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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 02:34 MockHamill wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I believe that mech will actually become weaker, not stronger with the patch.
10% more DPS for tanks is almost nothing compared to the massive nerf for window mines. A Tank/Widow mine or Tank/Hellbat/Widow mine combo will actually be weaker post patch compared to the current balance.
Combined upgrades will be useful in the opponent transitions into air, but widow mines were the key unit to combat air transitions, now widow mines will be much worse against air based armies.
People think that the widow mine nerf will nerf bio/mine but it will actually nerf mech just as much, maybe even more.
Maybe if Tanks got 20 or 25% more DPS mech would become viable outside of TvT. As it is I think mech will worse or at the very best, just as weak post patch. Have to agree with you. I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't. 10% faster means the tank will now get 10 shots where it used to get 9. However, how many engagements last long enough for a tank to get 9 or 10 shots anyway? The most a tank will shoot is maybe 4 or 5 times. Therefore, this "buff" doesn't do much. The widow mines, on the other hand, have a 50% radius nerf. That is enough to make a difference. The only thing that helped mech here was the attack upgrade being shared with air, but one has to ask whether true mech consists of vikings/banshees/bcs anyway.
No, 10% faster means that tank may now get a 2 shots where he would do 1, or 10 shots, where it would 10 anyways.
Also, i always thought that main function of widow mines in mech TvT was to severely hurt BCs.
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On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 02:34 MockHamill wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I believe that mech will actually become weaker, not stronger with the patch.
10% more DPS for tanks is almost nothing compared to the massive nerf for window mines. A Tank/Widow mine or Tank/Hellbat/Widow mine combo will actually be weaker post patch compared to the current balance.
Combined upgrades will be useful in the opponent transitions into air, but widow mines were the key unit to combat air transitions, now widow mines will be much worse against air based armies.
People think that the widow mine nerf will nerf bio/mine but it will actually nerf mech just as much, maybe even more.
Maybe if Tanks got 20 or 25% more DPS mech would become viable outside of TvT. As it is I think mech will worse or at the very best, just as weak post patch. Have to agree with you. I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't. 10% faster means the tank will now get 10 shots where it used to get 9. However, how many engagements last long enough for a tank to get 9 or 10 shots anyway? The most a tank will shoot is maybe 4 or 5 times. Therefore, this "buff" doesn't do much. The widow mines, on the other hand, have a 50% radius nerf. That is enough to make a difference. The only thing that helped mech here was the attack upgrade being shared with air, but one has to ask whether true mech consists of vikings/banshees/bcs anyway.
Ironically, smaller battles have the potential to buff Siege Tanks more than longer battles. If a Tank shoots 5 times instead of 4 times, it's a 20% buff. 4 instead of 3 is 25%, 3 instead of 2 is 33%, and 2 instead of 1 is 50%.
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Ironically, smaller battles have the potential buff Siege Tanks more. If a Tank shoots 5 times instead of 4 times, it's a 20% buff. 4 instead of 3 is 25%, 3 instead of 2 is 33%, and 2 instead of 1 is 50%.
I think it is even better, 2 instead of 1 is 100% increase, 3 instead of 2 is 50% increase...etc. etc. So in certain situations it is a very big buff...for tanks having them set up and having sight range may prove to be an actually really big deal of buffing.
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On October 07 2013 02:50 Daeracon wrote:Show nested quote +Ironically, smaller battles have the potential buff Siege Tanks more. If a Tank shoots 5 times instead of 4 times, it's a 20% buff. 4 instead of 3 is 25%, 3 instead of 2 is 33%, and 2 instead of 1 is 50%. I think it is even better, 2 instead of 1 is 100% increase, 3 instead of 2 is 50% increase...etc. etc. So in certain situations it is a very big buff...for tanks having them set up and having sight range may prove to be an actually really big deal of buffing.
Oh right, sorry, I'm not the best at word problems either.
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On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now.
Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
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On October 06 2013 19:22 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 13:48 SHODAN wrote:
on the b.net forums, I posted a bunch of changes I'd love to test for tanks & mechanical units
- attack upgrades from the armory improve cooldown by 5% per level, reducing the reload time of all vehicle & ship weapons. this would scale siege mode attack speed to 3 seconds (+0), 2.85 (+1), 2.7 (+2), 2.55 (+3).
- armor upgrades from the armory reduce the transformation time of all mechanical units by 15% per level (including hellions, vikings, thors & widow mines). this would scale siege mode transformation to 4 seconds (+0), 3.4 (+1), 2.8 (+2), 2.2 (+3). +3 vikings would take 1.65 seconds to land in assault mode. That would be two large changes to upgrade mechanics. There is no chance Blizzard will ever consider this for LotV let alone a patch. Especially if their idea of a mech buff is 10% faster shooting tank and combined upgrades.
they might consider transformation speed as a stand-alone upgrade for the armory. you never know how far Blizz is prepared to tweak core game mechanics. the queen buff was a massive change to creep & production capabilities. the MSC was another radical change to diversify toss tech options. combining vehicle/ship is the most radical change Blizz have ever implemented on upgrades in starcraft. BW/WoL had some tweaks to cost/research time, but that's all. WC3 turned into a radically different game after its expansion. HotS --> LotV could be the same!
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On October 07 2013 04:15 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 19:22 pmp10 wrote:On October 06 2013 13:48 SHODAN wrote:
on the b.net forums, I posted a bunch of changes I'd love to test for tanks & mechanical units
- attack upgrades from the armory improve cooldown by 5% per level, reducing the reload time of all vehicle & ship weapons. this would scale siege mode attack speed to 3 seconds (+0), 2.85 (+1), 2.7 (+2), 2.55 (+3).
- armor upgrades from the armory reduce the transformation time of all mechanical units by 15% per level (including hellions, vikings, thors & widow mines). this would scale siege mode transformation to 4 seconds (+0), 3.4 (+1), 2.8 (+2), 2.2 (+3). +3 vikings would take 1.65 seconds to land in assault mode. That would be two large changes to upgrade mechanics. There is no chance Blizzard will ever consider this for LotV let alone a patch. Especially if their idea of a mech buff is 10% faster shooting tank and combined upgrades. they might consider transformation speed as a stand-alone upgrade for the armory. you never know how far Blizz is prepared to tweak core game mechanics. the queen buff was a massive change to creep & production capabilities. the MSC was another radical change to diversify toss tech options. combining vehicle/ship is the most radical change Blizz have ever implemented on upgrades in starcraft. BW/WoL had some tweaks to cost/research time, but that's all. WC3 turned into a radically different game after its expansion. HotS --> LotV could be the same!
The queen buff was never expected to be a major change and combining upgrades was well tested in the beta.
Blizzard was not even willing to drop hallucination research during WoL and I have no faith that they are even willing to consider any major terran buff.
Mech simply doesn't fit into Blizzards new approach of making things more exciting by making them move faster.
And even if it did - they have no sufficient understanding of it's working to do any better than they had in HotS so far.
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On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On October 08 2013 02:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still. Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
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On October 08 2013 02:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still. Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
That's because mass mine is not a good solution against a opponent capable of rapid tech-switches.
Some widow mines for defence were doable before as they dealt decent splash even when muta flock was unclumped but now their efficiency will be severely reduced.
Since you can never tell at what number muta production stops mech player is forced to guess or commit blindly.
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So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly.
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On October 08 2013 11:56 lowercase wrote:
So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly.
Well, they already made the dark shrine quite cheaper to get in HotS. I would have liked something like the movement buff instead of the costreduction, but I feel like both is overkill in TvP and maybe PvP.
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On October 08 2013 14:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 11:56 lowercase wrote:
So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly. Well, they already made the dark shrine quite cheaper to get in HotS. I would have liked something like the movement buff instead of the costreduction, but I feel like both is overkill in TvP and maybe PvP.
Tired of the solution for everything is to just make it go faster.
That's all they do. Make units faster make upgrades cheaper/free.
There is absolutely no creative or outside the box thinking going on.
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On October 08 2013 14:31 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 14:19 Big J wrote:On October 08 2013 11:56 lowercase wrote:
So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly. Well, they already made the dark shrine quite cheaper to get in HotS. I would have liked something like the movement buff instead of the costreduction, but I feel like both is overkill in TvP and maybe PvP. Tired of the solution for everything is to just make it go faster. That's all they do. Make units faster make upgrades cheaper/free. There is absolutely no creative or outside the box thinking going on.
look where increasing range did in WoL :X
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On October 08 2013 14:31 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 14:19 Big J wrote:On October 08 2013 11:56 lowercase wrote:
So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly. Well, they already made the dark shrine quite cheaper to get in HotS. I would have liked something like the movement buff instead of the costreduction, but I feel like both is overkill in TvP and maybe PvP. Tired of the solution for everything is to just make it go faster. That's all they do. Make units faster make upgrades cheaper/free. There is absolutely no creative or outside the box thinking going on.
The main (realistic) gameplay critique towards the end of WoL was how aggression didn't work. Thank the community for those kinds of buffs.
And well, it's not really true what you say:
Fungal got turned into a projectile so it happens slower.
They buffed ZvZ mutalisk defenses.
They nerfed hellbats, particularily adressing early hellbat drops.
They try to buff tank power, not speed or cost currently.
And for the stuff that they buffed:
The Mutalisk speed change was minor. The Warp Prism speed change was mediocre. The big "faster" changes in HotS come down to the medivac boost and how strategies changed around the new/buffed units.
They are working on stuff that is too extreme, but it seems like there won't be any bigger balance changes for HotS anymore. And I can't blame them, after each time they change something for the sake of gameplay/diversity they have gotten huge amounts of shit from this community, that they should only ever change what's broken and leave everything else useless.
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On October 08 2013 02:28 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 02:15 Big J wrote:On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still. Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas. Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers.
But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway.
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On October 08 2013 17:47 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 02:28 Qikz wrote:On October 08 2013 02:15 Big J wrote:On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still. Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas. Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras. Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers. But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway.
wut?????? Replay of this, I want to see this situation where you can throw away a whole ultralisk army for half a Mech ball and win despite SC2's capped income not giving you any income advantage with full map control.
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On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Out of all the issues mech has I think muta is the most dealable. IMHO (and from testmap + hots beta expirience) turret rings + mines + thors + pdd are still more than enough to deal with muta. The tank buff seems to help vs swarm host, maybe using more defensive planetaries next to your expensions + a couple tanks could actually work now. I guess the only real issue left is getting THE perfect mech build/opener and also having somebody with enough apm to spread tanks and unsiege/move/siege them vs binding cloud.
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On October 08 2013 18:38 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still. Out of all the issues mech has I think muta is the most dealable. IMHO (and from testmap + hots beta expirience) turret rings + mines + thors + pdd are still more than enough to deal with muta. The tank buff seems to help vs swarm host, maybe using more defensive planetaries next to your expensions + a couple tanks could actually work now. I guess the only real issue left is getting THE perfect mech build/opener and also having somebody with enough apm to spread tanks and unsiege/move/siege them vs binding cloud.
I agree, Viper timings to hit you just before you are abel to get any critical mass of Tank/Thor/Raven/Something is the real issue here. This + correct units ratio.. Slowly taking and securing bases is not problematic. Broodlord/Infestor is dealth with Ravens, Ultras are relatively easy to stop, Mutas are very gimmicky.. So Hydra/Roach/Viper timings + aggresive play (thinking roach drops/nydus) is the main issue.
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On October 08 2013 18:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 17:47 Sissors wrote:On October 08 2013 02:28 Qikz wrote:On October 08 2013 02:15 Big J wrote:On October 07 2013 03:28 pmp10 wrote:On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still. Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas. Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras. Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers. But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway. wut?????? Replay of this, I want to see this situation where you can throw away a whole ultralisk army for half a Mech ball and win despite SC2's capped income not giving you any income advantage with full map control.
It happens. Maybe not with such numbers, but it really is win for Zerg to cut like 1/3 of upgraded mech army in late-late game scenario while losing way more in the same time. You don't want to go down just to drones obviously, but I have been in such scenarios. Depends on many factory, bases, bank, etc..
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