lair, even though InControl is on TeamLiquid now? Or is Incontrol still staying at the EG lair?
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Maybe you should stop disrespecting someone trying to be part of the community?
Not trying. Is. A very well respected person who is much loved in this community.
---
I'm astounded by how ignorant and immature a lot of people can be. For fuck's sake grow up and give people respect regardless of gender and shed these stupid fucking stereotypes. She's a woman with a hell of a lot of decency and men give her shit for contributing far more than they do and for better causes. Anger mode is activated right now.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Maybe you should stop disrespecting someone trying to be part of the community?
Not trying. Is. A very well respected person who is much loved in this community.
---
I'm astounded by how ignorant and immature a lot of people can be. For fuck's sake grow up and give people respect regardless of gender and shed these stupid fucking stereotypes. She's a woman with a hell of a lot of decency and men give her shit for contributing far more than they do and for better causes. Anger mode is activated right now.
Its how it always rolls when girls get involved with gaming in any way. For some reason men/boys in gaming feel the need to challenge the any woman/girl and demand they justify or prove that they are a gamer. My girlfriend runs into this all the time when we board game with a new group and I have to hold myself back every time it happens(because she is a grown ass woman and can handle herself). It is an infuriating behavior that is prevalent across all of gaming and everyone tries to justify it by saying that there are "some girls that get involved with gaming for attention." Because that is somehow justification for being a dick.
I loved the interview and I don't know why the community is so obsessed with woman's outfits and wardrobe. Pro tip for life, girls like to dress pretty and no power in the world is going to stop them, especially "Doritocracy" of SC2 fans.
I don't really care about girls in gaming or hosting or whatever, gender is irrelevant, but saying the equivalent of a suit is a cocktail dress is just flat out dumb, the equivalent is a full dress not a miniskirt
On November 07 2013 09:43 LongShot27 wrote: I don't really care about girls in gaming or hosting or whatever, gender is irrelevant, but saying the equivalent of a suit is a cocktail dress is just flat out dumb, the equivalent is a full dress not a miniskirt
A cocktail dress is formal wear for women and they were in Vegas. They are not always going to dress like Hilary Clinton running for president.
On November 07 2013 09:43 LongShot27 wrote: I don't really care about girls in gaming or hosting or whatever, gender is irrelevant, but saying the equivalent of a suit is a cocktail dress is just flat out dumb, the equivalent is a full dress not a miniskirt
I mean a "full dress" implies a formality that would pair with a tuxedo. Women have a lot more liberty is getting away with things like skirts and cocktail dresses etc. to go along with professional wear, especially in the business world.
However, just like in the professional world, there is a sort of imaginary "decency line" tied to just how short that skirt or dress is.
On November 07 2013 09:22 [CCSRAM] BaoQuan wrote: Is she going to stay at the EG Lair, even though InControl is on TeamLiquid now? Or is Incontrol still staying at the EG lair?
I am pretty sure Geoff and Anna have their own place in San Francisco.
On November 07 2013 09:43 LongShot27 wrote: I don't really care about girls in gaming or hosting or whatever, gender is irrelevant, but saying the equivalent of a suit is a cocktail dress is just flat out dumb, the equivalent is a full dress not a miniskirt
A cocktail dress is perfectly acceptable formal wear for a woman.
Will: What about the furor over your and Rachel Quirico’s wardrobes at IPL3? Same idea?
Anna: At that event, which took place in Las Vegas, she and I wore mainly cocktail dresses. Because of this, we were accused of inappropriately “stealing attention from the players.” I was told that dressing in a suit (read: more like a man) would have been a more appropriate choice. While I personally don’t mind suits, I was baffled as to why no one bothered to recognize that the female equivalent of the male host’s semi-formal dress code is, by tradition, a cocktail dress (nevermind that Rachel and I were not in charge of our wardrobe -- we wore what the event designers requested).
Literally who? Why hasnt EG disbanded yet, none of their players post consistent results. I really wish the world would stop pushing the whole "MUH ESPORTS" thing, and we could have a smaller dedicated community of players, who have actual jobs and lives outside of starcraft. The game as a whole would be far more enjoyable, and the community far less fractured, if turbonerds stopped revolving their entire lives around it.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female -- when the topic is women in gaming. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players, so you would have to look elsewhere.
On November 07 2013 10:17 Jermman wrote: Literally who? Why hasnt EG disbanded yet, none of their players post consistent results. I really wish the world would stop pushing the whole "MUH ESPORTS" thing, and we could have a smaller dedicated community of players, who have actual jobs and lives outside of starcraft. The game as a whole would be far more enjoyable, and the community far less fractured, if turbonerds stopped revolving their entire lives around it.
what.
really cool interview, looking forward to the rest of the series
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players . . . although others do.
What does listening/reading to the interview have to do with his opinion about the affiliation of a female to gaming and her validity to speak about the subject?
Edit: Of course she has more inside experience than 99.9% of men and women that read this, but that is beside the point. This interview is about female gamers. She is not a female gamer.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female -- when the topic is women in gaming. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players, so you would have to look elsewhere.
So because she isn't a player the interview isn't worth while? Anna does quite a bit in esports, whether it be behind the scenes with EG or her hosting events. She is more than qualified to talk about women in esports because esports is more than just the people playing the games.
And EG does have a female player. Look up Chocoblanka.
The topic is supposed to be women in gaming. Anna was no doubt iinterviewed on this topic because she is a female who works for a gaming team. That's sensible to an extent. But ultimately her experience is limited to being a staff worker. Like someone who works in the Yankee clubhouse. Sure that person works for the Yankees, but she/he isn't a Yankee. I would prefer the insight of an actual player who happens to be female regarding women in gaming.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players . . . although others do.
What does listening/reading to the interview have to do with his opinion about the affiliation of a female to gaming and her validity to speak about the subject?
Edit: Of course she has more inside experience than 99.9% of men and women that read this, but that is beside the point. This interview is about female gamers. She is not a female gamer.
Yes she is. She's just not a female professional gamer. Professional gamers aren't the only people in esports either.
On November 07 2013 10:43 Salient wrote: The topic is supposed to be women in gaming. Anna was no doubt iinterviewed on this topic because she is a female who works for a gaming team. That's sensible to an extent. But ultimately her experience is limited to being a staff worker. Like someone who works in the Yankee clubhouse. Sure that person works for the Yankees, but she/he isn't a Yankee. I would prefer the insight of an actual player who happens to be female regarding women in gaming.
Except she's a host, content creator, and generally prominent member of the SC2 gaming community. She has very relevant opinions on the subject of females in the gaming world.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players . . . although others do.
What does listening/reading to the interview have to do with his opinion about the affiliation of a female to gaming and her validity to speak about the subject?
Edit: Of course she has more inside experience than 99.9% of men and women that read this, but that is beside the point. This interview is about female gamers. She is not a female gamer.
Yes she is. She's just not a female professional gamer. Professional gamers aren't the only people in esports either.
This is a valid point in that she does give a voice to females that consider themselves gamers and part of the culture. The problem is that unless she has tried to break into the competitive seen (maybe she has and I don't know?) she doesn't explicitly have the genuine insight on that struggle.
However, it would seem pretty valid that she personally knows/is friends with women that do fall into that category and can give the perspective of a relatively public figure in that regard.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female -- when the topic is women in gaming. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players, so you would have to look elsewhere.
So because she isn't a player the interview isn't worth while? Anna does quite a bit in esports, whether it be behind the scenes with EG or her hosting events. She is more than qualified to talk about women in esports because esports is more than just the people playing the games.
And EG does have a female player. Look up Chocoblanka.
So maybe they should interview Chocoblanka? Why interview a staff worker instead of her?
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Maybe you should stop disrespecting someone trying to be part of the community?
Not trying. Is. A very well respected person who is much loved in this community.
Just so. I'm looking even in this thread at TL members who signed up in 2011 to 2013 critiquing the choice to interview a member of TL from 2006.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Maybe you should stop disrespecting someone trying to be part of the community?
Not trying. Is. A very well respected person who is much loved in this community.
Just so. I'm looking even in this thread at TL members who signed up in 2011 to 2013 critiquing the choice to interview a member of TL from 2006.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female -- when the topic is women in gaming. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players, so you would have to look elsewhere.
So because she isn't a player the interview isn't worth while? Anna does quite a bit in esports, whether it be behind the scenes with EG or her hosting events. She is more than qualified to talk about women in esports because esports is more than just the people playing the games.
And EG does have a female player. Look up Chocoblanka.
So maybe they should interview Chocoblanka? Why interview a staff worker instead of her?
did you read the entire interview? this is part of a series meant to get the "behind the scenes" staff some exposure. not an interview exclusively focusing on women in esports (which still would make anna an expert on the matter). if the interview's topic was something along the lines of "being a female pro gamer" i would kind of see your point. but it's not.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female -- when the topic is women in gaming. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players, so you would have to look elsewhere.
So because she isn't a player the interview isn't worth while? Anna does quite a bit in esports, whether it be behind the scenes with EG or her hosting events. She is more than qualified to talk about women in esports because esports is more than just the people playing the games.
And EG does have a female player. Look up Chocoblanka.
So maybe they should interview Chocoblanka? Why interview a staff worker instead of her?
did you read the entire interview? this is part of a series meant to get the "behind the scenes" staff some exposure. not an interview exclusively focusing on women in esports (which still would make anna an expert on the matter). if the interview's topic was something along the lines of "being a female pro gamer" i would kind of see your point. but it's not.
The interviewer created this thread, which he entited: Anna Prosser-Robinson Talks about Women & Gaming. It's pretty clear what his focus was . . .
On November 07 2013 10:43 Salient wrote: The topic is supposed to be women in gaming. Anna was no doubt iinterviewed on this topic because she is a female who works for a gaming team. That's sensible to an extent. But ultimately her experience is limited to being a staff worker. Like someone who works in the Yankee clubhouse. Sure that person works for the Yankees, but she/he isn't a Yankee. I would prefer the insight of an actual player who happens to be female regarding women in gaming.
Do not be obtuse and foolish about this. Would you be upset if TL interviewed Bumblebee? Enough to post multiple times in the thread? There is not a quota on interviews and people can interview who they please. If no-one cares, then the thread sinks like a rock, has no views, and has no comments. If people view and comment, then clearly it was an interview the community wanted.
Let the free-market of forums take over. We don't need a council of upset forum posters arbitrating who can and cannot be interviewed.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female -- when the topic is women in gaming. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players, so you would have to look elsewhere.
So because she isn't a player the interview isn't worth while? Anna does quite a bit in esports, whether it be behind the scenes with EG or her hosting events. She is more than qualified to talk about women in esports because esports is more than just the people playing the games.
And EG does have a female player. Look up Chocoblanka.
So maybe they should interview Chocoblanka? Why interview a staff worker instead of her?
did you read the entire interview? this is part of a series meant to get the "behind the scenes" staff some exposure. not an interview exclusively focusing on women in esports (which still would make anna an expert on the matter). if the interview's topic was something along the lines of "being a female pro gamer" i would kind of see your point. but it's not.
The interviewer created this thread, which he entited: Anna Prosser-Robinson Talks about Women & Gaming. It's pretty clear what his focus was . . .
And, in the interview she talks about women and she talks about gaming and she talks about how it is to be a female gamer in society and how it is to be a female working in esports.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Maybe you should stop disrespecting someone trying to be part of the community?
Not trying. Is. A very well respected person who is much loved in this community.
Just so. I'm looking even in this thread at TL members who signed up in 2011 to 2013 critiquing the choice to interview a member of TL from 2006.
I forward the motion that any TL member who signed up in 2006 and earlier be referred to as 'Senpai' by members who have signed up after. Any disrespect to a Senpai should be punished with an instant ban, followed up by real life ritual suicide. BANZAI!!
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female -- when the topic is women in gaming. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players, so you would have to look elsewhere.
So because she isn't a player the interview isn't worth while? Anna does quite a bit in esports, whether it be behind the scenes with EG or her hosting events. She is more than qualified to talk about women in esports because esports is more than just the people playing the games.
And EG does have a female player. Look up Chocoblanka.
So maybe they should interview Chocoblanka? Why interview a staff worker instead of her?
did you read the entire interview? this is part of a series meant to get the "behind the scenes" staff some exposure. not an interview exclusively focusing on women in esports (which still would make anna an expert on the matter). if the interview's topic was something along the lines of "being a female pro gamer" i would kind of see your point. but it's not.
The interviewer created this thread, which he entited: Anna Prosser-Robinson Talks about Women & Gaming. It's pretty clear what his focus was . . .
and never ever has a magazine/newspaper/website used a specifically interesting or ambivalent topic or statement from an interview to promote said interview, even though it may only make up a small part of the conversation with the interviewee.
On November 07 2013 10:43 Salient wrote: The topic is supposed to be women in gaming. Anna was no doubt iinterviewed on this topic because she is a female who works for a gaming team. That's sensible to an extent. But ultimately her experience is limited to being a staff worker. Like someone who works in the Yankee clubhouse. Sure that person works for the Yankees, but she/he isn't a Yankee. I would prefer the insight of an actual player who happens to be female regarding women in gaming.
Do not be obtuse and foolish about this. Would you be upset if TL interviewed Bumblebee? Enough to post multiple times in the thread? There is not a quota on interviews and people can interview who they please. If no-one cares, then the thread sinks like a rock, has no views, and has no comments. If people view and comment, then clearly it was an interview the community wanted.
Let the free-market of forums take over. We don't need a council of upset forum posters arbitrating who can and cannot be interviewed.
I apologize for upsetting anyone, and for what it's worth I think the interview is very good. I was just trying to give constructive feedback so maybe the interviewer would consider doing a follow up with a female professional gamer.
On November 07 2013 10:43 Salient wrote: The topic is supposed to be women in gaming. Anna was no doubt iinterviewed on this topic because she is a female who works for a gaming team. That's sensible to an extent. But ultimately her experience is limited to being a staff worker. Like someone who works in the Yankee clubhouse. Sure that person works for the Yankees, but she/he isn't a Yankee. I would prefer the insight of an actual player who happens to be female regarding women in gaming.
Do not be obtuse and foolish about this. Would you be upset if TL interviewed Bumblebee? Enough to post multiple times in the thread? There is not a quota on interviews and people can interview who they please. If no-one cares, then the thread sinks like a rock, has no views, and has no comments. If people view and comment, then clearly it was an interview the community wanted.
Let the free-market of forums take over. We don't need a council of upset forum posters arbitrating who can and cannot be interviewed.
I apologize for upsetting anyone, and for what it's worth I think the interview is very good. I was just trying to give constructive feedback so maybe the interviewer would consider doing a follow up with a female professional gamer.
Oh hey. A reasonable person. Yay! I understand where you are coming from, but do understand that based on similar threads this sort of constructive feedback on these sorts of threads quickly pick up steam and turn into the Hate Train.
On November 07 2013 10:43 Salient wrote: The topic is supposed to be women in gaming. Anna was no doubt iinterviewed on this topic because she is a female who works for a gaming team. That's sensible to an extent. But ultimately her experience is limited to being a staff worker. Like someone who works in the Yankee clubhouse. Sure that person works for the Yankees, but she/he isn't a Yankee. I would prefer the insight of an actual player who happens to be female regarding women in gaming.
Do not be obtuse and foolish about this. Would you be upset if TL interviewed Bumblebee? Enough to post multiple times in the thread? There is not a quota on interviews and people can interview who they please. If no-one cares, then the thread sinks like a rock, has no views, and has no comments. If people view and comment, then clearly it was an interview the community wanted.
Let the free-market of forums take over. We don't need a council of upset forum posters arbitrating who can and cannot be interviewed.
I apologize for upsetting anyone, and for what it's worth I think the interview is very good. I was just trying to give constructive feedback so maybe the interviewer would consider doing a follow up with a female professional gamer.
He says: "Let the free-market of forums take over" and yet this is a grotesque contradiction to the reality of the situation. Every opinion that is not positive or supportive is shut down, the posters are either flamed or banned. This hardly is a representation of a Laissez-Faire system where individual liberty and tolerance of all creeds and opinions are paramount.
Really good interview and an interesting insight into some of the behind the scenes work Anna does. As for the 'women in esports' crap, I'll just say that if we had more Annas, all the negativity surrounding girls in gaming would disappear. Funny how she married to Geoff, also a great representative. They need matching superhero costumes.
On November 07 2013 10:43 Salient wrote: The topic is supposed to be women in gaming. Anna was no doubt iinterviewed on this topic because she is a female who works for a gaming team. That's sensible to an extent. But ultimately her experience is limited to being a staff worker. Like someone who works in the Yankee clubhouse. Sure that person works for the Yankees, but she/he isn't a Yankee. I would prefer the insight of an actual player who happens to be female regarding women in gaming.
Do not be obtuse and foolish about this. Would you be upset if TL interviewed Bumblebee? Enough to post multiple times in the thread? There is not a quota on interviews and people can interview who they please. If no-one cares, then the thread sinks like a rock, has no views, and has no comments. If people view and comment, then clearly it was an interview the community wanted.
Let the free-market of forums take over. We don't need a council of upset forum posters arbitrating who can and cannot be interviewed.
I apologize for upsetting anyone, and for what it's worth I think the interview is very good. I was just trying to give constructive feedback so maybe the interviewer would consider doing a follow up with a female professional gamer.
He says: "Let the free-market of forums take over" and yet this is a grotesque contradiction to the reality of the situation. Every opinion that is not positive or supportive is shut down, the posters are either flamed or banned. This hardly is a representation of a Laissez-Faire system where individual liberty and tolerance of all creeds and opinions are paramount.
You realize we are not talking about the same thing? This negative discussion is not on the content of what she is saying, that is whether they agree or disagree with what she says. Rather, the negative discussion is whether there should be a discussion at all. It is an argument to silence an interview that the team thought would be relevant and to deny the ideas and opinions even from entering the metaphorical market in the first place. You're darn right I'll stand against the silencers- particularly if the interviewee in question is one of our own: a TL vet.
There are hundreds of interviews on TL that I do not care about. I do not go out of my way to post in each of them on how TL should not have a thread devoted to that individual. I just do not read it if I think it is irrelevant.
On November 07 2013 10:43 Salient wrote: The topic is supposed to be women in gaming. Anna was no doubt iinterviewed on this topic because she is a female who works for a gaming team. That's sensible to an extent. But ultimately her experience is limited to being a staff worker. Like someone who works in the Yankee clubhouse. Sure that person works for the Yankees, but she/he isn't a Yankee. I would prefer the insight of an actual player who happens to be female regarding women in gaming.
Do not be obtuse and foolish about this. Would you be upset if TL interviewed Bumblebee? Enough to post multiple times in the thread? There is not a quota on interviews and people can interview who they please. If no-one cares, then the thread sinks like a rock, has no views, and has no comments. If people view and comment, then clearly it was an interview the community wanted.
Let the free-market of forums take over. We don't need a council of upset forum posters arbitrating who can and cannot be interviewed.
I apologize for upsetting anyone, and for what it's worth I think the interview is very good. I was just trying to give constructive feedback so maybe the interviewer would consider doing a follow up with a female professional gamer.
He says: "Let the free-market of forums take over" and yet this is a grotesque contradiction to the reality of the situation. Every opinion that is not positive or supportive is shut down, the posters are either flamed or banned. This hardly is a representation of a Laissez-Faire system where individual liberty and tolerance of all creeds and opinions are paramount.
There is a vast difference between "Everyone's opinion should be heard and evaluated" and "Anna Prosser-Robinson's opinion is weak because she's not a pro-gamer".
If he was critiquing her opinion, that would be another matter entirely. But he's brushing off her perspective because of who she is, with no apparent attention paid to any of the actual content in the interview.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female -- when the topic is women in gaming. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players, so you would have to look elsewhere.
So because she isn't a player the interview isn't worth while? Anna does quite a bit in esports, whether it be behind the scenes with EG or her hosting events. She is more than qualified to talk about women in esports because esports is more than just the people playing the games.
And EG does have a female player. Look up Chocoblanka.
So maybe they should interview Chocoblanka? Why interview a staff worker instead of her?
Trying this post again. This interview is part of a larger series in which I interview people working on the staff side of EG. I respect your point, but I would counter that I never billed this as or intended this as an interview with a professional female gamer. Anna works in eSports and she is as much a part of the scene as any gamer, and as a female, she is not immune from the biases levied against women who work in and follow our industry. Thus, she is more than qualified to talk about this topic.
I would love to do an interview with Choko, though I am by no means an expert on fighting games. Her experience might also be different as a Japanese woman, where gender is constructed very, very differently. As I mentioned in another post, I'd love to do a roundtable style interview with a number of female figures in gaming, including gamers themselves.
On November 07 2013 10:17 Jermman wrote: Literally who? Why hasnt EG disbanded yet, none of their players post consistent results. I really wish the world would stop pushing the whole "MUH ESPORTS" thing, and we could have a smaller dedicated community of players, who have actual jobs and lives outside of starcraft. The game as a whole would be far more enjoyable, and the community far less fractured, if turbonerds stopped revolving their entire lives around it.
what.
really cool interview, looking forward to the rest of the series
I would need to see all of the aforementioned and allegedly inappropriate pics to form my own opinion. As it stands, e-sports would not be e-sports without Anna. To support that claim, I only need one word: horses.
Hi Sunfish! First off thank you for contributing to eSports by writing articles on it. I think there are many facets of eSports, and the business/creative aspects should also be celebrated, so it's great that you wrote this.
To people of the community who wants to slam Anna and Sunfish:
Regardless of opinion, I do believe that any minority working dispel stereotypes is a brave thing. In this case, Anna has worked very hard in eSports, and we should give credit where credit is due. What difference does it make if she is not a progamer? She still works in the scene, lives in a house full of boys and appears at almost every eSports event in NA. I think she qualifies for an opinion of the eSports scene.
If it comes to newsworthiness, well, that's a matter of opinion and spin. There will be plenty of people of deserve to be interviewed, but who gets to be interviewed will be determined by the writer. It's not a democracy when it comes to writing. Cool to suggest, not cool to be overly critical. Anyway, when do hot-blooded heterosexual males complain about well-dressed girls? It's like we're back in elementary school.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players . . . although others do.
What does listening/reading to the interview have to do with his opinion about the affiliation of a female to gaming and her validity to speak about the subject?
Edit: Of course she has more inside experience than 99.9% of men and women that read this, but that is beside the point. This interview is about female gamers. She is not a female gamer.
Yes she is. She's just not a female professional gamer. Professional gamers aren't the only people in esports either.
Isn't your pitchfork better suited to move dirt than to defend random girl who plays games?
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players . . . although others do.
What does listening/reading to the interview have to do with his opinion about the affiliation of a female to gaming and her validity to speak about the subject?
Edit: Of course she has more inside experience than 99.9% of men and women that read this, but that is beside the point. This interview is about female gamers. She is not a female gamer.
Yes she is. She's just not a female professional gamer. Professional gamers aren't the only people in esports either.
Isn't your pitchfork better suited to move dirt than to defend random girl who plays games?
One. Fantastic post Two. No pitchfork. Three. I'm not even defending Anna. I'm defending the journalist and his interview choice. Four. Hardly a random girl.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
I recommend you read the rest of the interview. She talks about exactly that perception and what her actual work involves.
I'd love to speak with a female progamer. If there's enough interest, I'm hoping to someday moderate a discussion between women in eSports (a player, a host, a behind the scenes type, a developer, w/e). That will have to wait a while though. I honestly don't think our community can handle that discussion yet.
I just think an interview with a female professional gamer would be infinitely more interesting than an interview with a non-gaming employee of EG who happens to be female. Of course, EG is not a team that has female players . . . although others do.
What does listening/reading to the interview have to do with his opinion about the affiliation of a female to gaming and her validity to speak about the subject?
Edit: Of course she has more inside experience than 99.9% of men and women that read this, but that is beside the point. This interview is about female gamers. She is not a female gamer.
Yes she is. She's just not a female professional gamer. Professional gamers aren't the only people in esports either.
Isn't your pitchfork better suited to move dirt than to defend random girl who plays games?
One. Fantastic post Two. No pitchfork. Three. I'm not even defending Anna. I'm defending the journalist and his interview choice. Four. Hardly a random girl.
So you've gone full nerd for absolutely no reason. K.
Let people wear what they want to wear. Who cares if some people have issues getting over the fact that there is a girl on the interwebz or playing a game (issues as in can't contain themselves at the site of something like this or issues as in upset that they get attention for being female and wearing different clothes.) The more women that get involved in these events the less attention it'll draw until all that remains is the love of the game. Yes, right now women get attention because, lets face it, most men like women so therefor men pay attention to women. Most of the community is male so most of the community will pay attention to women. When the split is closer to 50/50 men/women then only half the community will pay attention to women and half the community will pay attention to men (with the exception of homosexuals/bisexuals who will pay attention to whoever they prefer.)
Best thing you can do, treat people like people and move on with your life. Don't make a big deal about people doing what people do.
I didn't realize people would complain about cocktail dresses, lol. It is clothing for females. I recommend checking out what the German Chancellor wears. + Show Spoiler +
On November 07 2013 21:26 nimbim wrote: Good interview, thanks.
I didn't realize people would complain about cocktail dresses, lol. It is clothing for females. I recommend checking out what the German Chancellor wears. + Show Spoiler +
That could blind someone. What's up with the Germans, anyway? If you ever go to a resort, you can be sure that the fattest, oldest, most naked people will be old Krauts or maybe Brits. We Americans get a lot of grief for being obese, but at least we don't show it off like we're proud of it. :p
On November 07 2013 21:26 nimbim wrote: Good interview, thanks.
I didn't realize people would complain about cocktail dresses, lol. It is clothing for females. I recommend checking out what the German Chancellor wears. + Show Spoiler +
That could blind someone. What's up with the Germans, anyway? If you ever go to a resort, you can be sure that the fattest, oldest, most naked people will be old Krauts or maybe Brits. We Americans get a lot of grief for being obese, but at least we don't show it off like we're proud of it. :p
Not sure if I can speak for all Germans, but for me a resort is something that exist for old people in the first place. If more German people think like that, then it's no wonder why the German people in a resort are of much higher average age.
I've got no idea why any woman would willingly choose to get involved with the basketcase of misogyny that is ESPORTS but it's always a pleasure to hear from Mrs Prosser-Robinson. Besides she seems a damn sight smarter than most of her critics.
Anna, I don't know if you will read these comments, but I have a profound respect for you and your ability to both do your job and not sink in one way or another to the level of the ignorant, often-vitriolic feedback the Internet and gaming community gives women. Speaking for myself, I'm glad that EG and the industry in general has people like you and Seltzer (among others) who are unashamedly very feminine and very committed to the community. Kudos all around.
And to the OP: great interview, a very nice read. Thank you for posting.
On November 07 2013 09:38 Plansix wrote: It is an infuriating behavior that is prevalent across all of gaming and everyone tries to justify it by saying that there are "some girls that get involved with gaming for attention." Because that is somehow justification for being a dick.
I'm not disagreeing with the 'being a dick' part, but I happened to be chatting with my niece the other weekend and 'girls who get involved with gaming for attention', or 'gamer groupies' as she put it, is a real (and for her, enormously irritating) thing.
Girls at her school will talk about this or that big new release, but when she joins in it's soon clear they're bluffing, and either don't have the game or haven't played it. It's also apparent, when one reads between the lines of social media chatter about who did what and where with whom each evening or weekend, that most don't spend any significant time playing games. And it absolutely is all in order to get attention from boys, because 'gamer girl' is the in-thing to be.
On a personal note this is vexing because I appear to have been born twenty years too early, but moving on:
The simple truth - as I see it, anyway - is that girls and boys have always played separately. When a boy plays a game (particularly anything competitive or with a high score element) a significant part of the pay-off is real or imagined standing within a real or imagined group. And social standing for boys is related to perceived mating rights. Hitting GM may not actually get you laid, but as far as your hind-brain is concerned, it means you're the kind of guy who gets laid.
All this gets thrown into complete disarray when a girl steps up to the plate. Unless she's there to play along, to simper and demonstrate how bad she is, her presence is a direct challenge to that subconscious narrative. "You beat that guy? So what: I beat him. I am a girl and your achievements do not impress me. What else you got?"
Personally I can't think of a single game or sport where men play at a lower level than women - and I don't think that's because men are better at everything. I think it's because men won't compete, even with each other, in an event where women have a natural advantage. It's like entering a 'who's got the smallest dick' contest.
Obviously this is a generalisation; it won't be true of everyone to the same extent. But it's true enough of enough boys to make gaming a culture that's very uncomfortable with girls participating, especially since boys aren't necessarily at a natural advantage in that arena.
I lol'd. Either way I feel like we should just let female gamers be female gamers and treat them like we'd treat any male gamer (though that'll never happen).
On November 07 2013 09:43 LongShot27 wrote: I don't really care about girls in gaming or hosting or whatever, gender is irrelevant, but saying the equivalent of a suit is a cocktail dress is just flat out dumb, the equivalent is a full dress not a miniskirt
you misread her answer.
she's saying the female equivalent of the MALE co-hosts casual (semi-formal) wear (t-shirts, blazers, jeans/pants) is a cocktail dress, which is probably true. she didn't say a suit = cocktail dress. reading comprehension.
On November 07 2013 09:43 LongShot27 wrote: I don't really care about girls in gaming or hosting or whatever, gender is irrelevant, but saying the equivalent of a suit is a cocktail dress is just flat out dumb, the equivalent is a full dress not a miniskirt
I mean a "full dress" implies a formality that would pair with a tuxedo. Women have a lot more liberty is getting away with things like skirts and cocktail dresses etc. to go along with professional wear, especially in the business world.
However, just like in the professional world, there is a sort of imaginary "decency line" tied to just how short that skirt or dress is.
Whoah, whoah, whoah.
Tuxedo =/= suit. To find the equivalent of a tuxedo, you'd have to wear a ball gown (and you don't want to wear one of those, they're a BITCH to get on).
Suits can be quite casual. I have a few hanging up in my closet which are widely considered to be for semi-formal wear, nothing more. A cocktail dress is actually a very good equivalent for a normal suit, because they are considered semi-formal. Cocktail dresses are not mini-skirts, they typically reach down just above the knee or even to the ankle, and are not mini-skirts at all.
With so many idiots trying to impose dress rules on women to make them look less slutty, it's incredible the amount of them that don't even understand what women's clothes are like. I'm not implying that you're one of them, but men like that are quite common.
I've never seen a pant suit on any woman in a semi-formal situation. Moreover, imagine how gross it would be if all the women at eSports tournaments started wearing pantsuits. Blech.
If you don't believe me, take a look at this wikipedia page (emphasis on "semi-formal" and the ankle length comment )
On November 07 2013 09:43 LongShot27 wrote: I don't really care about girls in gaming or hosting or whatever, gender is irrelevant, but saying the equivalent of a suit is a cocktail dress is just flat out dumb, the equivalent is a full dress not a miniskirt
A cocktail dress and a miniskirt are not the same thing
I think I remember that dress. I think it was red with diamonds and shit to make it all sparkly. Basically people thought she was trying to hog the spotlight. Women have worn dresses before when they host without it being a big deal it was just that occasion.
Also im glad that Anna does behind the scenes stuff now because she wasnt a very good host. Well, to be fair I only like Redeye, the Korean guy and Day9 when he isnt being too corny.
Fascinating debate about arbitrary fashion(fuck I hate that word/concept) going on here. In order to avoid further controversy, I propose a dress code for Esports events, full body industrial fatigues with combat boots. Except for Apollo who has to wear a pink pyjamas.
I don't really like the whole idea of putting good looking women up there in skimpy clothing as a marketing tool, I just find it to be a source of irritation, but I clearly understand why it's being done. The show is being marketed to a crowd of 15-30 year old mostly male audience, the math is fairly straightforward.
On November 08 2013 02:17 Bowzar wrote: I think I remember that dress. I think it was red with diamonds and shit to make it all sparkly. Basically people thought she was trying to hog the spotlight. Women have worn dresses before when they host without it being a big deal it was just that occasion.
Also im glad that Anna does behind the scenes stuff now because she wasnt a very good host. Well, to be fair I only like Redeye, the Korean guy and Day9 when he isnt being too corny.
I'm sorry, people had an issue with a sparkly red dress that IPL picked for them to wear? Because that is beyond stupid. I didn't know our community was so ADD that shiny objects on a woman's dress distracted them and made them unable to listen to interviews. I would understand she went full Mylie Cyrus, but wearing a sparkly red dress is not something we need to be debating.
On November 08 2013 02:17 Bowzar wrote: I think I remember that dress. I think it was red with diamonds and shit to make it all sparkly. Basically people thought she was trying to hog the spotlight. Women have worn dresses before when they host without it being a big deal it was just that occasion.
Also im glad that Anna does behind the scenes stuff now because she wasnt a very good host. Well, to be fair I only like Redeye, the Korean guy and Day9 when he isnt being too corny.
I'm sorry, people had an issue with a sparkly red dress that IPL picked for them to wear? Because that is beyond stupid. I didn't know our community was so ADD that shiny objects on a woman's dress distracted them and made them unable to listen to interviews. I would understand she went full Mylie Cyrus, but wearing a sparkly red dress is not something we need to be debating.
Youre making it sound like there was an uproear. A couple of guys on reddit thought they were trying to hog the spotlight from the players, other people argued against them and the thread got big because of the whole womens role in esports debate. Sponsors didnt get contacted, no one had to apologize and no one got fired. The blonde chick wore a dress again at WCS EU, no one cared. End of story.
I'm so disappointed in how this entire thing has been handled.
Sjokz is the perfect role model for excellence.
It was a genius move to try and make Smix the "SC2 Sjokz" but terribly mishandled by ESL and in general too much pressure was put on her from the start. Sjokz had a chance to grow from the comfort of the small studio environment, Smix was expected to instantly be at Iron Squid level.
Disappointed in Anna for not recognizing female hosting in eSports done right when there's an active example of it out there already.
On November 08 2013 02:17 Bowzar wrote: I think I remember that dress. I think it was red with diamonds and shit to make it all sparkly. Basically people thought she was trying to hog the spotlight. Women have worn dresses before when they host without it being a big deal it was just that occasion.
Also im glad that Anna does behind the scenes stuff now because she wasnt a very good host. Well, to be fair I only like Redeye, the Korean guy and Day9 when he isnt being too corny.
I'm sorry, people had an issue with a sparkly red dress that IPL picked for them to wear? Because that is beyond stupid. I didn't know our community was so ADD that shiny objects on a woman's dress distracted them and made them unable to listen to interviews. I would understand she went full Mylie Cyrus, but wearing a sparkly red dress is not something we need to be debating.
Not to mention the fact that they are told what to wear by the organizers...
I lol'd. Either way I feel like we should just let female gamers be female gamers and treat them like we'd treat any male gamer (though that'll never happen).
I find weird he don't have any steelseries promo pics of a shirtless or tank top / muscle shirt Incontrol would be a "10/10 will buy steelseries gear", and I'm not even homo.
I'm so disappointed in how this entire thing has been handled.
Sjokz is the perfect role model for excellence.
It was a genius move to try and make Smix the "SC2 Sjokz" but terribly mishandled by ESL and in general too much pressure was put on her from the start. Sjokz had a chance to grow from the comfort of the small studio environment, Smix was expected to instantly be at Iron Squid level.
Disappointed in Anna for not recognizing female hosting in eSports done right when there's an active example of it out there already.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I'm so disappointed in how this entire thing has been handled.
Sjokz is the perfect role model for excellence.
It was a genius move to try and make Smix the "SC2 Sjokz" but terribly mishandled by ESL and in general too much pressure was put on her from the start. Sjokz had a chance to grow from the comfort of the small studio environment, Smix was expected to instantly be at Iron Squid level.
Disappointed in Anna for not recognizing female hosting in eSports done right when there's an active example of it out there already.
Is this guy serious??
Serious enough to make a dumb post about an interview that never went close to the topic he is disappointed Anna missed. But this is a thread about women in Esports, to the quality of dumb posts is going to be through the roof.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
Ok fine, retract my "disappointed in Anna" statement, obviously the interview doesn't go close enough to it to warrant my comment.
I am however amazed at how this is a topic of discussion at all when "hosting done right" is already in play by Riot.
I'm sure Anna would make a great host of WCG Ultimate Gamer or a similar show, but as far as eSports hosting goes she's always felt like an outsider. She seems more passionate about gaming than eSports.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
What bothers you about the word patriarchy? Does the use of the word patriarchy in discussions about a male dominated hobby bother you? Does the idea that a patriarchy might exits or that men have to deal with 10000% less creepy sexism than women upset you? Or do you just dislike the letters in patriarchy? After all, patriarchy is just a word.
Any thread on TL about women and gaming will show you how far the community still has to go. It's so perplexing because I think just about any guy would be happy if more girls got involved in the gaming scene, especially esports, but yet when they do they do the community scares them away.
I enjoyed the interview. Much respect for Anna and what she does.
On November 08 2013 03:20 JimSocks wrote: nothing wrong with being a manager. but can we get some pro gamer girls?
It's not exactly a commodity we can manufacture.
Also as a side not because I'm too lazy to make more posts, it annoys the fuck out of me when people say stuff like "we need more female casters and players" because it would make the community more diverse or some trite shit like that. No we don't, we need more good casters(as in really need) and more good players(we're pretty set on this end). I don't care about someone's genitalia if they can't perform.
People mention Scarlett all the time as if her gender identity had some major impact on her popularity, newsflash, if she was getting stomped out in the Ro32 in challenger league every tournament, no one would give two shits about her. She is one of two non koreans who can regularly compete with and even beat high level koreans, that's the key thing here. We HAVE female pro gamers, Maddelisk, Kaitlyn are the ones I can name just off the top of my head, and how much buzz do they generate? Zero, because they have not produced any kind of results yet. This is a good thing.
What you are really saying is that we need pro gamer girls who are Blizzcon material, but why is that the case? Asking for more female pro gamers just for the sake of some weird, artificial gender balance in the pro scene is basically asking for mascots.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
On November 08 2013 03:20 JimSocks wrote: nothing wrong with being a manager. but can we get some pro gamer girls?
It's not exactly a commodity we can manufacture.
Also as a side not because I'm too lazy to make more posts, it annoys the fuck out of me when people say stuff like "we need more female casters and players" because it would make the community more diverse or some trite shit like that. No we don't, we need more good casters(as in really need) and more good players(we're pretty set on this end). I don't care about someone's genitalia if they can't perform.
People mention Scarlett all the time as if her gender identity had some major impact on her popularity, newsflash, if she was getting stomped out in the Ro32 in challenger league every tournament, no one would give two shits about her. She is one of two non koreans who can regularly compete with and even beat high level koreans, that's the key thing here. We HAVE female pro gamers, Maddelisk, Kaitlyn are the one's I can name just off the top of my head, and how much buzz do they generate? Zero, because they have not produced any kind of results yet. This is a good thing.
What you are really saying is that we need pro gamer girls who are Blizzcon material, but why is that the case? Asking for more female pro gamers just for the sake of some weird, artificial gender balance in the pro scene is basically asking for mascots.
Scarlett is actually a good example of the problem--being that many people blame her genetalia for her wins and not her talent.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
What bothers you about the word patriarchy? Does the use of the word patriarchy in discussions about a male dominated hobby bother you? Does the idea that a patriarchy might exits or that men have to deal with 10000% less creepy sexism than women upset you? Or do you just dislike the letters in patriarchy? After all, patriarchy is just a word.
baiting me this hard, you sure seem to grasp for attention.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
What bothers you about the word patriarchy? Does the use of the word patriarchy in discussions about a male dominated hobby bother you? Does the idea that a patriarchy might exits or that men have to deal with 10000% less creepy sexism than women upset you? Or do you just dislike the letters in patriarchy? After all, patriarchy is just a word.
baiting me this hard, you sure seem to grasp for attention.
You say "whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe"
He's asking you why you're cringing at a word.
How is that baiting? Its just a word that somehow offends you.
On November 08 2013 03:20 JimSocks wrote: nothing wrong with being a manager. but can we get some pro gamer girls?
It's not exactly a commodity we can manufacture.
Also as a side not because I'm too lazy to make more posts, it annoys the fuck out of me when people say stuff like "we need more female casters and players" because it would make the community more diverse or some trite shit like that. No we don't, we need more good casters(as in really need) and more good players(we're pretty set on this end). I don't care about someone's genitalia if they can't perform.
People mention Scarlett all the time as if her gender identity had some major impact on her popularity, newsflash, if she was getting stomped out in the Ro32 in challenger league every tournament, no one would give two shits about her. She is one of two non koreans who can regularly compete with and even beat high level koreans, that's the key thing here. We HAVE female pro gamers, Maddelisk, Kaitlyn are the one's I can name just off the top of my head, and how much buzz do they generate? Zero, because they have not produced any kind of results yet. This is a good thing.
What you are really saying is that we need pro gamer girls who are Blizzcon material, but why is that the case? Asking for more female pro gamers just for the sake of some weird, artificial gender balance in the pro scene is basically asking for mascots.
Scarlett is actually a good example of the problem--being that many people blame her genetalia for her wins and not her talent.
I don't quite understand this, blaming her genitalia? How would that affect anything in game at all? Is it insinuated that she is cheating somehow? I mean, winning is winning right? Or maybe that her (male) opponents are going easy on her somehow?
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
Can you provide an example of each of those players listed? I'm not really following your argument here.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
On November 08 2013 03:20 JimSocks wrote: nothing wrong with being a manager. but can we get some pro gamer girls?
It's not exactly a commodity we can manufacture.
Also as a side not because I'm too lazy to make more posts, it annoys the fuck out of me when people say stuff like "we need more female casters and players" because it would make the community more diverse or some trite shit like that. No we don't, we need more good casters(as in really need) and more good players(we're pretty set on this end). I don't care about someone's genitalia if they can't perform.
People mention Scarlett all the time as if her gender identity had some major impact on her popularity, newsflash, if she was getting stomped out in the Ro32 in challenger league every tournament, no one would give two shits about her. She is one of two non koreans who can regularly compete with and even beat high level koreans, that's the key thing here. We HAVE female pro gamers, Maddelisk, Kaitlyn are the one's I can name just off the top of my head, and how much buzz do they generate? Zero, because they have not produced any kind of results yet. This is a good thing.
What you are really saying is that we need pro gamer girls who are Blizzcon material, but why is that the case? Asking for more female pro gamers just for the sake of some weird, artificial gender balance in the pro scene is basically asking for mascots.
Scarlett is actually a good example of the problem--being that many people blame her genetalia for her wins and not her talent.
What? Are there seriously people going "He has a penis, therefore he is good at starcraft"or the other way around "She has a vagina, therefore she must be good at starcraft"? I've never heard ANYTHING like that and frankly if I would, I would eat my own face because this is just stupidly retarded.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
On November 07 2013 09:43 LongShot27 wrote: I don't really care about girls in gaming or hosting or whatever, gender is irrelevant, but saying the equivalent of a suit is a cocktail dress is just flat out dumb, the equivalent is a full dress not a miniskirt
I mean a "full dress" implies a formality that would pair with a tuxedo. Women have a lot more liberty is getting away with things like skirts and cocktail dresses etc. to go along with professional wear, especially in the business world.
However, just like in the professional world, there is a sort of imaginary "decency line" tied to just how short that skirt or dress is.
Whoah, whoah, whoah.
Tuxedo =/= suit. To find the equivalent of a tuxedo, you'd have to wear a ball gown (and you don't want to wear one of those, they're a BITCH to get on).
Suits can be quite casual. I have a few hanging up in my closet which are widely considered to be for semi-formal wear, nothing more. A cocktail dress is actually a very good equivalent for a normal suit, because they are considered semi-formal. Cocktail dresses are not mini-skirts, they typically reach down just above the knee or even to the ankle, and are not mini-skirts at all.
With so many idiots trying to impose dress rules on women to make them look less slutty, it's incredible the amount of them that don't even understand what women's clothes are like. I'm not implying that you're one of them, but men like that are quite common.
I've never seen a pant suit on any woman in a semi-formal situation. Moreover, imagine how gross it would be if all the women at eSports tournaments started wearing pantsuits. Blech.
If you don't believe me, take a look at this wikipedia page (emphasis on "semi-formal" and the ankle length comment )
Bro, I appreciate your post and that is because you completely agreed with me. I dunno if you misunderstood what I wrote but we essentially made the same argument.
I definitely don't consider myself a fashion or style expert, but I have a lot of experience in business situations that call for dress ranging from casual all the way to tuxedo formal and that is where my perspective came from.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
Scarlett.
You mean the player who, whenever she wins something, has haters come out of the woodwork calling her a man/he.
Her successes are constantly being attributed to the fact that she was once a male.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
Can you provide an example of each of those players listed? I'm not really following your argument here.
How they act is masculine. There is a reason that you don't describe what they do as feminine.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
What bothers you about the word patriarchy? Does the use of the word patriarchy in discussions about a male dominated hobby bother you? Does the idea that a patriarchy might exits or that men have to deal with 10000% less creepy sexism than women upset you? Or do you just dislike the letters in patriarchy? After all, patriarchy is just a word.
The problem with using the word "Patriarchy" is that it's meaning has been so warped.
pa·tri·ar·chy (ptr-ärk) n. pl. pa·tri·ar·chies In both senses also called patriarchate. 1. A social system in which the father is the head of the family and men have authority over women and children.
The key phrase here is "men have authority over women". As in, whatever the man says, goes. Very few modern day examples still exist including the most obvious, Saudi Arabia. It's definition is also very strongly related to family structure.
I don't mean to turn this into a feminist discussion or anything like that, but I agree the term patriarchy is cringe worthy when you use it as a hyperbole like you did (even though creepy sexism admittedly exists). It would only be true if you could go to a Lan tournament or something and actually give orders to women such as not allowing them to play or forcing them to act some way and if they defied the order, they would be punished because they are female.
Women in e-sports have the freedom to do as they please, and although they do 100% face more challenges than men including all the ogling mongoloids and one of the thickest glass ceilings I can think of, no one is telling them they cant participate because they are a woman. These kind of exaggerations about MEN in e-sports only demonizes them and potentially leads to even more resentment for women trying to participate.
tl;dr sexism =/= patriarchy so don't use it that way.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Youre using the word professional very loosely. Anna is actually involved in esports professionally(and not getting a replacement keyboard once a year), in fact considering her position is with EG, she's MC of "house moms."
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
On November 07 2013 08:38 Salient wrote: Wouldn't it be better to interview a woman who is an actual professional gamer instead of just team-house mom? Maybe interview someone like QueenE instead?
Youre using the word professional very loosely. Anna is actually involved in esports professionally(and not getting a replacement keyboard once a year), in fact considering her position is with EG, she's MC of "house moms."
Exactly, Artosis isn't a progamer(he doesn't compete in tournaments at a pro level, and his streams are hardly his main job), yet he is working in esports.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
On November 08 2013 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
On November 08 2013 03:07 JP Dayne wrote: Anna's argument makes no sense
No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity. He has to be good or entertaining.
Tell me a male SC2 figure that has become popular by being feminine. Part of patriarchy is seeing men/women act masculine and thinking that that is "normal" while seeing a man/woman acting feminine as being outside of normal.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
Some societies. And particular subsets of societies have much further to go than others. Case in point - gaming. The implicit rights and attitudes towards women are behind what the norm has become in more generalized, broader societies such as countries and federations (think EU, etc.).
If you were to try and break down some of the more prevalent attitudes in gaming in general, I think you'd find some more racism/sexism/prejudice than, say, an analysis of business and economic practices in the EU. The anonymity of the Internet has done quite a bit of harm to some individuals' ability to interact appropriately with others.
I think any big community has its share of stupid people and people who will see the forest for the trees. I'm guessing that big corporations and real sports companies are taking all of this into account so they ignore that kind of stuff and just give people content and let them pick it apart to the bone.
My hypothetical question is, if SC2 is that popular where most of the people ACTUALLY involved in the industry are OK with just making content and letting the forums rip it apart and misconstrue it, will it be sustainable since the community involvement has been such a big part of SC2s development (as a scene)
It's great that this interview explicitly brought up issues of gender in the sc2 community, not only the good, but also the challenges.
It would be amazing if sc2 were the first large-scale, competitive game that had a real, prolonged, and constructive discussion about gender and sexuality issues. It would likely be a huge boon to the popularity of the game among women too...
edit: I know attracting more female sc2 players was one of Day9's big goals about a year ago... I wonder where he is on that.
I have no idea what you're talking about, or replying me for. but whenever I read "patriarchy" I cringe, please don't type that anymore.
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
On November 08 2013 03:27 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
You asked "what male sc2 figure has to show his masculinity" and I replied that almost no male sc2 figure has gotten popular for being feminine (save for Scarlett, and only on the technicality that she is a woman first and male 2nd). Why? Because they are showing their masculinity. To think that men showing their masculinity is them being "good and entertaining" IS THE PROBLEM BEING PRESENTED.
So stop dodging the question.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
Okay I love the womens studies 101 thing as much as any academic but seriously, it is way more sociologically complex than that.
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
I just want to say that in my perspective looking at Facebook has not been "technologically hip" since like 2009. I would also categorize it much more closely with mindless social interaction than technology, which to me makes more feminine.
Another unrelated point that I pretty much never see brought up in these talks in related to females in other 'real' sports industries. + Show Spoiler +
(don't worry i think e-sports are just as real, it's just for perspective )
Especially American Football which has historically been one of the most macho arenas you can find (ass slapping and group showers notwithstanding).
Those sports have also been one of the most challenging areas for females to participate as casters, pundits, and journalists. There are multiple very public lawsuits about blatant, out-in-the-open sexism including public jabs and comments. Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a homely female field reporter? They all have some very similar physical characteristics and this is not a coincidence.
Although e-sports can seem pretty sexist a lot of the time, when you put it in perspective, it does seem to be on par if not ahead of other more popular sports in terms of accepting female participants.
On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
I just want to say that in my perspective looking at Facebook has not been "technologically hip" since like 2009. I would also categorize it much more closely with mindless social interaction than technology, which to me makes more feminine.
Another unrelated point that I pretty much never see brought up in these talks in related to females in other 'real' sports industries. + Show Spoiler +
(don't worry i think e-sports are just as real, it's just for perspective )
Especially American Football which has historically been one of the most macho arenas you can find (ass slapping and group showers notwithstanding).
Those sports have also been one of the most challenging areas for females to participate as casters, pundits, and journalists. There are multiple very public lawsuits about blatant, out-in-the-open sexism including public jabs and comments. Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a homely female field reporter? They all have some very similar physical characteristics and this is not a coincidence.
Although e-sports can seem pretty sexist a lot of the time, when you put it in perspective, it does seem to be on par if not ahead of other more popular sports in terms of accepting female participants.
I do agree that, relatively speaking, eSports is doing better than physical sports (for the most part), however, one does not say one's country is peaceful just because you're doing better than child soldiers in some african countries. One does not say that one's people are free just because your neighbor is a worse slaver.
Extreme examples, but its to get the point across that the qualitative value of one's morals is best judged on its own merit and not be placed in a relative scale to "worse" examples.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
I just want to say that in my perspective looking at Facebook has not been "technologically hip" since like 2009. I would also categorize it much more closely with mindless social interaction than technology, which to me makes more feminine.
Another unrelated point that I pretty much never see brought up in these talks in related to females in other 'real' sports industries. + Show Spoiler +
(don't worry i think e-sports are just as real, it's just for perspective )
Especially American Football which has historically been one of the most macho arenas you can find (ass slapping and group showers notwithstanding).
Those sports have also been one of the most challenging areas for females to participate as casters, pundits, and journalists. There are multiple very public lawsuits about blatant, out-in-the-open sexism including public jabs and comments. Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a homely female field reporter? They all have some very similar physical characteristics and this is not a coincidence.
Although e-sports can seem pretty sexist a lot of the time, when you put it in perspective, it does seem to be on par if not ahead of other more popular sports in terms of accepting female participants.
I do agree that, relatively speaking, eSports is doing better than physical sports (for the most part), however, one does not say one's country is peaceful just because you're doing better than child soldiers in some african countries. One does not say that one's people are free just because your neighbor is a worse slaver.
Extreme examples, but its to get the point across that the qualitative value of one's morals is best judged on its own merit and not be placed in a relative scale to "worse" examples.
Of course the point isn't that everything is hunky dory so no need to change anything.
Rather, it should be seen as a point of hope and potential for even further improvement.
On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
I just want to say that in my perspective looking at Facebook has not been "technologically hip" since like 2009. I would also categorize it much more closely with mindless social interaction than technology, which to me makes more feminine.
Another unrelated point that I pretty much never see brought up in these talks in related to females in other 'real' sports industries. + Show Spoiler +
(don't worry i think e-sports are just as real, it's just for perspective )
Especially American Football which has historically been one of the most macho arenas you can find (ass slapping and group showers notwithstanding).
Those sports have also been one of the most challenging areas for females to participate as casters, pundits, and journalists. There are multiple very public lawsuits about blatant, out-in-the-open sexism including public jabs and comments. Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a homely female field reporter? They all have some very similar physical characteristics and this is not a coincidence.
Although e-sports can seem pretty sexist a lot of the time, when you put it in perspective, it does seem to be on par if not ahead of other more popular sports in terms of accepting female participants.
I do agree that, relatively speaking, eSports is doing better than physical sports (for the most part), however, one does not say one's country is peaceful just because you're doing better than child soldiers in some african countries. One does not say that one's people are free just because your neighbor is a worse slaver.
Extreme examples, but its to get the point across that the qualitative value of one's morals is best judged on its own merit and not be placed in a relative scale to "worse" examples.
Of course the point isn't that everything is hunky dory so no need to change anything.
Rather, it should be seen as a point of hope and potential for even further improvement.
Of course, hence why I started the paragraph by saying that I agree that esports is better off than physical sports.
My main problem is that western culture is very problematic and, unlike a lot of eastern cultures, pretends that its doing well when it really needs a lot of improvement. Not to say that there aren't worse cultures out there. There are still parts of africa that practices female circumcision, so its not like Western Culture is last place. But there is no equality yet and to pretending that just because we're ahead of the curve that we should feel proud of ourselves is a dangerous place to be. We still need to remain very critical of the flaws in our society.
On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question.
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
Okay I love the womens studies 101 thing as much as any academic but seriously, it is way more sociologically complex than that.
The idea that every act is either masculin or ffeminine is an argument I have problems following. How about brushing your teeth? Is that masculine or feminine? Tying your shoes?
And anyway some of the Korean players are quite feminine. Not to mention rather touchy with each other too. And they are successful. So I have to sat I'm not convinced by your argument that players must be masculine to succeed.
Really? People cared so much about how they were dressed? When did Esports community suddenly become the Taliban to dictate how women should dress?
I just cared about the games. The girls were just typical MCs, no better or worse than any Esports MCs. I mean, we just want the games to start right? The only MC that matters is OBAMA TOSS!
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Because being masculine is the neutral standard?
There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations.
I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said:
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine.
Here are the implied premises from this statement:
1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl.
I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are.
Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine.
There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you.
The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other.
As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society.
Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine.
But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral.
More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role.
Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
Okay I love the womens studies 101 thing as much as any academic but seriously, it is way more sociologically complex than that.
The idea that every act is either masculin or ffeminine is an argument I have problems following. How about brushing your teeth? Is that masculine or feminine? Tying your shoes?
And anyway some of the Korean players are quite feminine. Not to mention rather touchy with each other too. And they are successful. So I have to sat I'm not convinced by your argument that players must be masculine to succeed.
Men are expected to have to tie shoes, especially dress shoes. Women are expected to wear heels and have no shoe strings. Tennis/Running shoes are more connected to being sports shoes (hence their name) and sports is heavily masculine in its milieu.
Desire for cleanliness is usually attributed to the female--masculinity in Western culture leans heavily to a sense of carelessness when it comes to self cleanliness for men.
As for supposedly feminine players, which players and what did they do?
Did they dress feminine? Did they sound feminine? Did they play feminine? Did they enforce female stereotypes?
So far the only one being directly pointed out as Feminine has been Huk most likely because he's short and has no facial hair, otherwise he acts like every other male.
Also, touchiness has nothing to do with femininity. Men are the ones usually attributed to enjoying slapping bums, grabbing shoulders, punching, hi-fiving, head butting, bro-hugging, etc...
Hence why most sports athletes in masculine dominated sports slap each other's asses and emphasize the importance of being proud enough to shower with each other naked.
EPT
She doesn't like video games at all and hates the fact that I play them T.T![[image loading]](http://i1.wp.com/bryanbabich.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/DSC_1185.jpg)
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