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Stop the League of Legends bashing. Temp bans will be handed out from now on. - Page 32. |
On October 13 2013 09:54 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2?  As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against. It's not logical at all. We're talking about a multiplayer game here. The objective of the game is to win, therefore the difficulty of the game must be defined by how well your opponent plays. If you try to separate those two concepts then you've just created a definition of game difficulty that is entirely worthless.
When you're talking about competing with the best-of-the-best, yeah there's no skill ceiling in a relevant competitive game.
However, there's two factors to consider:
1) The entrance barrier to competitive play
2) The amount of 'work' in achieving/maintaining a level of skill
1, think of how high your skill level needs to be before you are really playing the same game as the pros. A game like Marvel vs Capcom 2, it takes a TON of time to get a set of skills and knowledge that even lets you fight the average player at a tournament. You need to be able to react to a whole bunch of things, have muscle memory for some very difficult input that represents 'basic moves', and it's all just very difficult. Yeah any game takes a ton of learning to become among the best, but there can be a huge barrier to even play the same game depending on the mechanics..
For 2, consider the best poker player in the world, and the best bareknuckle boxer in the world. Both of them you could say are equally skilled, but which one is easier? When you're 'pwning noobs', either one is a cakewalk for them. They barely have to put any effort into it. But when you're playing against peers who are the best among the best, only one of them needs to schedule a month of training and recovery around the match.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 13 2013 09:38 DPK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Yeah whenever someone brings up "I'll played X amount of games/time in game A and Y amount of games/time in game B, and I have to say game A takes more skills/better than game B." without bringing up any form of evidence to compare the gameplay aspects of both games, it is mostly likely that the person is butthurt because his game A is getting shitted on and he got nothing substantial to defend it. One must avoid making bias comparison. You should read my post again since some evidences are there. Everything is more demanding in a RTS and the skillset needed is more hard to master, people who say otherwise just don't understand both games mechanics and how certain mechanics are more demanding than others. Games, competitive or not, can be easier or harder. Just look at card games for example, don't tell me you think that hearthstone is harder to play or on par with MTG. Same for chess and checkers. A game where mechanics are harder to master will be harder to play, it's just plain logic. I could give you a long list as to why a moba/arts is more easy to play than an RTS but I won't bother since you guys don't seem to understand that the game difficulty is define by how hard the mechanics are to master and not by the skill of the people you play against.
at the start, more mechanically demanding games will be harder to play in the sense that there is stuff to keep up with but once you played enough, it becomes a routine. BW is the most mechanically demanding game to play but take a look at the Kespa players, even the B-teamers who play it. They've neutralized the macro of it in the sense that they are primed to always go back and make units/workers etc... they don't even have to think about it. They just know what they need to make and will continue doing so throughout the game. When you consider SCII macro is much easier than BW, then this mechanical demanding point goes out the window lol.
You play games against other people and you play to win. Skills of other people is just as important if not more than the mechanical demand of the game. You can have a mechanically inferior opponent win against a superior one through other means such as strategy etc... for the record, I've never played LoL or dota2 though I probably will at some point but two games are totally different and doing a direct comparison is not applicable.
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It's funny, but 99% of Koreans picked up by foreign teams are no where near as popular as MKP in the foreign scene. Why can't one foreign team sign MKP and fly him around to compete. If I were a foreign team manager and I want to make noise for my team, the first thing I would do is signing MKP. It's MKP man! Imagine LiquidMKP! I know P is Prime, but still......
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 13 2013 11:14 NoGasfOu wrote:
It's funny, but 99% of Koreans picked up by foreign teams are no where near as popular as MKP in the foreign scene. Why can't one foreign team sign MKP and fly him around to compete. If I were a foreign team manager and I want to make noise for my team, the first thing I would do is signing MKP. It's MKP man! Imagine LiquidMKP! I know P is Prime, but still......
He might not want to leave prime or maybe he demanded a salary or stuff that they couldn't afford? No one knows except the teams themselves although you raise a good point. Let's not forget when reddit raised the money to send him to MLG within 4 hours so he's definitely popular.
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Ouch. Every time I hear a progamer switch or retire, I feel as if a little part of me is dying inside.
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Good for him. Wish him the best of luck, would be awesome to see him take down a major championship, kid deserves it.
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Everyone is quitting, retiring This is so sad, aftrer watching MKP highlights, I remembered how fun it was to play and watch WoL, but as it got older and HOTS came out, the game wasn't the same anymore. Even near the end of WoL....
It just makes me so sad to see the game slowly dying.  (
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If we define game difficulty by how hard it is to figure out, I'd probably say SC2 was a lot easier than LoL.
If you don't agree, think about TvZ.
Z - Roach/bling/ling all in or lose.
T - WMMMM herp herp
TvT.
Banshee all in or 1 rax expand. Marine tank every game, someone goes mech? Ok, I'll go bio! He went bio before I made a transition to mech? Just marine tank.
TvP.
No good early pressure (thanks to MSC), late game is crap, it's just watching 2 people move their blobs away from the other until someone accidentally gets into the range of the other army (which happens to mostly be Protoss because Colossi range is fucking huge).
ZvZ.
Muta wars. That's it.
PvP.
Laser beams that last 50 minutes a game. We can get lucky and have someone like duckdeok end it early, but can get unlucky with someone like Hasuobs who likes spending an hour a game that you spend clicking your army away from the other person's army and sometimes, just sometimes, towards it.
Like there isn't exactly variety to each matchup... I think that really speaks to the "it's more mechanically demanding!" argument though, since it's the game type isn't really varied. Like, if people were forced to be random in a tournament, that would be cool because there wouldn't be a meta that everyone just follows like the Bible.
I mean, I was watching Select's stream and he's playing CatZ and he still 15 CC'd high ground. Just like, what are you doing man... Obviously he'll hatch your natural and you'll just be behind. And guess what? He's ahead. What's he going to go now? Obviously mutas. But he never put up turrets in advance... and he didn't put up bunkers either. He wasn't confused on if CatZ was going for mutas or roach/ling/bling all in; he just didn't care. Like the complete lack of thought exemplified in each game of SC2 I watch is astounding; at the beginning it was cool to watch, because people were inventive and some mistakes were just hilarious (see Moon vs. BitbyBit). But now... you know what's going to happen 20 minutes in advance. It was the same thing in WoL.
I wonder if the design team just thinks "hey this would be a cool meta" and enforces it with their buffs. Because seriously, the meta got stale really fast in HoTS even though it was super flashy and cool and the beginning. You guys don't get tired of it? Just watching the same person do it? I'd rather just watch Innovation play vs. Soulkey than any other TvZ because no one has any flavour to their game, so might as well watch the best game of the same thing happen. Same for every other matchup; I'd rather watch Taeja vs. First than any other Terran or Protoss. Or Bomber vs. Flash for TvT. Game is so stale, why would I want any other version besides the best? Everyone only try to copy them anyways, who cares about people who can only do worse...
For LoL, there's a lot of variety to the game, because there's just more people playing at once, so there are a lot more decision to follow. For example, jungler ganking mid misses out helping bot or top; so he has to come to a decision of whether ganking mid helps his team or not. Also, if he ganks mid, the enemy team will know he's mid, so gank top or bot while he's in mid, thus making it likely the team might lose a lane. Support has to ward to inform people, someone has to build tanky otherwise your team can only do a fight for 3 seconds max and then you're all dead, someone has to build large amounts of attack damage so they can kill the enemy team, etc. Lots of stuff going on, and while some of the things are pretty set in stone (ad carry and support travel together for the laning phase, ability power goes mid, tank usually goes top), at least there's a variety to the decision making for all players involved. Not just "you're here, better drop", "need to make more units", "need more bases", etc.
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Your metagame is so wrong and old that it just discredit everything you wrote.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
Why are people still trying to compare SC2/LoL/Dota 2? It has nothing to do with the topic and it's not like you guys actually listen to each other.
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What champions does he play? Caitlyn? (Stutter Step)
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The only thing I remember about MKP is how he sweat like crazy and threw his lead in the game vs. Rain in the OSL season when Rain crowned champion. 
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 13 2013 14:22 JBright wrote:
Why are people still trying to compare SC2/LoL/Dota 2? It has nothing to do with the topic and it's not like you guys actually listen to each other.
human nature lol
On October 13 2013 15:17 illidanx wrote:The only thing I remember about MKP is how he sweat like crazy and threw his lead in the game vs. Rain in the OSL season when Rain crowned champion.
? Didn't DRG play Rain and lose 4-1 or did you mean MKP played Rain earlier in the first OSL?
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United States97274 Posts
On October 13 2013 16:00 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 14:22 JBright wrote:
Why are people still trying to compare SC2/LoL/Dota 2? It has nothing to do with the topic and it's not like you guys actually listen to each other. human nature lol Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 15:17 illidanx wrote:The only thing I remember about MKP is how he sweat like crazy and threw his lead in the game vs. Rain in the OSL season when Rain crowned champion. ? Didn't DRG play Rain and lose 4-1 or did you mean MKP played Rain earlier in the first OSL?
They played in the group stage and MKP threw a massive lead on Daybreak
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WCS really changed the landscape of sc2. It's just the prize money. it's not as high as what it used to be...
Marine king has always been interested in LOL before this happened. He was just a casual player before but he seriously started league 3 months ago.
I for one think this is a great move because Marineking was always known for his micro. He's one of THE MICRO players.
I think he'll be a good mid or ad. He used to command armies now it's just a hero. But he needs to learn how to work with his team and stuff. but I still think he has TONS of potential.
And he wouldn't haved moved if he didn't want to move, sc2 has new generations of good players anyway.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 13 2013 16:00 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 16:00 BigFan wrote:On October 13 2013 14:22 JBright wrote:
Why are people still trying to compare SC2/LoL/Dota 2? It has nothing to do with the topic and it's not like you guys actually listen to each other. human nature lol On October 13 2013 15:17 illidanx wrote:The only thing I remember about MKP is how he sweat like crazy and threw his lead in the game vs. Rain in the OSL season when Rain crowned champion. ? Didn't DRG play Rain and lose 4-1 or did you mean MKP played Rain earlier in the first OSL? They played in the group stage and MKP threw a massive lead on Daybreak
oh I see. I didn't follow the first OSL when it moved to SCII. Just knew that Rain won over DRG 4-1 and that he crushed everyone lol. Thanks!
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On October 13 2013 14:22 JBright wrote:
Why are people still trying to compare SC2/LoL/Dota 2? It has nothing to do with the topic and it's not like you guys actually listen to each other.
My sentiments exactly.
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All you people that say all games are equally difficult should try participating in the Tour de France and see how it compares to a league of legends tournament.
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On October 13 2013 21:09 Grumbels wrote:
All you people that say all games are equally difficult should try participating in the Tour de France and see how it compares to a league of legends tournament.
If I put as much time and effort into biking, as I am into video games it probably wouldn't sound as horrible as it does on the wiki page.
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On October 13 2013 09:36 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 09:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 13 2013 08:50 DonKey_ wrote:On October 13 2013 08:38 DPK wrote:On October 13 2013 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Indeed, people who claim that LoL is easier are just jumping to conclusions because they are watching a game that they are not used to watch or play. Both rts and moba are mechanically taxing, but in different ways. In rts, everything is about the speed. Each of your clicks might not be very precise, but that does not matter as long as you have the necessary speed to make up for it. You lost one engagement due to poor micro? Who cares, when you are harassing at three other locations because you have the speed to cycle through all of your hitsquads and give them rough orders. In moba, everything is about precision. All the speed in the world does not matter, if you do not manage to place the clicks at the exact location where it matters, at the exact time when it matters. What does it matter that you are able to control two seperate groups of units? If your opponent is mechanically superior to you and last kills every of your mob while denying you killing his, his team is more likely to win. Personally, I prefer watching rts because watching a player handle three seperate engagements at the same time (in addition to macro) is much more impressive than watching a single player killing and denying every creep in front of him for 40 minutes while dodging his opponents attacks. But that is just my opinion. Anyways, back to topic: does it make me a bad person, if I hope that MKP fails in LoL so that he returns to sc2? As someone who played both Sc2 and LoL from the start (not at a high level, just casual stuff) I can tell you that LoL is indeed a lot more easy to play than sc2. Sure both games have different mechanics and skillset, but 1 game is a lot more demanding than the other and it's obvious from the start when you play. In LoL (or even moba/arts in general), the most important factor is teamwork, nothing more, nothing less. The 2nd would be knowledge of champions and team comps. You could have the best players in the world all in the same team, if they don't play well together, they will have a hard time winning. Having better mechanics won't help you at all if you can't communicate well enough in a team. Same for precision. And let's be honest here, having precision is not a skill that is hard to get as opposed to being able to macro well or being fast in a RTS. The skillset required to play a moba/arts is a lot more easy to get than the ones in a RTS. Also, it's a lot more forgiving to make mistakes in LoL/Dota than it is in a RTS, IMHO. Sure sometimes the mistake will cost you the game in a moba/arts but a lot less often than an RTS. I wanna be clear that I'm not bashing LoL/Dota here, I like both games, been playing LoL on and off before it became popular (since the 1st day of closed beta) and just started to watch some dota2 since TI3. It just baffles me that some people actually think that moba/arts are as hard to play than a RTS when in fact, it's not. I feel like I need to say something because there is a big enough group of people who think as you do about comparing the skill in multiplayer games. There is no such thing as X game is easier than Y game in a competitive environment. Competitive multiplayer games games are not Super Mario; there is no static difficulty to them. The difficulty of these games ramps with the skill of the people you play against. I mean I always thought this was an easy concept to understand, but every single thread where comparisons of LoL and SC2 or Dota2 and LoL pop up, there's always at least one guy with "but I've played both games and X game definitely takes more skill". The argument is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. No its not, there are limitations of how good you can become on doing task X in any game. It doesnt matter how competitive the scene is, it isnt about how hard is it TO WIN, its about how hard is it to play. these two things are different, so for example how hard is it to "nearly master" task X compared to task Y. There isnt infinitive room to become better in every single aspect of a game. I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The objective of the game is to defeat your opponent, therefore the game's difficulty is directly related to how difficult your opponent is. Can you explain what you mean when you say "it isnt about how hard it is to win"?
Yeah ofc it is the goal to win, but it is achieved by doing many tasks throughout a game. For example lasthitting in League, would you argue that there is much room left for the pros in getting better at it? I can see you saying now that the enemies should deny you as many as possible, thats fine, but that doesnt really matter. When you are zoned by the enemy your goal is simply to get all the lasthits that are save for you and i dont see any more potential in that for example.
Or buildorders, one would argue that its pretty straight forward now, there isnt much room for getting better itembuilds now.
SO ofc you have to be better relative to your competition, but the game has limitations (some people use skillcap, but i dont agree on that entirely, cause there are always a few things that anyone can get better, its only a matter if that means much in the end, for example is it worth it to get a little bit better at creepspread if you need 1000h to achieve that).
In the end i just want to say that not every task in itself is hard enough that the competition matters, here: i would argue that many diamond players (in lol) can lasthit just as good at the tower as pros.
In lol there is mostly teamwork to get better at, mechanics are just not hard enough to really shine.
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EPT
