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I am all for having siege tanks replace widow mines, but in the current meta that simply is not realistic. There is a reason that despite the hellbat and free siege upgrade terrans quickly stopped using siege tanks in HotS, zergs got so many hardcounters to siege tank play it simply is not on par with widow mines. That isn't simply because widow mines would be horribly OP, but because siege tanks are crap. Widow mines as mobile turrets? Sure, after you make them one supply. But if I place 3 WMs per siege tank they still die to mutas (two of the WMs probably sniped without firing), and I don't have enough siege tanks to have them actually useful, and I am better of with WMs anyway. Add a few siege tanks to your army and it becomes alot WORSE. Yes I said it, more units = worse army. Simply because you give up all your mobility and the option to keep rallying units forward.
Mixing WM and tanks makes you have not enough of either of them. Tanks has been proven to be effective only in a consistent number like 5-6. In Wol we saw production from 2 factory for tanks to have consistently a good amount of tanks. So if we follow the logic of blizzard we should have something like 2 factory for tanks 1 for WM with reactor, going for tank attack upgrade at the same time and bio upgrades + medivacs to heal the bio army.
In bio mine strat i always feel short of gas until the lategame when you start banking because you don't upgrade anymore. I really don't see how we can afford so much stuff with the amount of gas we mine from 3 bases.
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On October 03 2013 18:09 PineapplePizza wrote:
You would need a command card icon to show that the unit does, in fact, deal bonus damage to shields.
You don't even need that. In the Brood War remake, we have three different lines appearing when you move over the weapon, standard, vs medium and vs small. The WoL void ray had a command card notification vs massive, but that was because charge, non-charged, armored, light and massive made like ten different cases depending on what you targeted.
The editor makes it possible to add a bonus (positive or negative), multiplicative coefficient, or both for each subtype, with a further bonus and coefficient in case of shields. I don't know exactly how things work out mathematically, but the "only one bonus per unit" is in the game for the sake of clarity, not because of a technical limitation.
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On October 03 2013 18:22 Naphal wrote:
well you save 525/525 now, so there is some money at least for the infrastructure to go mech and air, but well, wether the composition works is another matter entirely...
on the other hand, congratulations blizzard, medivacboost is now the only new thing in hots! you deleted the warhound, you drilled, err nerfed the widowmine INTO THE GROUND, and got rid of the early to midgame power of hellbats, what a lategame unit to look forward to!
now now, not all is bad, the most easily countered unit in sc2, at least for protoss and zerg, namely the siegetank, received a glorious 10% atkspd buff!
a job well done, now finally i can count the units worth building with one hand!
There are scouting reapers, though.
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Wow, nobody sees that this buffs/nerfs especially weaken protoss..
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more, that means that lategame mec armies (if the terran gets to it, its not easy, but IF) are even stronger overall, because of the quicker attack. With Ghosts in a mec army, which shoots quicker.. Horror :'(
Roach burrow-movement is a hell for protoss in midgame, I guess we will see some sweet 12 minute roach maxout burrowmovement timings... Which is now already not easy to hold, now they can negate many forcefields easily and just close the distance without too many loses..
The oracle buff isn't something really helpful, I mean there is no doubt that oracles are gimmicky and yet designed to do early dmg and if not you may use them for revelation and that's it. The buffs don't give them any mid- or lategamefocussed buffs, they stay the gimmicky glascannon they are.
I'm glad they try to fix TvZ finally, it was a pain in the ass to watch it in the last time.. But still, I think the main problem is the 3/3 issue, but maybe the metagame will switch or smth.
About the Ship and Ground upgrades put together... I actually hate it, TvT will just be mec now, because a bio player will never win in the lategame because of the extrem upgradelead the mec player will get.
TvZ will be ugly too, 3/3 vikings vs a zerg in the 20 minute, while the Zerg is just getting his first air upgrades for their corrupter. So Air switches will be very easy in longer termed macro games. And the air fights will always be in the terran's favour if he went for mec. So we are going to see diehard timings of the zerg to try to end the game before the terran will switch to air. Btw. Vipers will die more easily now :D
Overall I just feel like they try to fix the game on the wrong places..
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On October 03 2013 18:38 SalvationII wrote:
Wow, nobody sees that this buffs/nerfs especially weaken protoss..
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more, that means that lategame mec armies (if the terran gets to it, its not easy, but IF) are even stronger overall, because of the quicker attack. With Ghosts in a mec army, which shoots quicker.. Horror :'(
Tanks softcountering immortals? Lol. Immortals still hardcounter tanks. And even stronger lategame mech army? Toss should have no problem countering a lategame mech army.
TvZ will be ugly too, 3/3 vikings vs a zerg in the 20 minute, while the Zerg is just getting his first air upgrades for their corrupter. So Air switches will be very easy in longer termed macro games. And the air fights will always be in the terran's favour if he went for mec. So we are going to see diehard timings of the zerg to try to end the game before the terran will switch to air. Btw. Vipers will die more easily now :D
Still not before they cast blinding cloud and the mech player loses.
And yeah when going mech and losing horribly you have better vikings. But vikings are still fairly bad against ultras (see also the HotS trailer), and a zerg can switch to air very fast.
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If anybody wants to play the balance map with me, I'm in the TL channel on NA. Around platin level zerg  .
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Oracle speed: BAD idea. People cry about medivacs and now oracles, these things that 2shot workers and small light units, become as fast as mutas?
Terran mech upgrade merge: TvT only change again. D. Kim seems to have absolutely no idea, what his changes will do in what matchup. The Banshee change was of the same kind. These changes only shake up TvT. Will make it for Bio/(Tank) players very hard to transition into Sky Terran (against mech).
Siege Tank attack speed buff: "faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters. " You wanted another proof of D.Kim´s lack of understanding of SC2? Here you have it, because this is plain wrong! This change makes Tanks way more better against things, they are already good against, while not changing anything against things they are bad.
Widow mine splash nerf: The balance change needed to send Terrans back to WoL. Here you have it. With the upgrade merge, you will still see those units in TvT for sure, because mech will be much stronger there because of the other 2 changes. But don´t expect WM or Hellbats in any non-mirror.
Roach burrow speed buff: Good change. Won´t break anything I guess? And will create some opportunities for zerg players to show some skill!
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On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote:
Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ?
Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on...
A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac.
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On October 03 2013 18:59 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote:
Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ? Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on... A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac.
same goes for banelings. That´s what you expect to get with those one shot wonders.
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On October 03 2013 19:02 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 18:59 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote:
Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ? Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on... A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac. same goes for banelings. That´s what you expect to get with those one shot wonders.
Nuking my post because i'm not sure i understood you. So my post could be pointless
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On October 03 2013 19:02 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 18:59 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote:
Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ? Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on... A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac. same goes for banelings. That´s what you expect to get with those one shot wonders.
banelings can be trade efficiently.
as long as the mines kill off one baneling, it has pretty much paid for the resources
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I like all the changes except that the Tank buff is probably way to small to make a difference for TvP TvZ mech.
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The Oracle buff will lead to even more allins in PvT. It's already frustrating how many Allins Protoss has in this mu. It's easy to execute and why should u play long games when you can end it fast?
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On October 03 2013 19:10 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 19:02 TeeTS wrote:On October 03 2013 18:59 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote:
Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ? Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on... A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac. same goes for banelings. That´s what you expect to get with those one shot wonders. banelings can be trade efficiently. as long as the mines kill off one baneling, it has pretty much paid for the resources
and this is why mines also kill parts of the terran army. because this way, they can be very inefficiant for you, when they kill 2 lings and 8 marines  Can´t happen with banelings or?
to explain the comparison between banelings and widow mines a bit more: Both units are similar in the fact, that they are one shot high AoE damage units. Banelings are more safe doing that: They have no friendly fire and you have a guaranteed detonate, even if they get killed. They pay this safety with utility: no recharge (well they die while attacking), no anti air. Widow mines offer more possible durability and anti Air. But you pay this with the danger of friendly fire and not getting a single shot out, when they are killed quickly.
I do NOT want to say, that banelings are OP. I want to show, that it is as pointless to whine about widow mines as it is to whine about banelings.
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How can so many people approve on combining the mech and air upgrades? Biggest joke so far from blizzard, they "think" its a step in the right direction...simply playing your own game would tell you that combining the upgrades is foolish. Zerg cannot kill terran air in a fight.
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Why would you buff oracle speed? They are ridiculously strong against workers. It's adding a big annoyance where there need not be one.
Great news on the widow mine nerf.
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On October 03 2013 18:22 Naphal wrote:
rr nerfed the widowmine INTO THE GROUND,
Well since someone complained that his widow mines are killing his own medivacs. This is now not the case anymore, so I guess it's a buff?
But seriously, you guys are having such opposed opinions without even talking about things people offer. You only see 10% atk speed buff from siege tank, others see siegetanks being 10% more viable now which is still fine. There was a reddit post showing that it actually makes a difference against protoss that is quite noticeable.
If anything, you guys should PLAY first, THEN judge. Because I think most of you just see the proposed changes and say "WELL FUCK THIS GUYS YOU SUCK!"
Way to bring constructive criticism, guys.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
It actually got harder to control oracles... I sent it to my opponent's base, looked away and - wtf it's already at his base, I don't have time to macro, PANIC
Skill unit for sure
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Russian Federation262 Posts
If anything, you guys should PLAY first, THEN judge. Because I think most of you just see the proposed changes and say "WELL FUCK THIS GUYS YOU SUCK!"
Way to bring constructive criticism, guys.
Just listen to this guy - he knows something u dont...
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Guess it will be even harder for Terran. More stuff to watch out for and less powerfull mines.
Is this map released on EU yet? Can't find it. If it is, how do I find it??
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EPT
