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On October 03 2013 13:41 Ctesias wrote:
Overall very interesting changes. I just hope that this doesn't mean an excessive amount of Oracle proxies and, even more importantly, that the Widow Mine is lost entirely - like the Hellbat.
Pretty confident that will be the case. Although if it throws up some different strategies I guess I will be ok with it, even if terran gets crushed.
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On October 03 2013 12:25 Bagi wrote:
Do people actually play these test maps? What kind of conclusions can be drawn from some metal league players just fooling around with the changed units?
The only conclusion that matters is if the changes are liked.
This is effectively a glorified opinion poll.
Balance at pro level is irrelevant here.
On October 03 2013 13:41 PineapplePizza wrote:
I dunno why they won't add +shield damage to tanks.
Tanks already do extra damage to armored.
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Lol, they keep with the gimmicky style for the P till the end. Gotta say it: Fuck you dev team, thx for making a super popular franchise fail.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
Cant wait to test it!
Great job, blizz!
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If there is not already there should be a chat channel for this map so people can find the matchup they want with the skill level they want ex: diam T looking for diam Z? Maybe someone could make a thread that introduces the channel. People can post about actual games they played on map (as opposed to theory-crafting) and post replays and concerns and such... I'd do it but im too lazy  We could call it "balance test results" or something.
Just a thought
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On October 03 2013 16:21 Doc Brawler wrote:If there is not already there should be a chat channel for this map so people can find the matchup they want with the skill level they want ex: diam T looking for diam Z? Maybe someone could make a thread that introduces the channel. People can post about actual games they played on map (as opposed to theory-crafting) and post replays and concerns and such... I'd do it but im too lazy We could call it "balance test results" or something. Just a thought
Yeah! That would be nice. Additional game mode, with his own chat channels and additional menu with customizable search options (opponent skill level, race, etc).
AND my Greatest suggestion: if u blizzard do not wanna let this game die, just add as much achievements and rewards as u can. It always fun tor recieve something. And i think it could help to bring many people back. Make them to be something, that can help newcomers to enjoy this game, i mean 2 learn game mechanics.
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The main problem in TvZ right now is that the OPness of mines is counter balanced by the OPness of mutas. With the overseer patch we saw a slight balancing between those two going in favor of Z but it can still evolve in either ways.
What really blow my mind is that blizzard seriously think that they can promote the use of tanks in TvZ against the actual mass mutas meta. As mutas are a direct counter of the siege tank I really don't see this work out at all for BIO+ support play.
It will definitively help mech players tough.
I really want to see something done about mutas at the same time as for widow mine or we might just jump from only 4M to only mech in TvZ.
As they done the spore crawler patch to end the mass mutas war in ZvZ, buffing turrets via a late game upgrade doing splash dmg could really change the endgame where basically the flock of 30-35 mutas can move anywhere uncontested as we saw in many pro games of the last month. It's just an idea , maybe it's too OP don't know.
Right now, I play zerg and terran at a diamond level and in the balance test map I rolled on every terran that went bio+Tank mine. When i went terran i was defeated also by the mass muta thing.
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with these changes, i can only see widowmines as portable turrets that can protect tanks.
edit- in TvZ or course.
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This "more diversity" patch is just a fible attempt to cover up fundamental flaws of the game. I'm not sure why they're afraid of making big changes. Starcraft isn't in good spot right now and nothing major to lose if you make a bad change (which is highly unlikely).
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I think terran will have to mix in siege tanks now and not depend on widow mines as much, this will probably break the parade push. Siege tank pushes are probably slower and more vulnerable to mutalisks, forcing you to invest in missile turrets, mines or even thors. Presumably terran can still be threatening though, especially with the new siege tank, and they can use more positional play to set up good drops even with mutalisks around. And they can invest in mech upgrades for the thor and siege tank to set-up a transition into raven & battlecruiser. I guess it will be good on maps like Akilon, but not on whirlwind. Or maybe pure mech will be more viable now, I don't know.
It's always easy to look at a patch and see what it breaks, the parade push in this case, but it doesn't tell you the full story about how the game will play out. My gut feeling would say that mass mutalisk will be impossible to stop, but I don't know.
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I am liking the tank change after 5 games or so.
But I feel it could be buffed in another way.
increasing the attack speed makes each of the shots FEEL weaker.
also unrelated to this patch, I had been thinking why not add an animation that shows forcefields are about to disappear. a few clarification would help other race and toss himself to make better decision
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On October 03 2013 13:41 PineapplePizza wrote:
I dunno why they won't add +shield damage to tanks.
Tanks already do extra damage to armored.[/QUOTE]
He means extra damage to protoss plasma shields, just like the widowmine does. Shield is not the same as armor. Tanks are really crappy vs protoss, I completely agree that tanks should do extra vs plasma shields. This extra damage should also apply to immortals, which is probably one of the hardest of hard counters in the game.
Currently it takes a tank 15 shots to kill an immortal. Tanks have 3 second fire rate. That means it takes 60 seconds for a tank to kill one immortal. When you look at it like that, it's ridiculous
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51481 Posts
Can't wait to see the pros play these changes, and to be fair to Blizzard here, most of these changes are aimed at the top level games which is even better.
Hoping to see more tanks and less mines!
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Whilst mines can be extremely strong, they are wildly inconsistent in their usefulness. TvZ has become stale over the past couple of months but this is a significant nerf to an already inconistent unit. I'm not sure how useful buffed tanks will be in the place of the current WM.
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On October 03 2013 16:53 rice_devOurer wrote:
with these changes, i can only see widowmines as portable turrets that can protect tanks.
edit- in TvZ or course.
That would not actually be bad. Widow Mines cost 75/25, for them to be a core unit is just so, so silly. For what they cost they fill way too many roles and do way too much damage. So Blizzard putting it back to a rather supporting unit is a-okay imho.
If you want the mine to stay what it is now, you'd have to hugely increase it's cost. Because right now, it's as expensive as a roach and does 5x times of what the roach is capable of.
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On October 03 2013 17:27 Millet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 14:50 pmp10 wrote:On October 03 2013 13:41 PineapplePizza wrote:
I dunno why they won't add +shield damage to tanks. Tanks already do extra damage to armored. He means extra damage to protoss plasma shields, just like the widowmine does. Shield is not the same as armor. Tanks are really crappy vs protoss, I completely agree that tanks should do extra vs plasma shields. This extra damage should also apply to immortals, which is probably one of the hardest of hard counters in the game.
I get that but you only get one damage bonus per unit.
Like it or not the '+armored' is important in all 3 match-ups whereas '+shields' would only work in one.
That's a lot of tank interactions you could be breaking for the sake of a buff that may not even do much.
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Actual it is more that tanks do less damage vs non-armored. Yes a matter of how you read it, but it was introduced as a large nerf to siege tanks.
If you want the mine to stay what it is now, you'd have to hugely increase it's cost. Because right now, it's as expensive as a roach and does 5x times of what the roach is capable of.
Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
I am all for having siege tanks replace widow mines, but in the current meta that simply is not realistic. There is a reason that despite the hellbat and free siege upgrade terrans quickly stopped using siege tanks in HotS, zergs got so many hardcounters to siege tank play it simply is not on par with widow mines. That isn't simply because widow mines would be horribly OP, but because siege tanks are crap. Widow mines as mobile turrets? Sure, after you make them one supply. But if I place 3 WMs per siege tank they still die to mutas (two of the WMs probably sniped without firing), and I don't have enough siege tanks to have them actually useful, and I am better of with WMs anyway. Add a few siege tanks to your army and it becomes alot WORSE. Yes I said it, more units = worse army. Simply because you give up all your mobility and the option to keep rallying units forward.
If they want siege tanks useful, what I think needs to change (maybe not all, but in general):
Thors + damage vs air (at least mutas).
Add missile turret splash damage upgrade from WoL campaign.
- OR -
Really nerf mutalisks.
Change blinding cloud to larger area, but only something like -5 range.
Then we still got issues with ultras and swarmhosts, but that would be a good place to start.
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On October 03 2013 17:44 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 17:27 Millet wrote:On October 03 2013 14:50 pmp10 wrote:On October 03 2013 13:41 PineapplePizza wrote:
I dunno why they won't add +shield damage to tanks. Tanks already do extra damage to armored. He means extra damage to protoss plasma shields, just like the widowmine does. Shield is not the same as armor. Tanks are really crappy vs protoss, I completely agree that tanks should do extra vs plasma shields. This extra damage should also apply to immortals, which is probably one of the hardest of hard counters in the game. I get that but you only get one damage bonus per unit. Like it or not the '+armored' is important in all 3 match-ups whereas '+shields' would only work in one. That's a lot of tank interactions you could be breaking for the sake of a buff that may not even do much.
You can add more than one type of bonus damage to units. You can also add bonus damage to shields, life, or energy.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kNcidy9.jpg)
You would need a command card icon to show that the unit does, in fact, deal bonus damage to shields.
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Great suggestions overall!! Only scepticism I have is if this ends up making mech or sky terran more viable. I really hate mech. It's not fun to watch, not fun to play against, and it doesn't even require nearly the same kind of mechanics. You'd have to fundamentally change how mech is played to make it even remotely interesting in competitive SC2.
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well you save 525/525 now, so there is some money at least for the infrastructure to go mech and air, but well, wether the composition works is another matter entirely...
on the other hand, congratulations blizzard, medivacboost is now the only new thing in hots! you deleted the warhound, you drilled, err nerfed the widowmine INTO THE GROUND, and got rid of the early to midgame power of hellbats, what a lategame unit to look forward to!
now now, not all is bad, the most easily countered unit in sc2, at least for protoss and zerg, namely the siegetank, received a glorious 10% atkspd buff!
a job well done, now finally i can count the units worth building with one hand!
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EPT
