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Stop the League of Legends bashing. Temp bans will be handed out from now on. - Page 32. |
On October 13 2013 09:22 IAMPRO wrote:
I'm bashing league of legends
User was temp banned for this post.
Laughed my ass off on this post.
Imagine Prime LoL gets into the World Championship next season and pwn everyone else for a.........
+ Show Spoiler +
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2?  As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept.
So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball?
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On October 13 2013 22:43 DinosaurPoop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:22 IAMPRO wrote:
I'm bashing league of legends
User was temp banned for this post. Laughed my ass off on this post. Imagine Prime LoL gets into the World Championship next season and pwn everyone else for a......... + Show Spoiler +
And if they don't succeed, they should invite the Dino Toss, Stork. It's funny how your username reminds of him.
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On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not.
Just look at select and you'll delete your post.
He was bad in dota2 and went back into SC2.
The skill in dota 2 comes from decision making and team work solely.
Do you really think SC2 players make the best decisions? Don't think so.
And the team work and coordination? Zero.
Mistakes are punished pretty hard in high level LoL and dota 2. Your opponent literally gets stronger from your death making it more likely you or your team will die to them.
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Who cares about LoL vs Dota vs SC 2 in regards to how hard it is. DO we like to watch people play these games? I would say so yes. What we should be talking about is what this means to prime, what this means to MKP. Not a pissing a stupid arguement that LoL is easier than SC 2. The simple fact is, LoL is bigger, more fun for viewers and players than SC 2 is. Not to mention there is more prize money in LoL.
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On October 13 2013 23:59 HeeroFX wrote:
Who cares about LoL vs Dota vs SC 2 in regards to how hard it is. DO we like to watch people play these games? I would say so yes. What we should be talking about is what this means to prime, what this means to MKP. Not a pissing a stupid arguement that LoL is easier than SC 2. The simple fact is, LoL is bigger, more fun for viewers and players than SC 2 is. Not to mention there is more prize money in LoL.
I really dont believe that lol is more fun to watch at all. I think most of the viewers in lol watch for the fanship, not so much for the interesting gameplay and exciting games. Ofc i cant prove this, but the normal streamnumbers (for specific people) back this up i think.
And what does that mean for mkp? i think he wont make it, just like all the others who tried, its too hard to get a team you can perform with, thats really one of the most difficult und important things in teamgames.
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What a childish discussion.
Suppose there is some intrinsic value determining a game's hardness, we could only estimate it compared to a certain basis (a combination of mechanical demand, teamwork and split second decision making, for example). There is no way to tell if that basis is the correct one. The reason this discussion is childish, is because everyone's just disregarding the basis of the one they're talking to. It's about as stupid as the tendency to speak louder when you're talking to someone who can't understand your language. Volume isn't the issue...
Same goed for big. What are looking at when you say big? Playerbase, Prizemoney, Average viewers compared to playerbase? I don't care which one you choose, but once you don't specify that, your talking like (and maybe to) a monkey.
Same goes for fun. Although this is a little bit less straight forward, but the same principles apply.
I wish mkp the best of luck.
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On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball?
Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport.
complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable.
if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker.
Hint hint* theres only one Faker.
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On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker.
faker is overhyped as fuck though..
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On October 14 2013 01:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker. faker is overhyped as fuck though..
Do you even Church of Faker?
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On October 14 2013 01:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker. faker is overhyped as fuck though..
Yes having the biggest champion pool out of any midlaner in the world and also winning mid 90% of the time, definitely overhyped.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker.
But its really hard to argue it takes as much time and effort to be a pro gamer than Starcraft. If you were to start off a complete noob in both games it would probably take a solid year in SC2 to join a professional team, let alone actually being successful - Where as in LoL you could grind out for 4 months and join a pro team and actually start winning pro games and / tourneys, since its a team sport. There are some gameplay aspects of LoL that are"better" than SC2 as is the flipside.
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On October 14 2013 02:12 Thinasy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 01:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker. faker is overhyped as fuck though.. Yes having the biggest champion pool out of any midlaner in the world and also winning mid 90% of the time, definitely overhyped.
Does he really? Or did you just take that out of nowhere.. I dont say faker isnt good, but he isnt the indisputable best midlaner in the world.. He is on the best team in the world, ofc he looks great most of the time.
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On October 14 2013 02:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 02:12 Thinasy wrote:On October 14 2013 01:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker. faker is overhyped as fuck though.. Yes having the biggest champion pool out of any midlaner in the world and also winning mid 90% of the time, definitely overhyped. Does he really? Or did you just take that out of nowhere.. I dont say faker isnt good, but he isnt the indisputable best midlaner in the world.. He is on the best team in the world, ofc he looks great most of the time.
Are you fucking kidding me? I don't think there's a single LoL pro player that doesn't think Faker is the best player at the game at this time.
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On October 14 2013 03:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 02:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 02:12 Thinasy wrote:On October 14 2013 01:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker. faker is overhyped as fuck though.. Yes having the biggest champion pool out of any midlaner in the world and also winning mid 90% of the time, definitely overhyped. Does he really? Or did you just take that out of nowhere.. I dont say faker isnt good, but he isnt the indisputable best midlaner in the world.. He is on the best team in the world, ofc he looks great most of the time. Are you fucking kidding me? I don't think there's a single LoL pro player that doesn't think Faker is the best player at the game at this time.
Oh best player not just best mid, that just got even funnier now^^ Why would anyone say that? Cause he plays on the best team right now? You have literlly nothing to back your bias up, only the stats of his success with sktt1.
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A player is only as good as his contribution to the team. Maybe you can look at his mechanical ability in midlane and make some judgments off that, but it's much harder to tell how much he is supporting his team in other areas. (spotting, team fights, coordination) I think you would need advanced knowledge in order to tell.
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On October 14 2013 03:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 03:08 wei2coolman wrote:On October 14 2013 02:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 02:12 Thinasy wrote:On October 14 2013 01:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker. faker is overhyped as fuck though.. Yes having the biggest champion pool out of any midlaner in the world and also winning mid 90% of the time, definitely overhyped. Does he really? Or did you just take that out of nowhere.. I dont say faker isnt good, but he isnt the indisputable best midlaner in the world.. He is on the best team in the world, ofc he looks great most of the time. Are you fucking kidding me? I don't think there's a single LoL pro player that doesn't think Faker is the best player at the game at this time. Oh best player not just best mid, that just got even funnier now^^ Why would anyone say that? Cause he plays on the best team right now? You have literlly nothing to back your bias up, only the stats of his success with sktt1.
Other than the fact that every team in worlds built team comps meant to counter Faker, especially them trying to bait him to assassins. His real strength now is his ability to draw jungle pressure, allowing impact and piglet easy lanes. Also his team fight threat always makes him draw extreme aggro from enemies, letting piglet go wild on the enemy team without drawing aggro. He doesn't even play position one for his team, so he's not being funneled gold for him to do what he does.
When there are players like Cool, who say they got schooled by Faker, you know Faker is the best.
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On October 14 2013 02:22 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker. I really dont consider Discus a Sport, its a Skill, and even if it was, you are right ANY game is equally the same as it pertains to your opponent, what I am saying is some sports require a greater array of skillsets than others. Throwing discs separately against each other is essentially two players seeing who can make the most freethrows. Why the hell do that when you can actually play Basketball. LoL is a great game since its basically F2P and has a massive player base and more support from the developers than SC2. But its really hard to argue it takes as much time and effort to be a pro gamer than Starcraft. If you were to start off a complete noob in both games it would probably take a solid year in SC2 to join a professional team, let alone actually being successful - Where as in LoL you could grind out for 4 months and join a pro team and actually start winning pro games and / tourneys, since its a team sport. There are some gameplay aspects of LoL that are"better" than SC2 as is the flipside.
Well, when you get some hard data to support that argument instead of pulling arbitrary figures out of your ass then maybe this discussion will be worthwhile.
For the record, if tee ball was a professionally played game on the same level that baseball is, I guarantee you that it would be very difficult to reach the top level in. That is the nature of competition. You have to be better than everyone else, and they're all playing the same game you are. The difficulty involved in becoming a professional baseball player has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game itself, it comes from the level of competition involved in the industry.
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On October 14 2013 03:25 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 03:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 03:08 wei2coolman wrote:On October 14 2013 02:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 02:12 Thinasy wrote:On October 14 2013 01:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 01:48 wei2coolman wrote:On October 13 2013 23:16 Velouria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2013 10:28 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless. At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept. So playing Tee Ball is just as hard and respectable as playing Major League Baseball? Discus is just tossing a disc as far as possible, it's an olympic sport. complexity has nothing to do with competitiveness, so long as it's obvious there are differences in skills that are observable. if LoL was so easy to play, every single top tier pro would be as good as Faker. Hint hint* theres only one Faker. faker is overhyped as fuck though.. Yes having the biggest champion pool out of any midlaner in the world and also winning mid 90% of the time, definitely overhyped. Does he really? Or did you just take that out of nowhere.. I dont say faker isnt good, but he isnt the indisputable best midlaner in the world.. He is on the best team in the world, ofc he looks great most of the time. Are you fucking kidding me? I don't think there's a single LoL pro player that doesn't think Faker is the best player at the game at this time. Oh best player not just best mid, that just got even funnier now^^ Why would anyone say that? Cause he plays on the best team right now? You have literlly nothing to back your bias up, only the stats of his success with sktt1. Other than the fact that every team in worlds built team comps meant to counter Faker, especially them trying to bait him to assassins. His real strength now is his ability to draw jungle pressure, allowing impact and piglet easy lanes. Also his team fight threat always makes him draw extreme aggro from enemies, letting piglet go wild on the enemy team without drawing aggro. He doesn't even play position one for his team, so he's not being funneled gold for him to do what he does. When there are players like Cool, who say they got schooled by Faker, you know Faker is the best.
Nope. They are building comps to counter the Assassin mid meta. Same with xPeke, Alexich etc. etc. The current meta suits Faker really well and I'm really curious to see how will he do when Riot bring the nerf hammer. Will he do well on more conventional mid champs ? We have to wait and see. Also big part of Faker's success is Bengi who is always there to win him the lane or to save his ass.
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EPT
