|
Stop the League of Legends bashing. Temp bans will be handed out from now on. - Page 32. |
I'm gonna miss his never-give-up attitude a.k.a complete opposite of idra style 
|
On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2?
As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play.
In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS.
I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not.
|
As a skilled player you can make so much more money with way less effort in league of legends than in sc2. It's a fact.
Good for him, good luck in the future.
|
On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not.
I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games.
There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against.
I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning.
|
On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning.
Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison.
|
On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on. One must avoid making bias comparison.
In my opinion the reason why I dont like sc2 is because of this poker strategy. Cheese are too good in that game, and even pro-player can lose to random thing. (like sjow vs stardust).
In lol if you have better mechanic and good comunication you should alway win.
|
On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning.
No its not, there are limitations of how good you can become on doing task X in any game. It doesnt matter how competitive the scene is, it isnt about how hard is it TO WIN, its about how hard is it to play. these two things are different, so for example how hard is it to "nearly master" task X compared to task Y. There isnt infinitive room to become better in every single aspect of a game.
|
On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison.
Both SC2 and LoL are highly competitive games. In SC2, the entirety of the skillcap rests on the individual player. In LoL, the majority of the skillcap rests on the team making decisions as a unit. They're just different games. Can MKP out-micro and out-multitask any current LoL or DOTA2 pro player? Probably. Can he contribute as a team player to a 5v5 team in a constantly changing environment, where his individual micro might count for very little if he isn't communicating and assisting his teammates? That remains to be seen.
|
why are people so damn concerned about which game is harder or easier to play? You think in either sc or LoL you are playing vs bots? No, so the difficulty aspect goes out of the window. You can argue "mechanics" being way harder in sc2, but is that even relevant in the larger picture? (enjoyment of players and spectators). Get off your high horses and learn to have some fun
|
On October 13 2013 09:13 biology]major wrote:
why are people so damn concerned about which game is harder or easier to play? You think in either sc or LoL you are playing vs bots? No, so the difficulty aspect goes out of the window. You can argue "mechanics" being way harder in sc2, but is that even relevant in the larger picture? (enjoyment of players and spectators). Get off your high horses and learn to have some fun
READ THE TITLE OF THIS WEBSITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But seriously, it's where we are. Sport fans can argue about dumb shit for days on end w/o resolution. Same here.
|
On October 13 2013 09:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. No its not, there are limitations of how good you can become on doing task X in any game. It doesnt matter how competitive the scene is, it isnt about how hard is it TO WIN, its about how hard is it to play. these two things are different, so for example how hard is it to "nearly master" task X compared to task Y. There isnt infinitive room to become better in every single aspect of a game.
You cant compare 2 games if you are not world champion in both.
You simple don´t know how to compare the top skill of both. No one knows.
|
I'm bashing league of legends
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On October 13 2013 09:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. No its not, there are limitations of how good you can become on doing task X in any game. It doesnt matter how competitive the scene is, it isnt about how hard is it TO WIN, its about how hard is it to play. these two things are different, so for example how hard is it to "nearly master" task X compared to task Y. There isnt infinitive room to become better in every single aspect of a game.
I'm talking specifically about competitive games, where the goal is to win. You are on a competitive gaming web site where the majority of people play competitive games to get a feeling of achievement out of winning.
No one is ever impressed by someone beating bots in SC2 or LoL, so I am not really sure what you are arguing. It's the competitive scene that creates the difficulty of these games, it doesn't matter if you are a pro or a noob, it is all relative to your level.
|
On October 13 2013 09:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. No its not, there are limitations of how good you can become on doing task X in any game. It doesnt matter how competitive the scene is, it isnt about how hard is it TO WIN, its about how hard is it to play. these two things are different, so for example how hard is it to "nearly master" task X compared to task Y. There isnt infinitive room to become better in every single aspect of a game.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The objective of the game is to defeat your opponent, therefore the game's difficulty is directly related to how difficult your opponent is. Can you explain what you mean when you say "it isnt about how hard it is to win"?
On October 13 2013 08:19 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 07:24 Plansix wrote:
Guys, golf is harder than basket ball. Its fact. The basket in basket ball is bigger than the hole in golf. Have you seen the control it takes to hit a golf ball that far and into that tiny hold. And Basketball players get to use their HANDs. Basket ball is just made for casual players who can't get into golf and how perfect it is.
....This is how every LoL/Dota vs SC2 argument sounds to me. It is like claiming hockey is harder than baseball because hockey is played on ice. actually golf is the 51st hardest sport while basketball is 4th at least according to the objective data http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkillsmy bad realistically though its kind of difficult to compare the two. you can't really compare SC2 and LOL just by while it seems to me that x is harder
It seems like it ranks the sports in terms of how physically demanding they are, that's not really the same as saying they're harder.
|
On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison.
You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers.
A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against.
|
On October 13 2013 07:32 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 07:25 1Dhalism wrote:On October 13 2013 07:24 Plansix wrote:
Guys, golf is harder than basket ball. Its fact. The basket in basket ball is bigger than the hole in golf. Have you seen the control it takes to hit a golf ball that far and into that tiny hold. And Basketball players get to use their HANDs. Basket ball is just made for casual players who can't get into golf and how perfect it is.
....This is how every LoL/Dota vs SC2 argument sounds to me. It is like claiming hockey is harder than baseball because hockey is played on ice. any game is only as hard as your opponent is  golf is like a single player game where you try to not suck as much as the other people playing the single player game ;p haha
tell that to cosmo
|
You can say that there are two primary mechanical facet of MOBAs in comparing to RTS games.
The first one is ofc just microing, knowing how to maximize the dmg output of a battle by minimizing your own intake. But let's delve deeper into the other one which the majority of the RTS/MOBA audience that don't play the other genere completely ignores due to its nuance.
In tranlation, the "macroing" aspects of RTS games is equivalent to the looting/farming system of MOBAs. The more farm one can optain, the better items, more advanced his hero's/champ's skills are, and money to buyback (when you die, you can spend X amount of money to come back to revive yourself instantly). This is tantamount to SC's teching up and having a bigger army. Likewise, being careful to select your worker to mine, clicking on your production facilities, and remembering the get the right upgrades takes a lot of skills to pull off efficiently; but so does landing the last shot of hit to make money/exp into incoming creeps, denying the opponent's LHs (last hit = last shot of hit to make money/exp), by observant so you know where to transport yourself to the right lane in order to not waste any potential creep farms, and to jungle appropriately (with stacking/pulling). Those gameplay of the two games are EQUALLY HARD to pull off at the highest level.
Next come the decision part. In SC, there are usually 3 macro decisions: to make more units (by constructing more production facilities), to gain economy edge (by expanding), and to get the necessary upgrade. RTS fans calls those "builds". In MOBAs, you need to know which skills to upgrade so that you can synchronize well with your teammates and which items to complement/make up for the weakness of your skills.
In that sense, a good RTS players can and will do well in those two department to decide what personally works well for them. But however MOBA games are team-based game. So even if you are able to farm up really fat by yourself and buy the best items. If you don't plan out everything prior with your team mate, the other team that formulate better plans will be able to quickly pull you in for nasty ganks because they time out their stuns and combo their skills properly.
All in all, not only do you have to have GREAT mechanics in MOBA games, you have to also to complement it with great team synergy. So an RTS player who might be very dominant will not necessarily do well in MOBA games due to this skillset.
TLDR: So RTS fans, do NOT look down upon MOBA games. They are not as easy as you guys make it out to be.
|
On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against.
It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless.
|
On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless.
At this point it is getting really confusing why seemingly intelligent people are not able to grasp this simple concept.
|
On October 13 2013 08:21 wptlzkwjd wrote:I'm gonna miss his never-give-up attitude a.k.a complete opposite of idra style
I'm pretty sure this counts as giving up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
