|
On October 08 2013 18:45 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 18:06 Big J wrote:On October 08 2013 17:47 Sissors wrote:On October 08 2013 02:28 Qikz wrote:On October 08 2013 02:15 Big J wrote:On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still. Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas. Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras. Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers. But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway. wut?????? Replay of this, I want to see this situation where you can throw away a whole ultralisk army for half a Mech ball and win despite SC2's capped income not giving you any income advantage with full map control. It happens. Maybe not with such numbers, but it really is win for Zerg to cut like 1/3 of upgraded mech army in late-late game scenario while losing way more in the same time. You don't want to go down just to drones obviously, but I have been in such scenarios. Depends on many factory, bases, bank, etc..
Obviously there are scenarios where you can trade inefficiently in this game. Especially for Zerg.
But as you say, it depends on many factors, most of them being dependend on the actual game.
|
I think it all could be pretty cool but IMO zerg is going to get the least out of it.
As a new terran player I'm pretty pumped.
|
On October 08 2013 19:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 18:45 Everlong wrote:On October 08 2013 18:06 Big J wrote:On October 08 2013 17:47 Sissors wrote:On October 08 2013 02:28 Qikz wrote:On October 08 2013 02:15 Big J wrote:On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still. Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas. Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras. Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers. But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway. wut?????? Replay of this, I want to see this situation where you can throw away a whole ultralisk army for half a Mech ball and win despite SC2's capped income not giving you any income advantage with full map control. It happens. Maybe not with such numbers, but it really is win for Zerg to cut like 1/3 of upgraded mech army in late-late game scenario while losing way more in the same time. You don't want to go down just to drones obviously, but I have been in such scenarios. Depends on many factory, bases, bank, etc.. Obviously there are scenarios where you can trade inefficiently in this game. Especially for Zerg. But as you say, it depends on many factors, most of them being dependend on the actual game.
As a masters meching player myself I can say that this kind of thing is way more common than you'd think. As mech you are so confined and limited in gas income that a zerg that just takes every geyser on the map (gas income isn't capped) and can just literally throw ultras at you, trade VERY cost innefectively and still get a huge edge because you can't really counter attack to punish that.
I've had situations where a zerg would suicide ALL of their army just to barely kill a fortified third or forth base and it's still worth it for them. Swarm Hosts completely shutdown any non-air based mech play that tries to actually be agressive and active on the map, so you're pretty much forced into turtling hardcore and basically never attack until zerg runs out or resources (I'm assuming a good zerg player that plays correctly against mech, most zergs are clueless and you can actually kill them before that).
|
^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets
he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc.
destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient.
in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2
|
On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote:^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2
So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over.
And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl, Idra played like a fool and deserved to lose, it's a shame that it takes a meching player a whole fucking hour or more to do that...oh well, I'm a patient guy so I don't mind.
HTOMario was leveling an account from 0 on KR server, and was playing against a lot of nubs. He was advertising like "87% w/l" on his stream, and when I went to watch it he was still getting matched against diamonds on some games...check his winrate now, I doubt it's 91%, and if he keeps playing it will obviously decrease as time goes on, to the point where he'll start getting destroyed way before he can get 20ravens. Raven-based mech isn't OP, it's the only way to mech properly against zergs that know better(not many) and even then it's not viable in pro-play.
Maybe ladder-zergs should stop playing on auto-pilot instead of QQing.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 11 2013 01:21 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote:^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2 So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over. And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl
Maybe you, oh the great maestro of zerg, know the answer on how to fight turtling mech, assuming that terran actually turtles well.
|
On October 11 2013 01:22 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 01:21 fried_rice wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote:^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2 So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over. And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl Maybe you, oh the great maestro of zerg, know the answer on how to fight turtling mech, assuming that terran actually turtles well.
I don't play Zerg, but if you wanna go down that road...it doesn't take a genius zerg player to realize that mass corruptor/broodlord isn't going to fare well against 3-3 mass raven/viking. Not to mention avilo has a lot of experience and incredible macro in late game engagements, unlike SHs/BLs, Raven based compositions require a lot of micro and smart positioning instead of just a-moving and rallying free units, and whereas most people don't play 30+ minute games, experienced mech players have a lot of practice in late game engagements and get naturally better at it than other people.
A lot of people cry and shout that mech is the strongest strategy in TvT, and how bio won't be viable if the patch goes through etc etc. As a meching player myself, when I play pure bio in TvT against mech I actually find it much easier to win than when I'm meching against bio (which is my expertise), because I understand well how to exploit and can instantly recognize any weakness that shows up in any mech player.
If I started playing Zerg now, with the current experience I have, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be troublesome to beat mech. My TvZ games on the ladder are VERY one sided, both wins and losses, it's just that fewer players understand how to play against mech, some people think they are entitled to a win just because they have good mechanics and creep spread (spoiled zergs from imba WOL days maybe?), and keep charging head on into a huge tank like.
I literally get people raging at me, saying they should have won because they "macro well and have 2x my apm"...tough shit, gotta use your brain a little bit to beat mech instead of just playing autopilot builds/styles with300apm and good macro, , mech is true S in this RTS game.
|
On October 11 2013 01:21 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote:^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2 So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over. And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl, Idra played like a fool and deserved to lose, it's a shame that it takes a meching player a whole fucking hour or more to do that...oh well, I'm a patient guy so I don't mind. HTOMario was leveling an account from 0 on KR server, and was playing against a lot of nubs. He was advertising like "87% w/l" on his stream, and when I went to watch it he was still getting matched against diamonds on some games...check his winrate now, I doubt it's 91%, and if he keeps playing it will obviously decrease as time goes on, to the point where he'll start getting destroyed way before he can get 20ravens. Raven-based mech isn't OP, it's the only way to mech properly against zergs that know better(not many) and even then it's not viable in pro-play. Maybe ladder-zergs should stop playing on auto-pilot instead of QQing.
I didn't even watch idra vs avilo game lol
I am just pointing out that mech can be super cost efficient unlike what you said.
this is interesting, first you stated you are masters and put out your opinion.
then you call off HTOmario, a GM in Korea because you think he isn't really in master? I don't know what to think man. Should league count anymore?
So because he didn't get 91% win rate in TvZ, makes his pure meching in GM invalid?
|
On October 11 2013 01:34 ETisME wrote:
I didn't even watch idra vs avilo game lol
I am just pointing out that mech can be super cost efficient unlike what you said.
this is interesting, first you stated you are masters and put out your opinion.
then you call off HTOmario, a GM in Korea because you think he isn't really in master? I don't know what to think man. Should league count anymore?
So because he didn't get 91% win rate in TvZ, makes his pure meching in GM invalid?
WHAT? Where did I say he isn't in masters? I'm saying that his account at the start was being leveled with a brand new MMR and because of that he wasn't getting matched against equally skilled people at first and because of that he had an insane winrate on KR server (which is already decreasing). Way to misread completely and disregard the rest of my post, next time try not to derail the discussion.
I really respect HTOMario, he's very skilled and one of the smartest players around, and in no way would I discredit his accomplishments (as you can tell by actually reading my post), but I highly doubt that he somehow he "broke" the matchup, as can be evidenced in proplay where mech or ravens don't even exist. Might as well remove Ravens, BCs and Thors from the game, that will have literally zero impact in any tournament game outside of TvT.
In beta of HOTS I had 90%+ winrate in TvP in masters by going full-skyterran(banshee/raven/viking) with mass hellbat/hellion support(before transf servos existed and blueflame wasn't required). Does that mean we should nerf banshees because they are OP in TvP? I mean, maybe the metagame will eventually shift into that, it's just that those silly koreans don't know any better and keep trying to use marines and medivacs when in fact they should be going FE into 3starports....right???
I actually stopped using that style even though I had insane winrate with it because the few players who would stop panicking or playing on autopilot (like not scouting and going colossi against banshees then calling me a faggot and leaving when I show up with a bunch of banshees to snipe their third and tech) and actually THINK during a match would COMPLETELY DESTROY ME like I didn't even had a slight fighting chance....it felt bad so I stopped and went back to my barely 50% winrate "regular mech".
The same thing with applies to Ravens and TVZ mech.
|
i'm in favor of these types of nerfs, but besides the roach speed one, i'm not sure if they will make that big of a difference, i damage increase on tanks might help
|
On October 11 2013 01:37 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 01:34 ETisME wrote:
I didn't even watch idra vs avilo game lol
I am just pointing out that mech can be super cost efficient unlike what you said.
this is interesting, first you stated you are masters and put out your opinion.
then you call off HTOmario, a GM in Korea because you think he isn't really in master? I don't know what to think man. Should league count anymore?
So because he didn't get 91% win rate in TvZ, makes his pure meching in GM invalid? WHAT? Where did I say he isn't in masters? I'm saying that his account at the start was being leveled with a brand new MMR and because of that he wasn't getting matched against equally skilled people at first and because of that he had an insane winrate on KR server (which is already decreasing). Way to misread completely and disregard the rest of my post. I really respect HTOMario, he's very skilled and one of the smartest players around, but I highly doubt that he somehow he "broke" the matchup, as can be evidenced in proplay (where mech or ravens don't even exist).
HTOMario was leveling an account from 0 on KR server, and was playing against a lot of nubs. He was advertising like "87% w/l" on his stream, and when I went to watch it he was still getting matched against diamonds on some games
way to dismiss my point as well.
Just because he faced diamond doesn't mean he didn't make mech all the way up to where his rank is now, even if the win rate is boosted.
you stated as your opinion as a master terran, I put up a GM Korea Terran as a respond and then you said his mmr win rate boosted etc as if he didn't get to Korea GM with mech as if his opinion doesn't matter while yours is.
|
Ok, to clear this up then, I don't think his OPINION on Raven-mech or whatever being OP matters because all EVIDENCE states otherwise and that makes his opinion not qualified, like I've been trying to explain on my long posts all along, regardless of mine or anyone's league/rank/race/winrate or whatever.
|
I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 11 2013 01:29 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 01:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 11 2013 01:21 fried_rice wrote:On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote:^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2 So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over. And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl Maybe you, oh the great maestro of zerg, know the answer on how to fight turtling mech, assuming that terran actually turtles well. I don't play Zerg, but if you wanna go down that road...it doesn't take a genius zerg player to realize that mass corruptor/broodlord isn't going to fare well against 3-3 mass raven/viking. Not to mention avilo has a lot of experience and incredible macro in late game engagements, unlike SHs/BLs, Raven based compositions require a lot of micro and smart positioning instead of just a-moving and rallying free units, and whereas most people don't play 30+ minute games, experienced mech players have a lot of practice in late game engagements and get naturally better at it than other people. A lot of people cry and shout that mech is the strongest strategy in TvT, and how bio won't be viable if the patch goes through etc etc. As a meching player myself, when I play pure bio in TvT against mech I actually find it much easier to win than when I'm meching against bio (which is my expertise), because I understand well how to exploit and can instantly recognize any weakness that shows up in any mech player. If I started playing Zerg now, with the current experience I have, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be troublesome to beat mech. My TvZ games on the ladder are VERY one sided, both wins and losses, it's just that fewer players understand how to play against mech, some people think they are entitled to a win just because they have good mechanics and creep spread (spoiled zergs from imba WOL days maybe?), and keep charging head on into a huge tank like. I literally get people raging at me, saying they should have won because they "macro well and have 2x my apm"...tough shit, gotta use your brain a little bit to beat mech instead of just playing autopilot builds/styles with300apm and good macro, , mech is true S in this RTS game.
I do not care about mech tbh, and i can agree with you that making brood lords against ravens and vikings is a terrible decision. I am just asking for an answer for a simple question: beating turtling mech.
|
On October 11 2013 01:57 Grumbels wrote:
I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map.
I think not, and you don't need that many Ravens, like 30 or so is enough, and the rest Vikings. However I completely fail to see the relevance of this in relation to the thread or the current discussion...or anything else really.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 11 2013 01:57 Grumbels wrote:
I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map.
Let me think. It depends how far in the corner. In theory with perfectly executed chain yanks you can pull out vikings one by one into mass spores and queens. But that is trading 1 viking for 1 viper (at best for zerg). But yeah, more likely draw.
|
United States23455 Posts
On October 11 2013 01:57 Grumbels wrote:
I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map.
I have a question: How the F*ck do you get into that scenario?
|
On October 11 2013 01:58 lolfail9001 wrote:
I do not care about mech tbh, and i can agree with you that making brood lords against ravens and vikings is a terrible decision. I am just asking for an answer for a simple question: beating turtling mech.
Simple question, not so simple answer as that requires that the matchup is played in an entire different way, down to how/when/where you expand, how/when you engage in different maps, what unit compositions you're going to use (as unlike with 4M, you can FORCE certain units out of Terran mech, which makes IMHO for way more interesting games than MMMM parade), what weaknesses you're going to look for and how you're going to exploit them (and how to prepare before hand to properly exploit them)..etc etc.
So I'm sorry, I can't give you a 1 line answer, the game is more complex than that, however if you want, you can drop me a pm and we can talk about this.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 11 2013 02:01 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 01:57 Grumbels wrote:
I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map. I have a question: How the F*ck do you get into that scenario?
Split map on akilon?
|
On October 11 2013 02:03 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 02:01 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 11 2013 01:57 Grumbels wrote:
I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map. I have a question: How the F*ck do you get into that scenario? Split map on akilon?
Oh yeah, the classic Rush to 30Ravens/Vikings into mass CC to the corner of the map into DRAW strategy, very good to use on the ladder against unsuspecting zergs!!! Some say it will be the big thing in next GSL.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
