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On November 08 2013 06:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 05:47 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 05:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:
[quote]
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post
we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity
in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are. Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine. There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you. The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other. As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society. Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine. But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral. More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role. Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
Okay I love the womens studies 101 thing as much as any academic but seriously, it is way more sociologically complex than that.
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On November 08 2013 06:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 05:47 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 05:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 03:58 JP Dayne wrote:
[quote]
I-I didn't say any of that, dude, you completely misread my post
we don't need to men show mascuinity or femininity, or women to show femininity or masculinity
in esports men and women should be judged if they're good or entertaining
You said, "No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity" This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular. MC Naniwa Huk Idra Destiny etc... Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity. I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question. You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are. Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine. There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you. The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other. As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society. Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine. But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral. More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role. Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised.
I just want to say that in my perspective looking at Facebook has not been "technologically hip" since like 2009. I would also categorize it much more closely with mindless social interaction than technology, which to me makes more feminine.
Another unrelated point that I pretty much never see brought up in these talks in related to females in other 'real' sports industries. + Show Spoiler +(don't worry i think e-sports are just as real, it's just for perspective  )
Those sports have also been one of the most challenging areas for females to participate as casters, pundits, and journalists. There are multiple very public lawsuits about blatant, out-in-the-open sexism including public jabs and comments. Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a homely female field reporter? They all have some very similar physical characteristics and this is not a coincidence.
Although e-sports can seem pretty sexist a lot of the time, when you put it in perspective, it does seem to be on par if not ahead of other more popular sports in terms of accepting female participants.
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On November 08 2013 09:53 bombsauce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 06:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:47 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 05:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC
Naniwa
Huk
Idra
Destiny
etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are. Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine. There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you. The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other. As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society. Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine. But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral. More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role. Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised. I just want to say that in my perspective looking at Facebook has not been "technologically hip" since like 2009. I would also categorize it much more closely with mindless social interaction than technology, which to me makes more feminine. Another unrelated point that I pretty much never see brought up in these talks in related to females in other 'real' sports industries. + Show Spoiler +(don't worry i think e-sports are just as real, it's just for perspective ) Especially American Football which has historically been one of the most macho arenas you can find (ass slapping and group showers notwithstanding). Those sports have also been one of the most challenging areas for females to participate as casters, pundits, and journalists. There are multiple very public lawsuits about blatant, out-in-the-open sexism including public jabs and comments. Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a homely female field reporter? They all have some very similar physical characteristics and this is not a coincidence. Although e-sports can seem pretty sexist a lot of the time, when you put it in perspective, it does seem to be on par if not ahead of other more popular sports in terms of accepting female participants.
I do agree that, relatively speaking, eSports is doing better than physical sports (for the most part), however, one does not say one's country is peaceful just because you're doing better than child soldiers in some african countries. One does not say that one's people are free just because your neighbor is a worse slaver.
Extreme examples, but its to get the point across that the qualitative value of one's morals is best judged on its own merit and not be placed in a relative scale to "worse" examples.
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On November 08 2013 09:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 09:53 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 06:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:47 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 05:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:
[quote]
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining
hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea
mc is world champion!!!
destiny is a troll, people find him funny
now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong
either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are. Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine. There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you. The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other. As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society. Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine. But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral. More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role. Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised. I just want to say that in my perspective looking at Facebook has not been "technologically hip" since like 2009. I would also categorize it much more closely with mindless social interaction than technology, which to me makes more feminine. Another unrelated point that I pretty much never see brought up in these talks in related to females in other 'real' sports industries. + Show Spoiler +(don't worry i think e-sports are just as real, it's just for perspective ) Especially American Football which has historically been one of the most macho arenas you can find (ass slapping and group showers notwithstanding). Those sports have also been one of the most challenging areas for females to participate as casters, pundits, and journalists. There are multiple very public lawsuits about blatant, out-in-the-open sexism including public jabs and comments. Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a homely female field reporter? They all have some very similar physical characteristics and this is not a coincidence. Although e-sports can seem pretty sexist a lot of the time, when you put it in perspective, it does seem to be on par if not ahead of other more popular sports in terms of accepting female participants. I do agree that, relatively speaking, eSports is doing better than physical sports (for the most part), however, one does not say one's country is peaceful just because you're doing better than child soldiers in some african countries. One does not say that one's people are free just because your neighbor is a worse slaver. Extreme examples, but its to get the point across that the qualitative value of one's morals is best judged on its own merit and not be placed in a relative scale to "worse" examples.
Of course the point isn't that everything is hunky dory so no need to change anything.
Rather, it should be seen as a point of hope and potential for even further improvement.
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On November 08 2013 10:51 bombsauce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 09:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 09:53 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 06:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:47 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 05:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are. Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine. There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you. The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other. As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society. Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine. But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral. More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role. Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised. I just want to say that in my perspective looking at Facebook has not been "technologically hip" since like 2009. I would also categorize it much more closely with mindless social interaction than technology, which to me makes more feminine. Another unrelated point that I pretty much never see brought up in these talks in related to females in other 'real' sports industries. + Show Spoiler +(don't worry i think e-sports are just as real, it's just for perspective ) Especially American Football which has historically been one of the most macho arenas you can find (ass slapping and group showers notwithstanding). Those sports have also been one of the most challenging areas for females to participate as casters, pundits, and journalists. There are multiple very public lawsuits about blatant, out-in-the-open sexism including public jabs and comments. Not only that, but when was the last time you saw a homely female field reporter? They all have some very similar physical characteristics and this is not a coincidence. Although e-sports can seem pretty sexist a lot of the time, when you put it in perspective, it does seem to be on par if not ahead of other more popular sports in terms of accepting female participants. I do agree that, relatively speaking, eSports is doing better than physical sports (for the most part), however, one does not say one's country is peaceful just because you're doing better than child soldiers in some african countries. One does not say that one's people are free just because your neighbor is a worse slaver. Extreme examples, but its to get the point across that the qualitative value of one's morals is best judged on its own merit and not be placed in a relative scale to "worse" examples. Of course the point isn't that everything is hunky dory so no need to change anything. Rather, it should be seen as a point of hope and potential for even further improvement.
Of course, hence why I started the paragraph by saying that I agree that esports is better off than physical sports.
My main problem is that western culture is very problematic and, unlike a lot of eastern cultures, pretends that its doing well when it really needs a lot of improvement. Not to say that there aren't worse cultures out there. There are still parts of africa that practices female circumcision, so its not like Western Culture is last place. But there is no equality yet and to pretending that just because we're ahead of the curve that we should feel proud of ourselves is a dangerous place to be. We still need to remain very critical of the flaws in our society.
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On November 08 2013 07:46 RESOqub wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 06:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:47 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 05:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:On November 08 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
You said,
"No SC2 figure has to express their masculinity"
This is false, almost all male SC2 players express their masculinity, and because of that they get popular.
MC
Naniwa
Huk
Idra
Destiny
etc...
Many male SC2 figures are popular because of their masculinity.
I then countered by asking what males have gotten popular by being feminine. You dodged the question.
You associate being masculine with being good--hence why you dodged the question. everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea mc is world champion!!! destiny is a troll, people find him funny now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are. Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine. There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you. The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other. As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society. Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine. But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral. More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role. Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised. Okay I love the womens studies 101 thing as much as any academic but seriously, it is way more sociologically complex than that.
The idea that every act is either masculin or ffeminine is an argument I have problems following. How about brushing your teeth? Is that masculine or feminine? Tying your shoes?
And anyway some of the Korean players are quite feminine. Not to mention rather touchy with each other too. And they are successful. So I have to sat I'm not convinced by your argument that players must be masculine to succeed.
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Really? People cared so much about how they were dressed?
When did Esports community suddenly become the Taliban to dictate how women should dress?
I just cared about the games. The girls were just typical MCs, no better or worse than any Esports MCs. I mean, we just want the games to start right? The only MC that matters is OBAMA TOSS! 
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On November 08 2013 11:57 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 07:46 RESOqub wrote:On November 08 2013 06:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:47 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 05:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 05:07 bombsauce wrote:On November 08 2013 04:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:41 Finganforn wrote:On November 08 2013 04:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2013 04:08 JP Dayne wrote:
[quote]
everyone you mentioned is good at this game AND entertaining
hell, Huk is very feminine, and he's won a lot of shit and stayed in korea
mc is world champion!!!
destiny is a troll, people find him funny
now, with idra, I can understand why you think he is masculinitized (?), but if I made the right connection, you'd be so filled and brainwashed with feminist nazi agenda you're confusing masculinity with being aggressive, and I hope to god I'm wrong
either way I'm jumping thread, I hate to argue the obvious Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Because being masculine is the neutral standard? There is no neutral standard. Society's goal is to be accepting of all variations. I'm guessing you don't share this goal with society because you just said: Do they act like girls? No? Then they're acting masculine. Here are the implied premises from this statement: 1.All girls act the same way (feminine I guess) 2.If you don't act like girls, then you act masculine 3. (ext of 2) if you don't act masculine, then you act like a girl. I'll let you be your own judge of how accepting you are. Feminine and masculine are identity traits performed within a context of the societies they are in. Feminine, is given such a term because it is how the female/girl is expected to act. This then creates the dynamic that acting un-female or un-girl is acting masculine. There is no neutral, there is how society sees perceived masculinity acts and the way society perceives femininity acts. How one acts is performative in either rejecting or accepting the societal expectations of your place within it and that performance is perceived by those observing you. The goal is to not judge either action, because they are simply societal constructs and we need to respect those choices. However, we do place qualitative values on these constructs such that we emphasize one as being more normal than the other. As an example, seeing men acting masculine as being perceived as "neutral" as if there is a "neutral" way to act within a society. Sure, arm-wrestling is masculine and shoe shopping is feminine. Watching action movies is masculine and watching romantic comedies is feminine. But what about going to the store to buy toilet paper, or doing your taxes, or posting inane stuff on Facebook? Neutral. More on-topic, of course Anna can host a tournament wearing a dress. Redeye does it wearing a suit. Neither of them do casting, analyzing, or gaming on a high level, they fulfil the same role. Domestic space is very feminine in western culture while technical advancement is seen as masculine. That makes buying toilet paper feminin (hence looked down upon as a chore) while looking at Facebook is being technologically hip (masculine) an hence why it is praised. Okay I love the womens studies 101 thing as much as any academic but seriously, it is way more sociologically complex than that. The idea that every act is either masculin or ffeminine is an argument I have problems following. How about brushing your teeth? Is that masculine or feminine? Tying your shoes? And anyway some of the Korean players are quite feminine. Not to mention rather touchy with each other too. And they are successful. So I have to sat I'm not convinced by your argument that players must be masculine to succeed.
Men are expected to have to tie shoes, especially dress shoes. Women are expected to wear heels and have no shoe strings. Tennis/Running shoes are more connected to being sports shoes (hence their name) and sports is heavily masculine in its milieu.
Desire for cleanliness is usually attributed to the female--masculinity in Western culture leans heavily to a sense of carelessness when it comes to self cleanliness for men.
As for supposedly feminine players, which players and what did they do?
Did they dress feminine?
Did they sound feminine?
Did they play feminine?
Did they enforce female stereotypes?
So far the only one being directly pointed out as Feminine has been Huk most likely because he's short and has no facial hair, otherwise he acts like every other male.
Also, touchiness has nothing to do with femininity. Men are the ones usually attributed to enjoying slapping bums, grabbing shoulders, punching, hi-fiving, head butting, bro-hugging, etc...
Hence why most sports athletes in masculine dominated sports slap each other's asses and emphasize the importance of being proud enough to shower with each other naked.
Its not very hard to see.
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Finally got around to reading the interview. I must say, she is very intelligent. Good read.
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EPT
