We’ve just published a new Balance Test Map to the StarCraft II Custom Games list titled "Bel’Shir Vestige LE (2.0.11 Balance v1.0)". This time, we're testing a few balance tweaks across all three races in Heart of the Swarm multiplayer. During this testing phase, please keep in mind that none of the changes listed below are final. Our plan is to first consider each change, and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Let's have a look at what you'll be testing:
The speed changes are something we’ve tried in the past and we believe this is a better direction than a straight cost reduction for the unit. The main reason is that we’d like the difference between someone who’s amazing with Oracle micro to be able to keep them alive the whole game to get the most out of them, whereas lesser skilled players won’t get as much out of this change. Not only that, this direction is a smaller buff to the all in case and/or early game use cases compared to the previously proposed 50 gas cost reduction.
Revelation right now is the main late game ability for Oracles, meaning if it’s a bit easier to use, we’d see a lot more Oracle usage in the late game as well.
We've been looking at this for a long time now, and it feels like a solid step in the right direction.
Siege tank attack period decreased
Bio play may be more interesting with the Widow Mine change and this buff. Not only that, we believe Terran mech armies can be a lot more viable because faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters.
Widow mine splash radius decreased
We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone.
We just don’t see Tunneling Claws coming into play much. There’s some really cool micro potential with burrow-moving Roaches, and we'd like to see how this goes in a test map.
Once again, feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us at this time. We kindly ask that you spend some time playing games on the test map before offering your thoughts on the changes listed above.
As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that we’re trying out these changes to see how they affect current gameplay, and none of them are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.
They seem very stuck on the idea of harassment being the issue with the game and relying on that to solve the issue of death balls.
I wish they would look at some of the real issues. These changes are nice, but ultimately don't solve anything and won't hardly move the meta for any race enough.
Do people actually play these test maps? What kind of conclusions can be drawn from some metal league players just fooling around with the changed units?
The only way I could see these test maps be worth it would be if they actually added an unranked matchmaking option to play on this, that might encourage more people to do so. Alternatively just hire a korean pro house team to grind the map for a week and see what they come up with.
On October 03 2013 12:22 geokilla wrote: TvT. Mech only.
Anyone else notice this for the widow mine? It says testing is for 1.75 to 1.25 but in the spoiler, it says 1.75 to 1. Guessing the 1 is wrong in the spoiler lol.
On October 03 2013 11:50 mishimaBeef wrote: I wish he would clarify on 'some really cool micro potential'.
Watched GSL recently? I think it was life with some cool burrow tricks.
guessing you mean the games with trust? It was ok the first time but not that cool since all he did was unburrow, target a stalker then burrow back lol.
Dislike ship/vehicle weapon combo and oracle speed, , bit neutral on the roach burrow speed, but otherwise I'm ok with the rest across the board.
Only reason I'm neutral with the roach thing is that it feels like Blizzards answer seems to be to just keep making things walk faster and faster. I'd prefer different approaches. I like the slow roach crawl hehe
On October 03 2013 12:30 BigFan wrote: Anyone else notice this for the widow mine? It says testing is for 1.75 to 1.25 but in the spoiler, it says 1.75 to 1. Guessing the 1 is wrong in the spoiler lol.
On October 03 2013 11:50 mishimaBeef wrote: I wish he would clarify on 'some really cool micro potential'.
Watched GSL recently? I think it was life with some cool burrow tricks.
guessing you mean the games with trust? It was ok the first time but not that cool since all he did was unburrow, target a stalker then burrow back lol.
I was sure I also saw burrow movement.
/edit
Regardless getting tunneling claws would be that much more powerful.
On October 03 2013 12:30 BigFan wrote: Anyone else notice this for the widow mine? It says testing is for 1.75 to 1.25 but in the spoiler, it says 1.75 to 1. Guessing the 1 is wrong in the spoiler lol.
On October 03 2013 11:50 mishimaBeef wrote: I wish he would clarify on 'some really cool micro potential'.
Watched GSL recently? I think it was life with some cool burrow tricks.
guessing you mean the games with trust? It was ok the first time but not that cool since all he did was unburrow, target a stalker then burrow back lol.
I dunno why they won't add +shield damage to tanks.
The vehicle and ship upgrades merger shows a terrible lack of understanding for how their own game works, and will kill whatever future bio and marine/tank play has in TvT.
I really wish they'd buff Ravens and also get rid of the stupid fizzle bullshit with seeker missiles by letting them chase units again. The biggest issue with Terran is that their army is too bottom-heavy, so once you have your m's and your techlab upgrades, you've more-or-less maxed out your army strength. My guess is that, if the mine nerf weakens their midgame too much, Terrans will have virtually nothing left to work with in the late-game. Ravens aren't consistent enough, and Battlecruisers melt to corruptors.
Also, the mine splash reduction is really noticeable, but doesn't hurt the Terran at all if their opponent goes up to Hive tech. That single-target damage is still ridiculous @_@
Overall very interesting changes. I just hope that this doesn't mean an excessive amount of Oracle proxies and, even more importantly, that the Widow Mine is lost entirely - like the Hellbat.
On October 03 2013 12:25 Bagi wrote: Do people actually play these test maps? What kind of conclusions can be drawn from some metal league players just fooling around with the changed units?
The only way I could see these test maps be worth it would be if they actually added an unranked matchmaking option to play on this, that might encourage more people to do so. Alternatively just hire a korean pro house team to grind the map for a week and see what they come up with.
On October 03 2013 13:41 Ctesias wrote: Overall very interesting changes. I just hope that this doesn't mean an excessive amount of Oracle proxies and, even more importantly, that the Widow Mine is lost entirely - like the Hellbat.
On October 03 2013 12:51 bittman wrote: Dislike ship/vehicle weapon combo and oracle speed, , bit neutral on the roach burrow speed, but otherwise I'm ok with the rest across the board.
Only reason I'm neutral with the roach thing is that it feels like Blizzards answer seems to be to just keep making things walk faster and faster. I'd prefer different approaches. I like the slow roach crawl hehe
Soon or later the game will have things faster than speedlings on creep lol
Just on the top of my head they could potentially work on 1) Minimising the hard counters so losses are less dependent on compositional errors (and shutting down whole tech tress). 2) Making the often forgotten abilities in the game useful, e.g. binding cloud vs bio balls.. or servo transformations.. 3) Making 50% of the units in the game relevant again and this means mech needs to be viable (this means we will see carriers for once!!!) 4) Stop making things faster and instead look at the core issues of the unit and tweak their roles. Faster oracles only mean, faster swoop ins to kill workers early game and Blizzard wants oracles to literally become a non-cloaked flying observer... what if they had another role where they could be a short ranged AOE AtA capabilities (that use energy) for mid game mutas or the like? 5) I think its fair to say that they should look at the coin-flippy nature of spellcasters e.g. feedback vs emps that dictate the outcome so much.
Imagine if in TvP, instead of snipe/emp vs feedbacks between ghosts vs HTs, what if it was storms vs lockdowns instead? Sure the colossi is lockdowned, but moving into the protoss army could mean being stormed. It sort of becomes a niche and maybe its better to have more core units than massing spell casters that are now not dealing the damage but just supplementing the army..
6) More micro potential e.g. "move and shoot" or "glide and shoot" mechanic so the mutaball becomes much more effective vs pure marines if controlled properly or even a group of hellions vs stimmed marines. 7) Assess the risk to reward ratio and tweak it to make sense e.g. turbo-vacs. There should be a con to using turbo boosts like it uses medivac energy..
Just so much potential untapped yet the wrong things are looked into.. like proposing that idea of making very very fast DTs,,
Played a few TvZs with a buddy, we just played standard games, biomine vs muta b/ling. I lost them all, but I would have anyway even without the nerf because he's just flatout quite a bit better than me. But even though, I didn't feel a big difference, he said he felt it a few times. It IS a sizeable nerf and pro players will def see a big change I'm sure. But myself, I don't really mind
On October 03 2013 13:41 Ctesias wrote: Overall very interesting changes. I just hope that this doesn't mean an excessive amount of Oracle proxies and, even more importantly, that the Widow Mine is lost entirely - like the Hellbat.
Pretty confident that will be the case. Although if it throws up some different strategies I guess I will be ok with it, even if terran gets crushed.
On October 03 2013 12:25 Bagi wrote: Do people actually play these test maps? What kind of conclusions can be drawn from some metal league players just fooling around with the changed units?
The only conclusion that matters is if the changes are liked. This is effectively a glorified opinion poll. Balance at pro level is irrelevant here.
On October 03 2013 13:41 PineapplePizza wrote: I dunno why they won't add +shield damage to tanks.
If there is not already there should be a chat channel for this map so people can find the matchup they want with the skill level they want ex: diam T looking for diam Z? Maybe someone could make a thread that introduces the channel. People can post about actual games they played on map (as opposed to theory-crafting) and post replays and concerns and such... I'd do it but im too lazy We could call it "balance test results" or something. Just a thought
On October 03 2013 16:21 Doc Brawler wrote: If there is not already there should be a chat channel for this map so people can find the matchup they want with the skill level they want ex: diam T looking for diam Z? Maybe someone could make a thread that introduces the channel. People can post about actual games they played on map (as opposed to theory-crafting) and post replays and concerns and such... I'd do it but im too lazy We could call it "balance test results" or something. Just a thought
Yeah! That would be nice. Additional game mode, with his own chat channels and additional menu with customizable search options (opponent skill level, race, etc). AND my Greatest suggestion: if u blizzard do not wanna let this game die, just add as much achievements and rewards as u can. It always fun tor recieve something. And i think it could help to bring many people back. Make them to be something, that can help newcomers to enjoy this game, i mean 2 learn game mechanics.
The main problem in TvZ right now is that the OPness of mines is counter balanced by the OPness of mutas. With the overseer patch we saw a slight balancing between those two going in favor of Z but it can still evolve in either ways.
What really blow my mind is that blizzard seriously think that they can promote the use of tanks in TvZ against the actual mass mutas meta. As mutas are a direct counter of the siege tank I really don't see this work out at all for BIO+ support play. It will definitively help mech players tough.
I really want to see something done about mutas at the same time as for widow mine or we might just jump from only 4M to only mech in TvZ.
As they done the spore crawler patch to end the mass mutas war in ZvZ, buffing turrets via a late game upgrade doing splash dmg could really change the endgame where basically the flock of 30-35 mutas can move anywhere uncontested as we saw in many pro games of the last month. It's just an idea , maybe it's too OP don't know.
Right now, I play zerg and terran at a diamond level and in the balance test map I rolled on every terran that went bio+Tank mine. When i went terran i was defeated also by the mass muta thing.
This "more diversity" patch is just a fible attempt to cover up fundamental flaws of the game. I'm not sure why they're afraid of making big changes. Starcraft isn't in good spot right now and nothing major to lose if you make a bad change (which is highly unlikely).
I think terran will have to mix in siege tanks now and not depend on widow mines as much, this will probably break the parade push. Siege tank pushes are probably slower and more vulnerable to mutalisks, forcing you to invest in missile turrets, mines or even thors. Presumably terran can still be threatening though, especially with the new siege tank, and they can use more positional play to set up good drops even with mutalisks around. And they can invest in mech upgrades for the thor and siege tank to set-up a transition into raven & battlecruiser. I guess it will be good on maps like Akilon, but not on whirlwind. Or maybe pure mech will be more viable now, I don't know.
It's always easy to look at a patch and see what it breaks, the parade push in this case, but it doesn't tell you the full story about how the game will play out. My gut feeling would say that mass mutalisk will be impossible to stop, but I don't know.
I am liking the tank change after 5 games or so. But I feel it could be buffed in another way. increasing the attack speed makes each of the shots FEEL weaker.
also unrelated to this patch, I had been thinking why not add an animation that shows forcefields are about to disappear. a few clarification would help other race and toss himself to make better decision
On October 03 2013 13:41 PineapplePizza wrote: I dunno why they won't add +shield damage to tanks.
Tanks already do extra damage to armored.[/QUOTE] He means extra damage to protoss plasma shields, just like the widowmine does. Shield is not the same as armor. Tanks are really crappy vs protoss, I completely agree that tanks should do extra vs plasma shields. This extra damage should also apply to immortals, which is probably one of the hardest of hard counters in the game.
Currently it takes a tank 15 shots to kill an immortal. Tanks have 3 second fire rate. That means it takes 60 seconds for a tank to kill one immortal. When you look at it like that, it's ridiculous
Can't wait to see the pros play these changes, and to be fair to Blizzard here, most of these changes are aimed at the top level games which is even better. Hoping to see more tanks and less mines!
Whilst mines can be extremely strong, they are wildly inconsistent in their usefulness. TvZ has become stale over the past couple of months but this is a significant nerf to an already inconistent unit. I'm not sure how useful buffed tanks will be in the place of the current WM.
On October 03 2013 16:53 rice_devOurer wrote: with these changes, i can only see widowmines as portable turrets that can protect tanks.
edit- in TvZ or course.
That would not actually be bad. Widow Mines cost 75/25, for them to be a core unit is just so, so silly. For what they cost they fill way too many roles and do way too much damage. So Blizzard putting it back to a rather supporting unit is a-okay imho.
If you want the mine to stay what it is now, you'd have to hugely increase it's cost. Because right now, it's as expensive as a roach and does 5x times of what the roach is capable of.
On October 03 2013 13:41 PineapplePizza wrote: I dunno why they won't add +shield damage to tanks.
Tanks already do extra damage to armored.
He means extra damage to protoss plasma shields, just like the widowmine does. Shield is not the same as armor. Tanks are really crappy vs protoss, I completely agree that tanks should do extra vs plasma shields. This extra damage should also apply to immortals, which is probably one of the hardest of hard counters in the game.
I get that but you only get one damage bonus per unit. Like it or not the '+armored' is important in all 3 match-ups whereas '+shields' would only work in one. That's a lot of tank interactions you could be breaking for the sake of a buff that may not even do much.
Actual it is more that tanks do less damage vs non-armored. Yes a matter of how you read it, but it was introduced as a large nerf to siege tanks.
If you want the mine to stay what it is now, you'd have to hugely increase it's cost. Because right now, it's as expensive as a roach and does 5x times of what the roach is capable of.
Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
I am all for having siege tanks replace widow mines, but in the current meta that simply is not realistic. There is a reason that despite the hellbat and free siege upgrade terrans quickly stopped using siege tanks in HotS, zergs got so many hardcounters to siege tank play it simply is not on par with widow mines. That isn't simply because widow mines would be horribly OP, but because siege tanks are crap. Widow mines as mobile turrets? Sure, after you make them one supply. But if I place 3 WMs per siege tank they still die to mutas (two of the WMs probably sniped without firing), and I don't have enough siege tanks to have them actually useful, and I am better of with WMs anyway. Add a few siege tanks to your army and it becomes alot WORSE. Yes I said it, more units = worse army. Simply because you give up all your mobility and the option to keep rallying units forward.
If they want siege tanks useful, what I think needs to change (maybe not all, but in general): Thors + damage vs air (at least mutas). Add missile turret splash damage upgrade from WoL campaign.
- OR - Really nerf mutalisks.
Change blinding cloud to larger area, but only something like -5 range.
Then we still got issues with ultras and swarmhosts, but that would be a good place to start.
On October 03 2013 13:41 PineapplePizza wrote: I dunno why they won't add +shield damage to tanks.
Tanks already do extra damage to armored.
He means extra damage to protoss plasma shields, just like the widowmine does. Shield is not the same as armor. Tanks are really crappy vs protoss, I completely agree that tanks should do extra vs plasma shields. This extra damage should also apply to immortals, which is probably one of the hardest of hard counters in the game.
I get that but you only get one damage bonus per unit. Like it or not the '+armored' is important in all 3 match-ups whereas '+shields' would only work in one. That's a lot of tank interactions you could be breaking for the sake of a buff that may not even do much.
You can add more than one type of bonus damage to units. You can also add bonus damage to shields, life, or energy.
You would need a command card icon to show that the unit does, in fact, deal bonus damage to shields.
Great suggestions overall!! Only scepticism I have is if this ends up making mech or sky terran more viable. I really hate mech. It's not fun to watch, not fun to play against, and it doesn't even require nearly the same kind of mechanics. You'd have to fundamentally change how mech is played to make it even remotely interesting in competitive SC2.
well you save 525/525 now, so there is some money at least for the infrastructure to go mech and air, but well, wether the composition works is another matter entirely...
on the other hand, congratulations blizzard, medivacboost is now the only new thing in hots! you deleted the warhound, you drilled, err nerfed the widowmine INTO THE GROUND, and got rid of the early to midgame power of hellbats, what a lategame unit to look forward to!
now now, not all is bad, the most easily countered unit in sc2, at least for protoss and zerg, namely the siegetank, received a glorious 10% atkspd buff!
a job well done, now finally i can count the units worth building with one hand!
I am all for having siege tanks replace widow mines, but in the current meta that simply is not realistic. There is a reason that despite the hellbat and free siege upgrade terrans quickly stopped using siege tanks in HotS, zergs got so many hardcounters to siege tank play it simply is not on par with widow mines. That isn't simply because widow mines would be horribly OP, but because siege tanks are crap. Widow mines as mobile turrets? Sure, after you make them one supply. But if I place 3 WMs per siege tank they still die to mutas (two of the WMs probably sniped without firing), and I don't have enough siege tanks to have them actually useful, and I am better of with WMs anyway. Add a few siege tanks to your army and it becomes alot WORSE. Yes I said it, more units = worse army. Simply because you give up all your mobility and the option to keep rallying units forward.
Mixing WM and tanks makes you have not enough of either of them. Tanks has been proven to be effective only in a consistent number like 5-6. In Wol we saw production from 2 factory for tanks to have consistently a good amount of tanks. So if we follow the logic of blizzard we should have something like 2 factory for tanks 1 for WM with reactor, going for tank attack upgrade at the same time and bio upgrades + medivacs to heal the bio army. In bio mine strat i always feel short of gas until the lategame when you start banking because you don't upgrade anymore. I really don't see how we can afford so much stuff with the amount of gas we mine from 3 bases.
On October 03 2013 18:09 PineapplePizza wrote: You would need a command card icon to show that the unit does, in fact, deal bonus damage to shields.
You don't even need that. In the Brood War remake, we have three different lines appearing when you move over the weapon, standard, vs medium and vs small. The WoL void ray had a command card notification vs massive, but that was because charge, non-charged, armored, light and massive made like ten different cases depending on what you targeted.
The editor makes it possible to add a bonus (positive or negative), multiplicative coefficient, or both for each subtype, with a further bonus and coefficient in case of shields. I don't know exactly how things work out mathematically, but the "only one bonus per unit" is in the game for the sake of clarity, not because of a technical limitation.
On October 03 2013 18:22 Naphal wrote: well you save 525/525 now, so there is some money at least for the infrastructure to go mech and air, but well, wether the composition works is another matter entirely...
on the other hand, congratulations blizzard, medivacboost is now the only new thing in hots! you deleted the warhound, you drilled, err nerfed the widowmine INTO THE GROUND, and got rid of the early to midgame power of hellbats, what a lategame unit to look forward to!
now now, not all is bad, the most easily countered unit in sc2, at least for protoss and zerg, namely the siegetank, received a glorious 10% atkspd buff!
a job well done, now finally i can count the units worth building with one hand!
Wow, nobody sees that this buffs/nerfs especially weaken protoss..
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more, that means that lategame mec armies (if the terran gets to it, its not easy, but IF) are even stronger overall, because of the quicker attack. With Ghosts in a mec army, which shoots quicker.. Horror :'(
Roach burrow-movement is a hell for protoss in midgame, I guess we will see some sweet 12 minute roach maxout burrowmovement timings... Which is now already not easy to hold, now they can negate many forcefields easily and just close the distance without too many loses..
The oracle buff isn't something really helpful, I mean there is no doubt that oracles are gimmicky and yet designed to do early dmg and if not you may use them for revelation and that's it. The buffs don't give them any mid- or lategamefocussed buffs, they stay the gimmicky glascannon they are.
I'm glad they try to fix TvZ finally, it was a pain in the ass to watch it in the last time.. But still, I think the main problem is the 3/3 issue, but maybe the metagame will switch or smth.
About the Ship and Ground upgrades put together... I actually hate it, TvT will just be mec now, because a bio player will never win in the lategame because of the extrem upgradelead the mec player will get. TvZ will be ugly too, 3/3 vikings vs a zerg in the 20 minute, while the Zerg is just getting his first air upgrades for their corrupter. So Air switches will be very easy in longer termed macro games. And the air fights will always be in the terran's favour if he went for mec. So we are going to see diehard timings of the zerg to try to end the game before the terran will switch to air. Btw. Vipers will die more easily now :D
Overall I just feel like they try to fix the game on the wrong places..
On October 03 2013 18:38 SalvationII wrote: Wow, nobody sees that this buffs/nerfs especially weaken protoss..
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more, that means that lategame mec armies (if the terran gets to it, its not easy, but IF) are even stronger overall, because of the quicker attack. With Ghosts in a mec army, which shoots quicker.. Horror :'(
Tanks softcountering immortals? Lol. Immortals still hardcounter tanks. And even stronger lategame mech army? Toss should have no problem countering a lategame mech army.
TvZ will be ugly too, 3/3 vikings vs a zerg in the 20 minute, while the Zerg is just getting his first air upgrades for their corrupter. So Air switches will be very easy in longer termed macro games. And the air fights will always be in the terran's favour if he went for mec. So we are going to see diehard timings of the zerg to try to end the game before the terran will switch to air. Btw. Vipers will die more easily now :D
Still not before they cast blinding cloud and the mech player loses.
And yeah when going mech and losing horribly you have better vikings. But vikings are still fairly bad against ultras (see also the HotS trailer), and a zerg can switch to air very fast.
Oracle speed: BAD idea. People cry about medivacs and now oracles, these things that 2shot workers and small light units, become as fast as mutas?
Terran mech upgrade merge: TvT only change again. D. Kim seems to have absolutely no idea, what his changes will do in what matchup. The Banshee change was of the same kind. These changes only shake up TvT. Will make it for Bio/(Tank) players very hard to transition into Sky Terran (against mech).
Siege Tank attack speed buff: "faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters. " You wanted another proof of D.Kim´s lack of understanding of SC2? Here you have it, because this is plain wrong! This change makes Tanks way more better against things, they are already good against, while not changing anything against things they are bad.
Widow mine splash nerf: The balance change needed to send Terrans back to WoL. Here you have it. With the upgrade merge, you will still see those units in TvT for sure, because mech will be much stronger there because of the other 2 changes. But don´t expect WM or Hellbats in any non-mirror.
Roach burrow speed buff: Good change. Won´t break anything I guess? And will create some opportunities for zerg players to show some skill!
On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote: Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ?
Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on...
A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac.
On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote: Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ?
Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on...
A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac.
same goes for banelings. That´s what you expect to get with those one shot wonders.
On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote: Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ?
Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on...
A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac.
same goes for banelings. That´s what you expect to get with those one shot wonders.
Nuking my post because i'm not sure i understood you. So my post could be pointless
On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote: Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ?
Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on...
A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac.
same goes for banelings. That´s what you expect to get with those one shot wonders.
banelings can be trade efficiently. as long as the mines kill off one baneling, it has pretty much paid for the resources
The Oracle buff will lead to even more allins in PvT. It's already frustrating how many Allins Protoss has in this mu. It's easy to execute and why should u play long games when you can end it fast?
On October 03 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote: Such as taking out all your own medivacs? If it did 5 times of what a roach did for the same price it would be incredibly OP. No it wouldn't mean you could argue if they are a bit too strong, it would mean every terran walked over any other race. That clearly isn't happening.
Oh come on your are exagerating... Taking your own medivac ? How many times did it happens and how many times did the mines kill the entire zerg army ?
Not dissing your other points but... Don't exagerate. It does 5times what a roach can do. I agree that the comparison is not really well thought because it's a really differnt unit but come on...
A mine kill more ling/bane/muta that it kills your own marines/medivac.
same goes for banelings. That´s what you expect to get with those one shot wonders.
banelings can be trade efficiently. as long as the mines kill off one baneling, it has pretty much paid for the resources
and this is why mines also kill parts of the terran army. because this way, they can be very inefficiant for you, when they kill 2 lings and 8 marines Can´t happen with banelings or?
to explain the comparison between banelings and widow mines a bit more: Both units are similar in the fact, that they are one shot high AoE damage units. Banelings are more safe doing that: They have no friendly fire and you have a guaranteed detonate, even if they get killed. They pay this safety with utility: no recharge (well they die while attacking), no anti air. Widow mines offer more possible durability and anti Air. But you pay this with the danger of friendly fire and not getting a single shot out, when they are killed quickly.
I do NOT want to say, that banelings are OP. I want to show, that it is as pointless to whine about widow mines as it is to whine about banelings.
How can so many people approve on combining the mech and air upgrades? Biggest joke so far from blizzard, they "think" its a step in the right direction...simply playing your own game would tell you that combining the upgrades is foolish. Zerg cannot kill terran air in a fight.
On October 03 2013 18:22 Naphal wrote: rr nerfed the widowmine INTO THE GROUND,
Well since someone complained that his widow mines are killing his own medivacs. This is now not the case anymore, so I guess it's a buff?
But seriously, you guys are having such opposed opinions without even talking about things people offer. You only see 10% atk speed buff from siege tank, others see siegetanks being 10% more viable now which is still fine. There was a reddit post showing that it actually makes a difference against protoss that is quite noticeable.
If anything, you guys should PLAY first, THEN judge. Because I think most of you just see the proposed changes and say "WELL FUCK THIS GUYS YOU SUCK!"
It actually got harder to control oracles... I sent it to my opponent's base, looked away and - wtf it's already at his base, I don't have time to macro, PANIC
If anything, you guys should PLAY first, THEN judge. Because I think most of you just see the proposed changes and say "WELL FUCK THIS GUYS YOU SUCK!" Way to bring constructive criticism, guys.
Just listen to this guy - he knows something u dont...
If anything, you guys should PLAY first, THEN judge. Because I think most of you just see the proposed changes and say "WELL FUCK THIS GUYS YOU SUCK!" Way to bring constructive criticism, guys.
Just listen to this guy - he knows something u dont...
yeah he knows how to mix up different posts and add insults where none were in the first place!
On October 03 2013 19:31 Ouija wrote: How can so many people approve on combining the mech and air upgrades? Biggest joke so far from blizzard, they "think" its a step in the right direction...simply playing your own game would tell you that combining the upgrades is foolish. Zerg cannot kill terran air in a fight.
Combined upgrades were OP only when Warhounds and 4x Hellbat w/o blue flame in a medivac were around. Seeing as how neither of those problems exist any more it actually is a good step in the right direction. Still think a few more buffs to the tank would be nicer though.
And please you deserve to lose if you let T manage to get so many air units up.
If anything, you guys should PLAY first, THEN judge. Because I think most of you just see the proposed changes and say "WELL FUCK THIS GUYS YOU SUCK!" Way to bring constructive criticism, guys.
Just listen to this guy - he knows something u dont...
yeah he knows how to mix up different posts and add insults where none were in the first place!
He just has his own way of saying that people are narrow-minded, which is true, people are very very narrow-minded.
If anything, you guys should PLAY first, THEN judge. Because I think most of you just see the proposed changes and say "WELL FUCK THIS GUYS YOU SUCK!" Way to bring constructive criticism, guys.
Just listen to this guy - he knows something u dont...
yeah he knows how to mix up different posts and add insults where none were in the first place!
He just has his own way of saying that people are narrow-minded, which is true, people are very very narrow-minded.
i see another unit made worthless, and i see slight buffs to things that were not viable in WoL and get even harder destroyed in HotS, i call that me being realistic, not narrowminded, and any positive expectation is delusional, not openminded.
On October 03 2013 18:38 SalvationII wrote: Wow, nobody sees that this buffs/nerfs especially weaken protoss..
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more
one of the most ridiculous statements and most revealing of a new player i've seen in a long time
Perhaps than you should educate the new player instead of shutting him down? The malice and superiority complex in you post is sickening. Just because the guy is defending Protoss is no reason to be dismissive and mean to him.
If anything, you guys should PLAY first, THEN judge. Because I think most of you just see the proposed changes and say "WELL FUCK THIS GUYS YOU SUCK!" Way to bring constructive criticism, guys.
Just listen to this guy - he knows something u dont...
yeah he knows how to mix up different posts and add insults where none were in the first place!
He just has his own way of saying that people are narrow-minded, which is true, people are very very narrow-minded.
i see another unit made worthless, and i see slight buffs to things that were not viable in WoL and get even harder destroyed in HotS, i call that me being realistic, not narrowminded, and any positive expectation is delusional, not openminded.
I've never said that you are narrow-minded, and as far as I saw, he didn't point finger on you either, he is generalizing, that is true, but he is mostly right, people tend to scream and whine a lot before they even test things out.
On October 03 2013 18:38 SalvationII wrote: Wow, nobody sees that this buffs/nerfs especially weaken protoss..
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more, that means that lategame mec armies (if the terran gets to it, its not easy, but IF) are even stronger overall, because of the quicker attack. With Ghosts in a mec army, which shoots quicker.. Horror :'(
Tanks softcountering immortals? Lol. Immortals still hardcounter tanks. And even stronger lategame mech army? Toss should have no problem countering a lategame mech army.
TvZ will be ugly too, 3/3 vikings vs a zerg in the 20 minute, while the Zerg is just getting his first air upgrades for their corrupter. So Air switches will be very easy in longer termed macro games. And the air fights will always be in the terran's favour if he went for mec. So we are going to see diehard timings of the zerg to try to end the game before the terran will switch to air. Btw. Vipers will die more easily now :D
Still not before they cast blinding cloud and the mech player loses.
And yeah when going mech and losing horribly you have better vikings. But vikings are still fairly bad against ultras (see also the HotS trailer), and a zerg can switch to air very fast.
On October 03 2013 11:50 mishimaBeef wrote: I wish he would clarify on 'some really cool micro potential'.
Watch effort vs flash from the mlg vs proleague invitational Burrow movement has soooo much potentiel, from basically blink microing your roaches (which would probably take like 400 apm but still) to getting away from ffs similiar to how t can pick up in medivacs or even sneaking small roach hitsquads into bases while they are burrowed and getting out. Roach burrowed movement has sooo much potential.
We gotta use tanks with mines together? GREAT....... they added more micro for Terran T_T now you gotta siege/unsiege + burrow/unburrow your units everytime u think your opponent is threatning to attack T_T. Way to kill Terrans off. This is the last thing we needed micro wise.
And not to mention faster tanks will lead to mech-only TvTs which sucks for bio players like myself.
This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
If they want to make the oracle a longterm harass unit they should nerf it's potential for getting quick wins. Straight up buffing it is just a bad idea.
Having combined upgrades for terran is also a bad idea especially in tvt where the mech player will then always have the better air upgrades.
The siege tank buff does not make up for the mine nerf at all. Siege tanks don't do enough damage and it doesn't make enough of a difference that they do hit a bit faster.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
If anything, you guys should PLAY first, THEN judge. Because I think most of you just see the proposed changes and say "WELL FUCK THIS GUYS YOU SUCK!" Way to bring constructive criticism, guys.
Just listen to this guy - he knows something u dont...
yeah he knows how to mix up different posts and add insults where none were in the first place!
The word "Guys" and the phrase "You guys" should show you that I wasn't referring to the quote anymore. Or do you think I talk to you when I say "You guys"?!
I just see people say the changes are bad without even playing ONE GAME. That is NOT what this map was made for. It's "Call to action", not "Call to whine".
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
On October 03 2013 18:55 TeeTS wrote: Oracle speed: BAD idea. People cry about medivacs and now oracles, these things that 2shot workers and small light units, become as fast as mutas?
Terran mech upgrade merge: TvT only change again. D. Kim seems to have absolutely no idea, what his changes will do in what matchup. The Banshee change was of the same kind. These changes only shake up TvT. Will make it for Bio/(Tank) players very hard to transition into Sky Terran (against mech).
Siege Tank attack speed buff: "faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters. " You wanted another proof of D.Kim´s lack of understanding of SC2? Here you have it, because this is plain wrong! This change makes Tanks way more better against things, they are already good against, while not changing anything against things they are bad.
Widow mine splash nerf: The balance change needed to send Terrans back to WoL. Here you have it. With the upgrade merge, you will still see those units in TvT for sure, because mech will be much stronger there because of the other 2 changes. But don´t expect WM or Hellbats in any non-mirror.
Roach burrow speed buff: Good change. Won´t break anything I guess? And will create some opportunities for zerg players to show some skill!
Oracle speed IS good idea: MOAR speed, MOAR skill. Everyone complains that SC2 is too easy, well i guess now it is not, if everything is er2482erarweryiwerhavfiawdk.filawegf fast. Terran mech upgrade: do not be so sure. ForGG may actually like it, because well. Hellbats and vikings share fucking upgrades in all regards. Siege tank attack speed buff: Should i remind you, that the best way to get rid of immortal shield is to attack it faster or remove it completely? DK chose the thing he could do without screwing up the game before expansion comes. WM nerf... Won't comment on it as it is the thing that actually needs throughout testing the most of all those. Roach burrow speed buff is just a quality-of-life buff, because i forgot when last time i have seen roaches with tunnelling claws. In that soulkey vs fantasy game at SPL i believe. But then again, it is my IMO and i believe that all those numbers do need to have some slight tweaks (for one, i think widow mine range should be around 1.5, not 1.75 or 1.25).
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
To be honest, the most boring thing about MMMM and Bio/Tank/WM possible is the fact that it works as 1 big push without multitasking madness in most(but obviously not all) cases. In fact, i start to feel like PvZ against SwarmHost player involves more multitask from both sides, than current TvZ.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
To be honest, the most boring thing about MMMM and Bio/Tank/WM possible is the fact that it works as 1 big push without multitasking madness in most(but obviously not all) cases. In fact, i start to feel like PvZ against SwarmHost player involves more multitask from both sides, than current TvZ.
Yeah, I'd agree on that. The multitasking of smaller battles around only happens in my TvZ games when everything just breaks down and nothing ever goes right.
On October 03 2013 18:55 TeeTS wrote: Oracle speed: BAD idea. People cry about medivacs and now oracles, these things that 2shot workers and small light units, become as fast as mutas?
Terran mech upgrade merge: TvT only change again. D. Kim seems to have absolutely no idea, what his changes will do in what matchup. The Banshee change was of the same kind. These changes only shake up TvT. Will make it for Bio/(Tank) players very hard to transition into Sky Terran (against mech).
Siege Tank attack speed buff: "faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters. " You wanted another proof of D.Kim´s lack of understanding of SC2? Here you have it, because this is plain wrong! This change makes Tanks way more better against things, they are already good against, while not changing anything against things they are bad.
Widow mine splash nerf: The balance change needed to send Terrans back to WoL. Here you have it. With the upgrade merge, you will still see those units in TvT for sure, because mech will be much stronger there because of the other 2 changes. But don´t expect WM or Hellbats in any non-mirror.
Roach burrow speed buff: Good change. Won´t break anything I guess? And will create some opportunities for zerg players to show some skill!
Oracle speed IS good idea: MOAR speed, MOAR skill. Everyone complains that SC2 is too easy, well i guess now it is not, if everything is er2482erarweryiwerhavfiawdk.filawegf fast. Terran mech upgrade: do not be so sure. ForGG may actually like it, because well. Hellbats and vikings share fucking upgrades in all regards. Siege tank attack speed buff: Should i remind you, that the best way to get rid of immortal shield is to attack it faster or remove it completely? DK chose the thing he could do without screwing up the game before expansion comes. WM nerf... Won't comment on it as it is the thing that actually needs throughout testing the most of all those. Roach burrow speed buff is just a quality-of-life buff, because i forgot when last time i have seen roaches with tunnelling claws. In that soulkey vs fantasy game at SPL i believe. But then again, it is my IMO and i believe that all those numbers do need to have some slight tweaks (for one, i think widow mine range should be around 1.5, not 1.75 or 1.25).
"everyone complains that SC2 is too easy" Yeah, everygame we play and watch is executed perfectly. We don´t see any mechanical mistakes made by pros and this prooves, that SC2 is too easy.... oh wait! We don´t need free harassment units. If you don´t risk anything while harassing, it´s just a complete design fail. medivac speed goes into the same direction, but at least, terran loses the units they drop from time to time (sometimes even the medivacs, since boost doesn´t last forever). Ever tried to catch a harassing mutalisk force as terran? I play terran and no I don´t try anymore, because it´s simply impossible. If the same is true for oracles now, well, GG protoss, you´ll win a lot more games now! You clearly overestimate an 11% attack speed buff on the tanks. Tanks will still get shredded by immortals, there is no question about it. And it doesn´t change anything if you get 2 or 3 shots more onto them during the process.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I find terran winning in WoL during the last few months was extremely awesome. Now it is a bit too boring, just a battle of mechanics. Watching how a terran tear apart the zerg in WoL is awesome, especially when drops have more risk behind them. it was only boring when a zerg roll'd a terran over.
I don't know, maybe it's just me. It had a "boss mode" feel to it when zerg has a deathball out.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I find terran winning in WoL during the last few months was extremely awesome. Now it is a bit too boring, just a battle of mechanics. Watching how a terran tear apart the zerg in WoL is awesome, especially when drops have more risk behind them. it was only boring when a zerg roll'd a terran over.
I don't know, maybe it's just me. It had a "boss mode" feel to it when zerg has a deathball out.
Yeah, i loved Ryung vs DRG game 1 because of it. Ryung: oh you has infestor brood lord, cool. Oh wait, it is whirlwind. DRG: NOOOOO, MY BASES *********, Damn, you have Ravens, GG.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I find terran winning in WoL during the last few months was extremely awesome. Now it is a bit too boring, just a battle of mechanics. Watching how a terran tear apart the zerg in WoL is awesome, especially when drops have more risk behind them. it was only boring when a zerg roll'd a terran over.
I don't know, maybe it's just me. It had a "boss mode" feel to it when zerg has a deathball out.
I guess. I know I felt a sense of pride of outplaying the other player completely when I won in WoL.
Then again, I lost a stupid amount too and was just like ...SIGH so I'm not sure how I feel like that.
No, I hated it. It was awful. That's when I loved Bio, Demuslim used to do it on stream a lot and it was just sweet. Marauders sniping Infestors was the best
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I find terran winning in WoL during the last few months was extremely awesome. Now it is a bit too boring, just a battle of mechanics. Watching how a terran tear apart the zerg in WoL is awesome, especially when drops have more risk behind them. it was only boring when a zerg roll'd a terran over.
I don't know, maybe it's just me. It had a "boss mode" feel to it when zerg has a deathball out.
I guess. I know I felt a sense of pride of outplaying the other player completely when I won in WoL.
Then again, I lost a stupid amount too and was just like ...SIGH so I'm not sure how I feel like that.
No, I hated it. It was awful. That's when I loved Bio, Demuslim used to do it on stream a lot and it was just sweet. Marauders sniping Infestors was the best
holy! internet high 5 that's exactly what I did except I mained zerg and switched to T since I wanted to prepare myself for hots, just in case I want a race switch. I followed this guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344554 And I almost made it to master, even better than my Z lol in fact I was having something like 80% win rate in TvZ and around 50% in TvT but I hit a wall when TvP diamond toss starts using storms and I haven't used ghost in my unit composition before my hot keys were/are: 1 army 2 rax 3 starports 4 all ccs 0 for far away base
That worked for me because macro was so easy like this and I could just micro well and win with pure bio, even in TvT. but it really doesn't work in TvP very well lol
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I find terran winning in WoL during the last few months was extremely awesome. Now it is a bit too boring, just a battle of mechanics. Watching how a terran tear apart the zerg in WoL is awesome, especially when drops have more risk behind them. it was only boring when a zerg roll'd a terran over.
I don't know, maybe it's just me. It had a "boss mode" feel to it when zerg has a deathball out.
I guess. I know I felt a sense of pride of outplaying the other player completely when I won in WoL.
Then again, I lost a stupid amount too and was just like ...SIGH so I'm not sure how I feel like that.
No, I hated it. It was awful. That's when I loved Bio, Demuslim used to do it on stream a lot and it was just sweet. Marauders sniping Infestors was the best
holy! internet high 5 that's exactly what I did except I mained zerg and switched to T since I wanted to prepare myself for hots, just in case I want a race switch. I followed this guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344554 And I almost made it to master, even better than my Z lol in fact I was having something like 80% win rate in TvZ and around 50% in TvT but I hit a wall when TvP diamond toss starts using storms and I haven't used ghost in my unit composition before my hot keys were/are: 1 army 2 rax 3 starports 4 all ccs 0 for far away base
That worked for me because macro was so easy like this and I could just micro well and win with pure bio, even in TvT. but it really doesn't work in TvP very well lol
Yup, did that as well. Super fun and able to stress out the Zerg's multi-tasking too. When I played against my friend's in BO3/5's it was great cause I could use two completely different styles and totally screw up how they prepared as long as I denied that first OL scout.
Then again, it didn't really change their prep much as... FFFFFFFFFFFF killed me anyways
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
On October 03 2013 21:05 Chaggi wrote: This makes me sad, nerf an ultra aggressive style and pidgeonhole Terran's to using tanks. What's the point of limiting options? It's not like pros were really having a hard time anymore dealing with WM's.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
I wish internet arguments would fix my FPS drops in SC2. I would probably run it at 60 FPS on extreme settings in 1600 supply fights. T_T
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
I wish internet arguments would fix my FPS drops in SC2. I would probably run it at 60 FPS on extreme settings in 1600 supply fights. T_T
I hear ya, I sold my old Macbook Pro because for some reason, ONLY SC2 would drop FPS like mad (see my I think one and only topic I've ever made on TL) to some unsuspecting Korean. Considering SC2 is dead here, I didn't think he'd mind
Please blizz don't make us build tanks again in tvz...its such a pain. And finally the fused mech and air upgrade,it was about time jesus christ. Crazy burrow builds should be funny to see :D
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
"I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton"
Oh there we go.. :D
Just to let you know, you don't start a discussion by acting like a kid losing his favourite toy. Come back after some winning streak on ladder, I'm sure we can talk.. :-)
Sorry, you are probably the only one that still believes that Starcraft 2 as an action game is better then Starcraft 2 as an real-time strategy game. Even developers are acknowledging this. You might want to rethink you attitude.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
looking at the balance stats now, I think zerg is winning by a margin this month? what if bio mine is going to be go out of style anyway, tank buff might makes T even better since bio tank in hots is weaker.
honestly a nerf in mine is good because it means blizzard has room to buff in other areas of T. Tank is what they are looking at now. The strength of bio mine makes that banshee buff not even relevant. But if we nerf bio mine style, T might make use of both banshee buff and tank buff and allowing mech to be more viable along with biomine.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
looking at the balance stats now, I think zerg is winning by a margin this month? what if bio mine is going to be go out of style anyway, tank buff might makes T even better since bio tank in hots is weaker.
honestly a nerf in mine is good because it means blizzard has room to buff in other areas of T. Tank is what they are looking at now. The strength of bio mine makes that banshee buff not even relevant. But if we nerf bio mine style, T might make use of both banshee buff and tank buff and allowing mech to be more viable along with biomine.
Besides that both are hardcountered by the same unit?
Sure a mine nerf would be nice if it would mean more diversity in the terran options. However a 10% decrease in cycle time of the tanks isn't nearly enough. You would need to boost turrets, thor anti air and nerf blinding cloud at the very least.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
"I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton"
Oh there we go.. :D
Just to let you know, you don't start a discussion by acting like a kid losing his favourite toy. Come back after some winning streak on ladder, I'm sure we can talk.. :-)
See, this type of attitude annoys me. You're trying to call me out on something that isn't true at all. I've been playing ever since Beta. I like different types of play. Some days I'm very drop happy, other days I'm very aggressive 1 push balls to the walls. I'm arguably as a player more successful as a slow tank player because I hit my highest ranks during the Broodlord Infestor days when you were making tanks. It's just stupid that Blizzard neuters entire styles of play because they want to promote another one for "diversity". What diversity is there? It's just substituting 1 style for another style that the viewers can get bored of in a few months. Then what? They're going to nerf tanks for some marauder buff or whatever, who the hell knows. Only when we get a few viable styles of play can the metagame properly shift cause the players will have different units to choose from. The most that TvZ has ever shifted was when Zerg decided that all-in'ing was pretty good at a certain point when Terran's were powering up and Soulkey won a GSL cause of it. If tanks were actually a viable option then, you may be able to see new tank timings instead of going back to WM's again.
If you don't understand that point and still think I'm doing it cause LOL I'M LOSING MY FAVORITE TOY, then I don't know what to say.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
looking at the balance stats now, I think zerg is winning by a margin this month? what if bio mine is going to be go out of style anyway, tank buff might makes T even better since bio tank in hots is weaker.
honestly a nerf in mine is good because it means blizzard has room to buff in other areas of T. Tank is what they are looking at now. The strength of bio mine makes that banshee buff not even relevant. But if we nerf bio mine style, T might make use of both banshee buff and tank buff and allowing mech to be more viable along with biomine.
Win % is never an indicator of balance at all. You need to look at every single game and realize why people are losing to see if imbalance is there. Even things like GSL vs MLG vs Dreamhack vs random tournament held in my backyard makes a difference. How tournaments are arranged can vastly shift the win rate. Just look at Proleague and see how much Protoss wins. Are they even winning any big tournaments lately? Blizzard, and the community needs to look at EVERYTHING to see that hey, imbalance is there. That's why Infestor/Broodlord stayed for as long as it did. I certainly can't come to the conclusion it was imbalanced. Maybe at my skill level when I didn't have the mechanics to drop in 2-3 places at once and split my units. Even then, people in this community have some sort of hard on for what's harder and what's not. If you look at Innovation, who's probably the best mechanically sound Terran player in the world, he's not doing so hot (relatively) because his decision making isn't as great.
What I wonder personally is, what terran will be supposed to do against high mutalisk numbers. Even now a 20ish muta count is oftentimes game for terran. If I´m supposed to build a slow and steady moving tank army, what makes the zerg so kind to attack into it (sieged up ofc!).
On October 03 2013 18:38 SalvationII wrote: Wow, nobody sees that this buffs/nerfs especially weaken protoss..
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more
Tanks... softcountering immortals... I don't think there is a harder counter-relationship in two units than immortals to siege tanks. The immortal is the worst unit to relate a siege tank to counter except for air units and workers.
This literally makes no sense. I'm sorry I want more options to play my race.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
looking at the balance stats now, I think zerg is winning by a margin this month? what if bio mine is going to be go out of style anyway, tank buff might makes T even better since bio tank in hots is weaker.
honestly a nerf in mine is good because it means blizzard has room to buff in other areas of T. Tank is what they are looking at now. The strength of bio mine makes that banshee buff not even relevant. But if we nerf bio mine style, T might make use of both banshee buff and tank buff and allowing mech to be more viable along with biomine.
Not really. A nerfed mine just means that the current standard build is weaker, possibly even too weak. Meanwhile they could have buffed (cerain) other units from the get go, because it doesn't interact with mine builds. For as long as mines are just a support unit, I don't really see the reason for this nerf and I hope that it still does not diminish the viability of mines too greatly.
On October 03 2013 23:31 TeeTS wrote: What I wonder personally is, what terran will be supposed to do against high mutalisk numbers. Even now a 20ish muta count is oftentimes game for terran. If I´m supposed to build a slow and steady moving tank army, what makes the zerg so kind to attack into it (sieged up ofc!).
SUPPOSEDLY, blizzard's idea is slow advance with turrets and thors or marines. That said, the muta is so easy to base micro and the terran army is so much harder (I'm just talking about low level, sub-masters control) that counterattacks will continue to be the biggest problem by a landslide. I have always struggled with large muta flocks, since beta.
To be honest, problem with mass muta is unique one. Also, i actually think that making few thors with 4M (now supposedly 4M-tank) army may help alot against those, as mass mutas rely on stacking and thors punish it in a volley. After that the good old: go kill him. But i am just thinking it out, and i do not see this really happening in real games, because BASE RACE.
On October 03 2013 18:38 SalvationII wrote: Wow, nobody sees that this buffs/nerfs especially weaken protoss..
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more
Tanks... softcountering immortals... I don't think there is a harder counter-relationship in two units than immortals to siege tanks. The immortal is the worst unit to relate a siege tank to counter except for air units and workers.
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more... lol wtf are we playing same game?
On October 04 2013 00:18 purakushi wrote: Once again, Blizzard takes the lazy way out and gives us skillless buffs/nerfs.
Yeah, right, because roach micro is skillless, oracle usage is skillless and what not. Also, if you want to touch word 'rework', you need to address this to whoever is current game designer (surprise, it is not DB now), not balance team. Maybe catching that game designer riding home may help.
On October 03 2013 18:38 SalvationII wrote: Wow, nobody sees that this buffs/nerfs especially weaken protoss..
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more
Tanks... softcountering immortals... I don't think there is a harder counter-relationship in two units than immortals to siege tanks. The immortal is the worst unit to relate a siege tank to counter except for air units and workers.
Tank buff will softcounter immortals more... lol wtf are we playing same game?
Yeah, sometimes those statements about unit relations are inexplainable.
What about looking at the Thor and it's immobility and ineffectiveness?
It simply doesn't serve the needed AA function. I feel that if the Goliath existed it would help greatly. Make the Thor 1/3 the cost 1/3 the size and %25 faster.
lol now all the new terran things are gone. Warhound already removed in beta, haven't seen hellbats in months, and after this patch widow mine is gone too. Good stuff.
On October 04 2013 00:25 FLuE wrote: What about looking at the Thor and it's immobility and ineffectiveness?
It simply doesn't serve the needed AA function. I feel that if the Goliath existed it would help greatly. Make the Thor 1/3 the cost 1/3 the size and %25 faster.
%25? you mean to the default mech army speed? Well, there comes your problem: you have to heavily nerf damage and/or range of thor's attack and it suddenly loses it's actual utility against muta clumps that are sniping stuff. In fact, blizzard i believe gave that 1 shot muta attack to widow mine just for the sake of giving some kind of mobile anti-muta stuff to couple it with thor.
On October 04 2013 00:27 mechengineer123 wrote: lol now all the new terran things are gone. Warhound already removed in beta, haven't seen hellbats in months, and after this patch widow mine is gone too. Good stuff.
it doesnt particoularly bother me,but heck if its not true
On October 04 2013 00:47 Existor wrote: You are overreacting to these changes. This is only slight nerf to widow mine and you call it "Widow Mine is gone". It's still can do it work
It's a 50% reduction to its area of effect. It's a HUGE nerf.
No you don't want more options. You want them to buff or at least not nerf the playstyle or units you like to use. Just admit it. You have buffed Tanks and merged air/mech upgrades, while still somewhat working widow mines + whole viable bio tech path. So go figure some new stuff if you want more options and stop whining.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
looking at the balance stats now, I think zerg is winning by a margin this month? what if bio mine is going to be go out of style anyway, tank buff might makes T even better since bio tank in hots is weaker.
honestly a nerf in mine is good because it means blizzard has room to buff in other areas of T. Tank is what they are looking at now. The strength of bio mine makes that banshee buff not even relevant. But if we nerf bio mine style, T might make use of both banshee buff and tank buff and allowing mech to be more viable along with biomine.
Not really. A nerfed mine just means that the current standard build is weaker, possibly even too weak. Meanwhile they could have buffed (cerain) other units from the get go, because it doesn't interact with mine builds. For as long as mines are just a support unit, I don't really see the reason for this nerf and I hope that it still does not diminish the viability of mines too greatly.
Of cause it will. The nerf to the mine is to get rid of bio mine style completely and blizzard isn't really trying to hide their intention here. They said it well, it should not be a unit to replace tank's role, instead of making tank a niche unit and widow mine being a key unit, they want to change the order up. This patch is mainly to set a direction for tvz because they don't think it is going the right way. Similar to beta where reaper had a lot of different changes. I have no doubt win rates for T will drop a lot in the next few months, but we would also see new meta developing and blizzard will patch things as it goes along.
(oops and I meant make mech more viable along with bio tank in the original sentence there)
On October 04 2013 00:25 FLuE wrote: What about looking at the Thor and it's immobility and ineffectiveness?
It simply doesn't serve the needed AA function. I feel that if the Goliath existed it would help greatly. Make the Thor 1/3 the cost 1/3 the size and %25 faster.
%25? you mean to the default mech army speed? Well, there comes your problem: you have to heavily nerf damage and/or range of thor's attack and it suddenly loses it's actual utility against muta clumps that are sniping stuff. In fact, blizzard i believe gave that 1 shot muta attack to widow mine just for the sake of giving some kind of mobile anti-muta stuff to couple it with thor.
Yes you'd also make it do 1/3 the damage or whatever. Basically, the Thor sucks for what it is suppose to help with.
Honestly, you could leave widow mines as is but make it so they don't shoot air, and then make the Thor actually work as an AA unit. The problem is the Thor stinks for AA especially before you have several out and then you need the mine to help with Muta harassment. But they want Muta Harassment to be good so they buffed the muta with regen and speed. But if you don't catch the Terran before turrets/mines the mutas stink.
Ultimately they just keep balancing themselves in a circle because they don't fix any real problems. The mine isn't the problem, zerg detection is the problem. They just keep making the faster units even faster, and then the slower units become more worthless. They can't decide on the games mobility structure, and when you couple that with the ever changing map size it is a giant cluster.
On October 03 2013 12:51 bittman wrote: Only reason I'm neutral with the roach thing is that it feels like Blizzards answer seems to be to just keep making things walk faster and faster. I'd prefer different approaches. I like the slow roach crawl hehe
Burrow I guess I'm a bit fine (mainly because it feels really underpowered before) but I agree in general about making things faster.
The Oracle change, you need to look at what it does and what it benefits from faster movement. The Oracle concept itself is nice but what it actually does (destroy worker lines really fast and can change the tide of the game in an instant) is a huge problem in SC2.
Edit - For some reason, I forgot about Revelation (ironically since it's in the patch note itself) and focused simply on Pulsar Beam (which when just against workers, faster speed doesn't really help much except maybe the occasional early game oracle rush but that usually done with proxy star gates anyway). The speed helps Oracle scouting + Revelation more so than than it destroying worker lines. The speed change with the Oracle I am fine with in that case. We'll see what it does. So disregard my comment about it (I forgot about Revelation, even though it was in the patch notes, for some reason >.>).
Anyway, what I was saying not specific to the Oracle (and in fact, the oracle change is fine) but with SC2 in general. That most of the difficulty in things comes with speed but yet that's the only thing. We have overpowered things in SC2 but yet the difficulty in controlling (and countering against them) and how huge of an impact of the game they have is a problem.
Widow Mines are an example (the difference between a good widow mine hit compared to a bad hit is enough difference to change the outcome of an entire battle and potentially the entire game). Though since they're nerfing it, at least Blizzard understands (though I said this before, I think I would rather them adding a max target cap on it and/or slowing down the speed of the projectile a bit but we'll have to see what this radius nerf does first).
Widow Mines (like Banelings and other huge AoE stuff against clumps of units) are also supposed to promote micro and provide a challenge. It does but it's not very practical to split marines or micro zerglings and stuff against widow mines (for example).
I said this before but micro in SC2 is mostly just how fast you can do things. Outside of speed, it doesn't have as much depth. And in fact, lots of people lately have been catching on that SC2 is actually way too fast (battles that win or lose games can occur in 10 seconds or less, which is not enough time for most people to react). The game being hard doesn't mean the game has depth (and depth is important). Deep games are probably also difficult to master. However, difficult games are not necessarily deep games (it depends on what was done to make the game difficult).
In BW, micro wasn't simply about speed (nor was it the important thing most of the time actually) but about precision and depth.
Mutalisk are a good example. When microing Mutalisk, you have to pay attention to what direction the Mutalisk is facing (before attacking, depending on which unit command you use) and distance between the Mutalisk and the target, etc. And after taking all that into account, you have to decide whether to use attack move, attack (directly), patrol, hold position, etc.
I could go in more depth but anyone who has played BW can also vouch and say that Mutalisk micro was just very deep.
There was so many decisions you can make and so many ways to improve, and it was practical and easy micro to do.
You didn't need super quick speed or anything to start microing Mutalisk against scourge or marines or whatever.
It had a ton of depth and it was easy (and practical) to learn too.
Compared to SC2 where all micro is "how fast you do it", it's really watered down in comparison.
Again, I don't blame Blizzard or anything, I think HotS was a good experiment but I really think some key gameplay mechanics from BW should return in SC2 (yes, most of them were accidental but look at most competitive games like fighting games or FPS, a lot of them have "accidental" deep gameplay mechanics but they end up being encouraged by the developers in later installments).
I remember reading here that BW was doing #6 place in PC bangs in South Korea while SC2 (after HotS) was only doing at #11.
If BW is still beating SC2, then something is wrong.
I think it is very important to emphasis the difference in gameplay and depth in BW compared to SC2.
Using "whether it is hard to do or not" as a gauge to judge whether it is deep or not is wrong.
SC2, microing is hard and the skill ceiling is high but what does it all come down to? Simply how fast you can split marines or whatever.
BW was hard but at the same time it has depth.
SC2 microing is hard but it doesn't have much depth compared to BW.
Just want some food for thought as I know Blizzard can't change anything big until LotV (these small changes I am fine in HotS). Again, it's very important to emphasis that depth =/= difficulty. While SC2 has difficulty in micro, it doesn't have as much depth as BW and depth in difficulty (not just difficulty by itself) is a key part in what helps make a game fun.
On October 04 2013 00:47 Existor wrote: You are overreacting to these changes. This is only slight nerf to widow mine and you call it "Widow Mine is gone". It's still can do it work
It's a 50% reduction to its area of effect. It's a HUGE nerf.
people tend to easily underestimate nerfs in radius of aoe spells as the area goes with the square of the radius, i feel that with the current change the splash is small enough now that they will not be viable anymore, a change to a radius of 1.5 contributes to about 26 percent reduction of area which i think should be enough.
Yes, please tell me more what I want. Think about it like this, at the start of HoTS, even with all the whining, Bio/WM was one of the most dynamic MU's, especially relative to the boringness of Broodlord/Infestor in the last part of WoL. And now, people are complaining that it's boring to watch.
What's going to happen when Bio/Tank/WM comes out? People are gonna say it's awesome, better than Bio/WM, but after 6-8 months, it's going to be the same old story again, hey this is boring. What makes a game fresh is giving players the tools to innovate and evolve the metagame. This means not nerfing stuff simply for a change. It's the easy way out.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
looking at the balance stats now, I think zerg is winning by a margin this month? what if bio mine is going to be go out of style anyway, tank buff might makes T even better since bio tank in hots is weaker.
honestly a nerf in mine is good because it means blizzard has room to buff in other areas of T. Tank is what they are looking at now. The strength of bio mine makes that banshee buff not even relevant. But if we nerf bio mine style, T might make use of both banshee buff and tank buff and allowing mech to be more viable along with biomine.
Not really. A nerfed mine just means that the current standard build is weaker, possibly even too weak. Meanwhile they could have buffed (cerain) other units from the get go, because it doesn't interact with mine builds. For as long as mines are just a support unit, I don't really see the reason for this nerf and I hope that it still does not diminish the viability of mines too greatly.
Of cause it will. The nerf to the mine is to get rid of bio mine style completely and blizzard isn't really trying to hide their intention here. They said it well, it should not be a unit to replace tank's role, instead of making tank a niche unit and widow mine being a key unit, they want to change the order up. This patch is mainly to set a direction for tvz because they don't think it is going the right way. Similar to beta where reaper had a lot of different changes. I have no doubt win rates for T will drop a lot in the next few months, but we would also see new meta developing and blizzard will patch things as it goes along.
(oops and I meant make mech more viable along with bio tank in the original sentence there)
david kim also said on several occasions that he does not like the tank / tankplay and is ok with it being phased out, so i think someone forced him here.
I will point out what you want as long as it is clearly visible. Don't hide behind cheap phrases and try to look cool at the same time.
So we are talking TvZ.
Yes, WoL style Broodlord/Infestor was boring and dumb to watch and play. It took the community and players like 6 months to realize what is going on and force Blizzard to do some changes. In Hots, it took the us maybe half the time to realize basically the same thing is happening. So obviously both scenarios make for stagnant, boring, repetitive and just plain wrong. In WoL, mech was somewhat viable at least. Now there is none.. It just happens that to some people, certain playstyle fits them, while the game suffers at the same time..
Do you really believe in a month or two, people would start to change metagame based on ling/bling/muta vs 4M?
So that's why you buff tanks, or buff something to make it viable in TvZ as well so you can have players playing both Bio/Mine AND Bio/Tank. So there is more to watch. What the hell is so hard about this idea? Oh I know, it's your apparent fetish for the idea that I somehow am trying to hide the fact that nerfs are bad from I guess a balance? standpoint, I don't even know.
Your last sentece sums it up pretty well. You don't even know. You seem to be very set in your opinions. I don't find this argument with you valuable anymore. Also, you seem to like "hyper aggresion" not only in video-games, so lets just chill out a leave it as is.
Yeah, please, accuse me of something completely random and then leave without explaining properly. Lovely.
You can enjoy your victory feeling. I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to overly aggresive, biased and blind person incapable of any kind of self-reflexion and listening ability.
What winning feeling? What did I win? An argument with some random person on the internet? And I thought we were here to discuss our views on these balance changes. I hope I get some ladder points for this, I've been bleeding a ton lately.
looking at the balance stats now, I think zerg is winning by a margin this month? what if bio mine is going to be go out of style anyway, tank buff might makes T even better since bio tank in hots is weaker.
honestly a nerf in mine is good because it means blizzard has room to buff in other areas of T. Tank is what they are looking at now. The strength of bio mine makes that banshee buff not even relevant. But if we nerf bio mine style, T might make use of both banshee buff and tank buff and allowing mech to be more viable along with biomine.
Not really. A nerfed mine just means that the current standard build is weaker, possibly even too weak. Meanwhile they could have buffed (cerain) other units from the get go, because it doesn't interact with mine builds. For as long as mines are just a support unit, I don't really see the reason for this nerf and I hope that it still does not diminish the viability of mines too greatly.
Of cause it will. The nerf to the mine is to get rid of bio mine style completely and blizzard isn't really trying to hide their intention here. They said it well, it should not be a unit to replace tank's role, instead of making tank a niche unit and widow mine being a key unit, they want to change the order up. This patch is mainly to set a direction for tvz because they don't think it is going the right way. Similar to beta where reaper had a lot of different changes. I have no doubt win rates for T will drop a lot in the next few months, but we would also see new meta developing and blizzard will patch things as it goes along.
(oops and I meant make mech more viable along with bio tank in the original sentence there)
david kim also said on several occasions that he does not like the tank / tankplay and is ok with it being phased out, so i think someone forced him here.
we all know starcraft has a balance team, he is merely the team leader or something
While bio mine play as the only viable option becomes boring, I dont really get why they are nerfing the mine anymore. Lately tvz is clearly not terranfavoured like it once was, having the best tvzer in the world beaten left and right.
Buffing the random roach ability is kinda silly. They designed the skill poorly. Why give your tanky unit super speed?
@Why nerf now? Their patching department works on data driven-ness, so now they finally have data to say its OP after zergs have figured it out. I would hate to be one of those zergs that figured out how to deal with it, you know spend all that effort and have it patched to ez mode for everyone.
I'm still baffled as to why they are making these hilariously unused custom maps. They need to have a special map in the LADDER pool that you can opt to either play or not. That way you can actively test it with people without having to play versus random people/noobs or spend forever setting up custom games. It's like they do not think of the most obvious things.
In the same vein, I still believe that the oracle buff is pointless; while on the other hand, the other two race buffs are interesting and will most certainly need testing. I'm really curious to see how the widow mine works after their applied patch.
I don't like that they are trying to push zerg even more to muta/ling/bane in ZvT when it's already pretty much the only thing we see together with a few roach bane all ins. As a zerg player, this is why I dissaprove of both tank/mine change. I would like it more if they nerfed/changed mutalisks a little, I think their regen is too strong, especially for ZvP. I think nerfing muta regen and maybe increase their damage a little would make for a more interesting play, as they are already so bad in a heads up fight.
On October 04 2013 01:39 bo1b wrote: That is a fucking massive nerf to biomine holy shit.
Seems stupidly out of place when zerg is clearly starting to start winning zvt, if not have an advantage (statistically at least) in korean zvt.
It's not about one race or another winning. It's about the unit itself being really stupid. Widow mines are borderline coin-flippy because it's all about exploiting a single micro mistake from Zerg swinging games massively into favors. I'd be all for reducing the cost or cooldown of the Widow Mine and its attack, respectively. Gas units that have huge, powerful, game-winning attacks, with one big disadvantage lend themselves to volatile, annoyingly coin-flippy games. It's not fun to watch a Zerg slowly climb ahead just by playing cost-efficiently against Terran, only to lose the game because of one Sentinel Missile. Just like it isn't fun to watch a Terran try over and over and over again to get the golden mine shot and fail, thus losing by default to Muta-Ling. Tempering the mine so that it does less volatile damage (and maybe more often), is only good for the players and the viewers, not to mention the game overall.
On October 04 2013 01:39 bo1b wrote: That is a fucking massive nerf to biomine holy shit.
Seems stupidly out of place when zerg is clearly starting to start winning zvt, if not have an advantage (statistically at least) in korean zvt.
It's not about one race or another winning. It's about the unit itself being really stupid. Widow mines are borderline coin-flippy because it's all about exploiting a single micro mistake from Zerg swinging games massively into favors. I'd be all for reducing the cost or cooldown of the Widow Mine and its attack, respectively. Gas units that have huge, powerful, game-winning attacks, with one big disadvantage lend themselves to volatile, annoyingly coin-flippy games. It's not fun to watch a Zerg slowly climb ahead just by playing cost-efficiently against Terran, only to lose the game because of one Sentinel Missile. Just like it isn't fun to watch a Terran try over and over and over again to get the golden mine shot and fail, thus losing by default to Muta-Ling. Tempering the mine so that it does less volatile damage (and maybe more often), is only good for the players and the viewers, not to mention the game overall.
I'd agree with you except that the micro of top zergs recently has basically been making it so mines only ever detonate at best barely above cost efficient, and at worst on top of there own army.
While I'm not a huge fan of the unit itself, terran is going to be without hope if this patch goes through without recompense.
On October 04 2013 02:00 Zheryn wrote: I don't like that they are trying to push zerg even more to muta/ling/bane in ZvT when it's already pretty much the only thing we see together with a few roach bane all ins. As a zerg player, this is why I dissaprove of both tank/mine change. I would like it more if they nerfed/changed mutalisks a little, I think their regen is too strong, especially for ZvP. I think nerfing muta regen and maybe increase their damage a little would make for a more interesting play, as they are already so bad in a heads up fight.
Well they're trying to improve mech so that you see ranged ground + Vipers in ZvT as well, but they're doing it from the Terran side. Their aim IMO is to see Muta-Ling against Bio and Range Zerg against Mech, kinda like in BW from what I know (which isn't much). I think the mech buff really helps Vikings deal with Vipers in the late mid-game, forcing Zerg to mix in Corruptors or Hydras. While Brood Lord-Infestor isn't fun to watch vs bio because of straight up imbalance, I think those slow, split map games of SH/Infestor/BroodLord would be much more fun against a Terran that also gets a chance to get a Raven-mech ball up. That is probably a ways off still, but I like Blizzard's approach on this, to ZvT at least. Also it's possible the Tank buff makes them waaaaaay better against immortals in TvP, depending on the composition. We'll see how that works out.
On October 04 2013 01:39 bo1b wrote: That is a fucking massive nerf to biomine holy shit.
Seems stupidly out of place when zerg is clearly starting to start winning zvt, if not have an advantage (statistically at least) in korean zvt.
It's not about one race or another winning. It's about the unit itself being really stupid. Widow mines are borderline coin-flippy because it's all about exploiting a single micro mistake from Zerg swinging games massively into favors. I'd be all for reducing the cost or cooldown of the Widow Mine and its attack, respectively. Gas units that have huge, powerful, game-winning attacks, with one big disadvantage lend themselves to volatile, annoyingly coin-flippy games. It's not fun to watch a Zerg slowly climb ahead just by playing cost-efficiently against Terran, only to lose the game because of one Sentinel Missile. Just like it isn't fun to watch a Terran try over and over and over again to get the golden mine shot and fail, thus losing by default to Muta-Ling. Tempering the mine so that it does less volatile damage (and maybe more often), is only good for the players and the viewers, not to mention the game overall.
I'd agree with you except that the micro of top zergs recently has basically been making it so mines only ever detonate at best barely above cost efficient, and at worst on top of there own army.
While I'm not a huge fan of the unit itself, terran is going to be without hope if this patch goes through without recompense.
I absolutely disagree. A Widow Mine can kill up to 16 Banelings in one shot. Reducing the radius from 1.75 to 1.25 (a reduction of about 30% in the radius, translating to about a 50% decrease in area) decreases that number to somewhere around 8. I hardly find it underpowered that a Widow Mine can kill up to 8 banelings in one shot instead of 16. And certainly it forces Zerg to split banelings, but since failure to split gas units is so much more costly than failure to split Marines, the intensity is somewhat reduced by decreasing the Widow Mine splash.
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots.
now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway
Never say never. Remember that any buff in attack speed for tanks is a straight up buff to their damage vs immortals. Maybe if Blizzard makes Hellbats immune to Archon +dmg vs bio, that buff is all you need for a viable TvP mech.
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots.
now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway
Never say never. Remember that any buff in attack speed for tanks is a straight up buff to their damage vs immortals. Maybe if Blizzard makes Hellbats immune to Archon +dmg vs bio, that buff is all you need for a viable TvP mech.
Immortals are only a small problem for tanks. The main issue is that every protoss unit is effective vs them. Also, way too many are needed to secure positions vs blink stalkers or chargelot warpins. I think a supply decrease and a damage nerf would have been the way to go.
On October 04 2013 01:39 bo1b wrote: That is a fucking massive nerf to biomine holy shit.
Seems stupidly out of place when zerg is clearly starting to start winning zvt, if not have an advantage (statistically at least) in korean zvt.
It's not about one race or another winning. It's about the unit itself being really stupid. Widow mines are borderline coin-flippy because it's all about exploiting a single micro mistake from Zerg swinging games massively into favors. I'd be all for reducing the cost or cooldown of the Widow Mine and its attack, respectively. Gas units that have huge, powerful, game-winning attacks, with one big disadvantage lend themselves to volatile, annoyingly coin-flippy games. It's not fun to watch a Zerg slowly climb ahead just by playing cost-efficiently against Terran, only to lose the game because of one Sentinel Missile. Just like it isn't fun to watch a Terran try over and over and over again to get the golden mine shot and fail, thus losing by default to Muta-Ling. Tempering the mine so that it does less volatile damage (and maybe more often), is only good for the players and the viewers, not to mention the game overall.
I'd agree with you except that the micro of top zergs recently has basically been making it so mines only ever detonate at best barely above cost efficient, and at worst on top of there own army.
While I'm not a huge fan of the unit itself, terran is going to be without hope if this patch goes through without recompense.
I absolutely disagree. A Widow Mine can kill up to 16 Banelings in one shot. Reducing the radius from 1.75 to 1.25 (a reduction of about 30% in the radius, translating to about a 50% decrease in area) decreases that number to somewhere around 8. I hardly find it underpowered that a Widow Mine can kill up to 8 banelings in one shot instead of 16. And certainly it forces Zerg to split banelings, but since failure to split gas units is so much more costly than failure to split Marines, the intensity is somewhat reduced by decreasing the Widow Mine splash.
I didn't say anything about the potential for a mine hit to do more damage, I said recently zergs have been splitting there banelings into small groups and severely limiting the damage that widowmines actually do in engagements.
Drg vs innovation, curious vs innovation, hyvaa vs innovation, (probably the best example of how despite taking more damage then the other examples the widow mines never really tipped the balance like you're indicating) have all shown vs the best mechanics based tvz player in the world (if not the best tvz player full stop), in which he micros his widow mine shots more then anyone else still has very minimal effectiveness with them.
Again, while the possibility of a widow mine hitting an obscene amount of banelings/zerglings/wiping out a muta flock is certainly still there (and did infact happen in curious vs innovation where curious won anyway), the rate in which it happens is shrinking rapidly, and the effect it has seems to be reduced.
My point still stands btw, if the proposed nerf to terran goes through they will be at such a disadvantage. At least imo.
I didn't say anything about the potential for a mine hit to do more damage, I said recently zergs have been splitting there banelings into small groups and severely limiting the damage that widowmines actually do in engagements.
Drg vs innovation, curious vs innovation, hyvaa vs innovation, (probably the best example of how despite taking more damage then the other examples the widow mines never really tipped the balance like you're indicating) have all shown vs the best mechanics based tvz player in the world (if not the best tvz player full stop), in which he micros his widow mine shots more then anyone else still has very minimal effectiveness with them.
Again, while the possibility of a widow mine hitting an obscene amount of banelings/zerglings/wiping out a muta flock is certainly still there (and did infact happen in curious vs innovation where curious won anyway), the rate in which it happens is shrinking rapidly, and the effect it has seems to be reduced.
My point still stands btw, if the proposed nerf to terran goes through they will be at such a disadvantage. At least imo."
I think your evidence is actually spot on and very important but I think it can support a completely different claim. If zergs have figured out how to micro against WM as your examples suggest, (and I agree that they are figuring it out) then reducing the radius shouldn't change the outcome as much because zergs are setting off mines with 2-3 banelings anyway. In theory tanks have always been the answer to zerg being able to set off mines with a few banelings because against tanks zerg wants to swarm all at once, but against WM your want to attack in small waves until all the mines are spent. So At the top level, if Zergs keep setting off mines with a few units, a radius change won't hurt that much, but an incentive to mix in even a single tank should tip the scales in the terran favor when zerg is going b/ling/muta. Also a note on the "absolute immobility of tanks" that makes them apparently so shitty: It has already been done in WCS to load up a tank or two (say an early defensive tank) in a turbovac and follow the bio mine army and only drop it when your are ready to set up a siege position. I think it was a european player who did this on belshire vestige in S1 or S2. Maybe lucifron or t-funk, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.
All that being said, Blizz has not addressed the muta factor... People have posted it over and over again so I won't go to far into it, but nerfing WM without either buffing Terran AA options such as the THOR or missle turrets (meh) or nerfing mutas (probably the best and long overdue option) should make mutas even stronger than they are now in the late game.
I guess terrans will have to get creative. One raven per base to drop pdds to help missle turrent lines?? ;P
On October 04 2013 02:47 Jer99 wrote: If the siege tank buff goes through, TvT will be the most boring match up to watch
I disagree, I love siege tank wars.
Those battles where siege lines go off the screen on both sides and players have to debate between holding their ground or un-sieging and going for the siege break, or watching a player get gutsy and drop on top of a line of tanks...
To me, those are some of the greatest moments in watching starcraft. Bio is fun to watch, but tanks are the best.
I would love to get a pro players opinion or see a balance map where the muta regen is slightly nerfed, so as to make thors actually viable vs them and prevent a zerg getting to 30+ mutas to just win a game.
On October 04 2013 03:54 bo1b wrote: I would love to get a pro players opinion or see a balance map where the muta regen is slightly nerfed, so as to make thors actually viable vs them and prevent a zerg getting to 30+ mutas to just win a game.
Or, since Blizzard is in the mood these days for specialized buffs/nerfs (like the widow mine +20 vs shields, hellbat is biological when in combat mode and mechanical when in car mode), just make the Thor have a special effect where its missle shot nullifies the muta regen for 30 seconds :p
But you're right, we need pros to play out the balance changes (though you still run into the problem of players being biased for their own races, not sure how to get over that hurdle).
I'm probably missing something, but removing the muta buff in conjunction with the widowmine nerf just makes sense to me. It seems like it would fix a lot of problems in the pvz matchup, mutas couldn't just yolo a few thor shots while killing siege tanks, and the spore crawler buff could finally be removed without turning zvz back into the muta v muta shitfest that it was previously.
On October 04 2013 04:05 bo1b wrote: I'm probably missing something, but removing the muta buff in conjunction with the widowmine nerf just makes sense to me. It seems like it would fix a lot of problems in the pvz matchup, mutas couldn't just yolo a few thor shots while killing siege tanks, and the spore crawler buff could finally be removed without turning zvz back into the muta v muta shitfest that it was previously.
Blizzard's balancing of HOTS has gone in a complete circle this way.
Terran needs to harass more > Turbovacs Zerg can't deal with this intense harass now > Muta speed increased Mutas are too fast for Protoss now > Phoenix buff, now (possible) Oracle speed buff Widow mines are too good as AA now > Muta health regen Muta's are too good now in ZvZ, matchup is stale > Spore buff *now* Widow mines are too good > radius nerf
so the likely results are...
Muta regen is cut? Thor damage increased? Something else? O.o
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.
On October 04 2013 04:24 Dingodile wrote: Great to make hots units worse. Why exactly do we have HotS multiplayer? Zerg need a tier3 unit with missile attack.
Missle attack? BL :D Attack, that benefits from ranged upgrades. I call SHs tier 3 for a reason :D
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.
Why?
Because they can kinda roast zealots faster now, since you want to have attack upgardes on vikings.
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.
Why?
Because they can kinda roast zealots faster now, since you want to have attack upgardes on vikings.
On October 04 2013 04:24 Dingodile wrote: Great to make hots units worse. Why exactly do we have HotS multiplayer? Zerg need a tier3 unit with missile attack.
Missle attack? BL :D Attack, that benefits from ranged upgrades. I call SHs tier 3 for a reason :D
Bnet sc2 units guide says "missile attack" for roach/hydras/SH. I like to hear your reason that SH is a tier3 unit. Only Ultras and BL are tier3 for me (maybe viper too) and both have melee attacks.
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.
Why?
MMMV vs gateway+colossus you're naturally going to upgrade air attack, and upgrading air attack now means you're upgrading mech attack too, which makes hellbats stronger. Without it you're gutting your build to accomodate a unit that fits in clunkily.
On October 04 2013 04:24 Dingodile wrote: Great to make hots units worse. Why exactly do we have HotS multiplayer? Zerg need a tier3 unit with missile attack.
Missle attack? BL :D Attack, that benefits from ranged upgrades. I call SHs tier 3 for a reason :D
Bnet sc2 units guide says "missile attack" for roach/hydras/SH. I like to hear your reason that SH is a tier3 unit. Only Ultras and BL are tier3 for me (maybe viper too) and both have melee attacks.
Missile attack for t3 units would be useless against terrans. I think T3 zergs units are good as they are right now.
I dislike the combined weapons upgrade. Always have. It removes a point of differentiation for the race (and races). But, it may turn out to be good in terms of Terran gameplay. So, it might turn out alright after all. I'm still in two minds about it.
I like the Oracle changes, but I do not think that Revelation range needs to be increased if speed and acceleration are also increased. It is up to the Protoss user to ensure the Oracle gets out safely, and it is now easier to do so. I do wish, though, that use of the beam was better in some way. I've always disliked that press "C" and it happens. Too easy.
I don't play T or Z, so I am unsure about the WM. It does seem too big a nerf, though, and may have to be tweaked after testing. Also, as many have said, without the WM, I am not sure how Terran will deal with mass Mutalisks. If WM do vanish from the match-up (if the nerf is too big), it may well completely alter the match-up in all kinds of unexpected ways.
On October 03 2013 12:51 bittman wrote: Only reason I'm neutral with the roach thing is that it feels like Blizzards answer seems to be to just keep making things walk faster and faster. I'd prefer different approaches. I like the slow roach crawl hehe
Burrow I guess I'm a bit fine (mainly because it feels really underpowered before) but I agree in general about making things faster.
The Oracle change, you need to look at what it does and what it benefits from faster movement. The Oracle concept itself is nice but what it actually does (destroy worker lines really fast and can change the tide of the game in an instant) is a huge problem in SC2.
Edit - For some reason, I forgot about Revelation (ironically since it's in the patch note itself) and focused simply on Pulsar Beam (which when just against workers, faster speed doesn't really help much except maybe the occasional early game oracle rush but that usually done with proxy star gates anyway). The speed helps Oracle scouting + Revelation more so than than it destroying worker lines. The speed change with the Oracle I am fine with in that case. We'll see what it does. So disregard my comment about it (I forgot about Revelation, even though it was in the patch notes, for some reason >.>).
Anyway, what I was saying not specific to the Oracle (and in fact, the oracle change is fine) but with SC2 in general. That most of the difficulty in things comes with speed but yet that's the only thing. We have overpowered things in SC2 but yet the difficulty in controlling (and countering against them) and how huge of an impact of the game they have is a problem.
Widow Mines are an example (the difference between a good widow mine hit compared to a bad hit is enough difference to change the outcome of an entire battle and potentially the entire game). Though since they're nerfing it, at least Blizzard understands (though I said this before, I think I would rather them adding a max target cap on it and/or slowing down the speed of the projectile a bit but we'll have to see what this radius nerf does first).
Widow Mines (like Banelings and other huge AoE stuff against clumps of units) are also supposed to promote micro and provide a challenge. It does but it's not very practical to split marines or micro zerglings and stuff against widow mines (for example).
I said this before but micro in SC2 is mostly just how fast you can do things. Outside of speed, it doesn't have as much depth. And in fact, lots of people lately have been catching on that SC2 is actually way too fast (battles that win or lose games can occur in 10 seconds or less, which is not enough time for most people to react). The game being hard doesn't mean the game has depth (and depth is important). Deep games are probably also difficult to master. However, difficult games are not necessarily deep games (it depends on what was done to make the game difficult).
In BW, micro wasn't simply about speed (nor was it the important thing most of the time actually) but about precision and depth.
Mutalisk are a good example. When microing Mutalisk, you have to pay attention to what direction the Mutalisk is facing (before attacking, depending on which unit command you use) and distance between the Mutalisk and the target, etc. And after taking all that into account, you have to decide whether to use attack move, attack (directly), patrol, hold position, etc.
I could go in more depth but anyone who has played BW can also vouch and say that Mutalisk micro was just very deep.
There was so many decisions you can make and so many ways to improve, and it was practical and easy micro to do.
You didn't need super quick speed or anything to start microing Mutalisk against scourge or marines or whatever.
It had a ton of depth and it was easy (and practical) to learn too.
Compared to SC2 where all micro is "how fast you do it", it's really watered down in comparison.
Again, I don't blame Blizzard or anything, I think HotS was a good experiment but I really think some key gameplay mechanics from BW should return in SC2 (yes, most of them were accidental but look at most competitive games like fighting games or FPS, a lot of them have "accidental" deep gameplay mechanics but they end up being encouraged by the developers in later installments).
I remember reading here that BW was doing #6 place in PC bangs in South Korea while SC2 (after HotS) was only doing at #11.
If BW is still beating SC2, then something is wrong.
I think it is very important to emphasis the difference in gameplay and depth in BW compared to SC2.
Using "whether it is hard to do or not" as a gauge to judge whether it is deep or not is wrong.
SC2, microing is hard and the skill ceiling is high but what does it all come down to? Simply how fast you can split marines or whatever.
BW was hard but at the same time it has depth.
SC2 microing is hard but it doesn't have much depth compared to BW.
Just want some food for thought as I know Blizzard can't change anything big until LotV (these small changes I am fine in HotS). Again, it's very important to emphasis that depth =/= difficulty. While SC2 has difficulty in micro, it doesn't have as much depth as BW and depth in difficulty (not just difficulty by itself) is a key part in what helps make a game fun.
WM nerf is perfect - thoughts after testing. Still wm hits can turn fights into T's favor. Also, now people add upgraded thors to counter mutas. I feel pretty good with a new stuff! Tank change is awesome too.
On October 04 2013 14:30 wishr wrote: WM nerf is perfect - thoughts after testing. Still wm hits can turn fights into T's favor. Also, now people add upgraded thors to counter mutas. I feel pretty good with a new stuff! Tank change is awesome too.
Huh? Did I miss something? Thors aren't boosted. They are now not nearly good enough against mutas, so why would you possibly want to add them after this patch? A bit less like tanks, but same idea, they ruin the mobility of your army. If you want them added you first need thor anti-air attack really boosted.
Quite frankly I don't see how they think heavily nerfing terran in TvZ when the winrate is around 50/50 is a good idea. And yes I know winrate isn't everything, but it does mean if it is fairly close to 50% you need to compensate nerfs with boosts in other areas. And now that isn't done (no a tad faster tank cycle time is not comparable to the WM nerf, it will also mainly affect TvT).
On October 04 2013 14:30 wishr wrote: [spoiler] WM nerf is perfect - thoughts after testing. Still wm hits can turn fights into T's favor. Also, now people add upgraded thors to counter mutas. I feel pretty good with a new stuff! Tank change is awesome too.
Huh? Did I miss something? Thors aren't boosted. They are now not nearly good enough against mutas, so why would you possibly want to add them after this patch? A bit less like tanks, but same idea, they ruin the mobility of your army. If you want them added you first need thor anti-air attack really boosted.
Quite frankly I don't see how they think heavily nerfing terran in TvZ when the winrate is around 50/50 is a good idea. And yes I know winrate isn't everything, but it does mean if it is fairly close to 50% you need to compensate nerfs with boosts in other areas. And now that isn't done (no a tad faster tank cycle time is not comparable to the WM nerf, it will also mainly affect TvT).
Just because now u upgrade tanks, not only marines.
On October 04 2013 14:30 wishr wrote: WM nerf is perfect - thoughts after testing. Still wm hits can turn fights into T's favor. Also, now people add upgraded thors to counter mutas. I feel pretty good with a new stuff! Tank change is awesome too.
Huh? Did I miss something? Thors aren't boosted. They are now not nearly good enough against mutas, so why would you possibly want to add them after this patch? A bit less like tanks, but same idea, they ruin the mobility of your army. If you want them added you first need thor anti-air attack really boosted.
Quite frankly I don't see how they think heavily nerfing terran in TvZ when the winrate is around 50/50 is a good idea. And yes I know winrate isn't everything, but it does mean if it is fairly close to 50% you need to compensate nerfs with boosts in other areas. And now that isn't done (no a tad faster tank cycle time is not comparable to the WM nerf, it will also mainly affect TvT).
Well bio mine thor tank is pretty strong. Zerg needs to stack his muta vs mines. Thors destroy stacked mutas...
i really don't understand why blizzard don't like bio/mine play. there is so much action all over the place and so much micro potential on both sides. just look at drg vs innovation or at soulkey vs innovation from wcs kr ro8 in S2. in the thread with the best games in hots are 30 from 62 games tvz's, so it's definitly the best matchup to watch and with the overseer buff it seems to be very balanced, so i just don't understand why blizzard wants to change the matchup.
with marine/tank everything comes down to one timing push by the terran. if it fails the zerg wins and if it is succesful the terran wins, it's just so boring. why the hell blizz wants to see that??? instead of destroying the most entertaining and most balanced matchup, blizz should concentrate on fixing tvp where scv pull is the only chance to win for terran.
On October 04 2013 22:01 The_best32 wrote: i really don't understand why blizzard don't like bio/mine play. there is so much action all over the place and so much micro potential on both sides. just look at drg vs innovation or at soulkey vs innovation from wcs kr ro8 in S2. in the thread with the best games in hots are 30 from 62 games tvz's, so it's definitly the best matchup to watch and with the overseer buff it seems to be very balanced, so i just don't understand why blizzard wants to change the matchup.
with marine/tank everything comes down to one timing push by the terran. if it fails the zerg wins and if it is succesful the terran wins, it's just so boring. why the hell blizz wants to see that??? instead of destroying the most entertaining and most balanced matchup, blizz should concentrate on fixing tvp where scv pull is the only chance to win for terran.
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
On October 04 2013 22:01 The_best32 wrote: i really don't understand why blizzard don't like bio/mine play. there is so much action all over the place and so much micro potential on both sides. just look at drg vs innovation or at soulkey vs innovation from wcs kr ro8 in S2. in the thread with the best games in hots are 30 from 62 games tvz's, so it's definitly the best matchup to watch and with the overseer buff it seems to be very balanced, so i just don't understand why blizzard wants to change the matchup.
with marine/tank everything comes down to one timing push by the terran. if it fails the zerg wins and if it is succesful the terran wins, it's just so boring. why the hell blizz wants to see that??? instead of destroying the most entertaining and most balanced matchup, blizz should concentrate on fixing tvp where scv pull is the only chance to win for terran.
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
4M micro vs biomech deathball stuff, deathball stuff is far more boring.
On October 04 2013 22:01 The_best32 wrote: i really don't understand why blizzard don't like bio/mine play. there is so much action all over the place and so much micro potential on both sides. just look at drg vs innovation or at soulkey vs innovation from wcs kr ro8 in S2. in the thread with the best games in hots are 30 from 62 games tvz's, so it's definitly the best matchup to watch and with the overseer buff it seems to be very balanced, so i just don't understand why blizzard wants to change the matchup.
with marine/tank everything comes down to one timing push by the terran. if it fails the zerg wins and if it is succesful the terran wins, it's just so boring. why the hell blizz wants to see that??? instead of destroying the most entertaining and most balanced matchup, blizz should concentrate on fixing tvp where scv pull is the only chance to win for terran.
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
4M micro vs biomech deathball stuff, deathball stuff is far more boring.
Biomech isn't deathball, have you never watched TvT?
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Yeah, because the 150/100 armory + upgrade costs is "free". I wonder what you could call the 150minerals, low tech forge that upgrades all your ground units (which are the only ones you use in PvT anyway)...
but oh, that's right, more dumb and costly upgrades for Terran means more "decision making and depth" in the game YAY!
I like all the changes, I wish for a bigger Tank buff and improved Thor as well because right now I think Terran will struggle in TvZ vs Mutas, but I guess we'll see.
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Yeah, because the 150/100 armory + upgrade costs is "free". I wonder what you could call the 150minerals, low tech forge that upgrades all your ground units (which are the only ones you use in PvT anyway)...
but oh, that's right, more dumb and costly upgrades for Terran means more "decision making and depth" in the game YAY!
I like all the changes, I wish for a bigger Tank buff and improved Thor as well because right now I think Terran will struggle in TvZ vs Mutas, but I guess we'll see.
You are allowed to call everything free in this game since HotS. Examples: Everything that only costs energy or time. Spore crawlers. Low Tier units in the lategame. Siege Mode. etc. So yeah, the viking gets free upgrades now. (and probably has ever done so!)
Oracle buff is fine but this is not the most interesting way to do so. Speed buff will be pretty big, for example it can safely run away from mutalisks now which has a good chance of letting the oracle replace the phoenix as de facto harass option in PvZ. 1 oracle can go for queens right away and arrives much faster than 4 phoenix do and at a much lower cost. For hunting overlords you simply get a voidray or two then. Phoenixes are much better at stopping/preventing the mutalisk switch and they harassed better but with oracle buff the mutalisk change is less scary (easier to scout it out and you don't lose your oracle). In return oracle + voids is much better for taking a fast third as they are actually useful against lings/roaches while phoenix opener into third is quite tough usually forcing P to wait till robo tech first and consequently having a lot of trouble with 200/200 roach/hydra pushes with viper or corruptor backup. All in all a very cool change but I still rather see revelation dropped and have an actually cool and useful spell on the oracle, perhaps one requiring an upgrade. The spell is sort of "i can't harass anymore so might as well do something" but still just really boring and bland. Envision is kind of needed to give the stargate tech tree some detection but the oracle needs more use than just a worker harasser really. Envision and revelation should have been 1 vision/detection spell (for example let envision give vision of the area for 30 seconds even after the oracle has gone so you can fly over and scout a base for a longer time. The third ability could have been something cool then, like a disable static defense ability or a building attack or whatever. As it stands oracle will still be a gimmicky harass unit that works nicely for some openings and get's shut down pretty hard by static defense afterwards while functioning as a glorified observer later.
Tank and widow mine change look pretty fine. Can't judge the numbers but if it works to create a mix of mines and tanks it's pretty cool. Widow mine nerf seems too big though, they are overpowered slightly at the moment but only in TvZ and too useless everywhere else. I think it would be fair to buff their aoe damage in return for this lower area, a damage buff doesn't affect their use against lings/banes at all because they get overkilled but keeps their power against muta's and potentially makes them better against protoss and terran. For example they'd be fun worker harassers in TvT but still balanced as their aoe is smaller. Alternatively I like to see them being a bit easier to micro, for example just allowing stop micro. The annoyance with them now is that even amongst pro's the hits are really random and determine outcomes of battles hugely.
The mech/air combination is still awful. Sure mech may become good because of it but it's a boring mech where the counter to air is vikings... Vikings and most other anti-air air units are incredibly boring because there is no cool positioning going on. The thor anti-air needs buffing, that way you can actually see cool positioning stuff of tempest/carrier vs mech ground etc but now mech just makes vikings instead.. Even worse about it is that mech will just dominate TvT now, the subtle balance between bio and mech is cool and all mech wars is truly boring. Bio before has the mobility advantage and could always go to an air switch if mech truly turtled too much but if mech has an 3-3 air advantage vs 0-0 bio's air that is just impossible. Thor air buff would be much more interesting as mech would have the AA it needs for TvZ/TvP but would still have trouble with BC's in TvT because yamato could counter thors.. The combination of the upgrades doesn't even help mech enough in TvZ and TvP probably, surprise muta's would still be super hard to stop for example and roaches get a good buff with the tunneling claws.
Roach change is awesome though, probably won't do all that much but making the roach more interesting is always a good thing. Hopefully this puts the nail in the coffin to those rediculous mass sentry all-ins you still see in PvZ from time to time while the oracle buff hopefully let's P play a little better and more diverse in macro games.
All in all not too bad but could be better, ZvZ hopefully a bit better with more roach micro but still too much roach wars i'm afraid ZvT looks like an awesome improvement with tanks replacing or sharing the role with widow mines, perhaps even full on mech. ZvP looks like a good improvement with roach shenanigans and more oracle play (which is slightly more exciting than phoenix i guess). PvT probably doesn't change much but slightly more oracle usage and hellbats becoming popular to mix in lategame again. I doubt mech will be strong enough here still but who knows, overall solid improvement. PvP more stargate which i'm not particularely fond off. Stargate play is cool but stargate vs stargate ends in the dullest phoenix wars which are just boring. Stargate openers kinda prevent colossus play as well making it just more zealot/archon/immortal endgames. I'd say this matchup get's slightly worse. TvT looks to lose the most here. Can't imagine anything else than full on mech wars now with sieged positions being even harder to break. Widow mines become even more useless here and air dominance become a bigger thing since sieged up positions are easier to hold, medivacs die even faster to vikings and BC's/banshee's kill much faster against ground now. I'm afraid this turns into early WoL like matches with tanks holding the grounds and both sides building up viking/bc/raven armies, bumrushing the ground seems impossible if presieged tanks get even a bigger advantage and winning the air fight becomes even more crucial. This matchup probably becomes massively worse and much much longer on average.
Uh, to all the people saying mech will dominate TvT because of this...no, just no.
Here's how it goes:
-The bio player will be getting +vehicle weapons REGARDLESS because they'll Tanks in their army anyway, so their air switch will actually be STRONGER because of this. In response to that, the mech player will have upgrades Vikings to compensate, no changes here.
-The bio player will always bank a lot of gas and be able to do an air switch because of that, so now they'll also get free attack upgrades for their bcs/banshees or whatever because they were upgrading their Tanks throughout the game. They'll only lose on the armor upgrades in comparison to the mech player.
-Mech anti-air is horrible besides Vikings, and even though they are getting weapon upgrades now, Mech also needs Widow Mine support to fight skyterran, and since the splash radius is reduced by a lot they are going to be way worse against air units in general and especially BCs.
All in all, I think TvT will remain more or less the same, I actually think Mech will be worse in some situations compared to now, and better in others. And IMHO bio or bio/tank is overall stronger than Mech anyway.
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds.
I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds.
I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
reminds me of MMA kiting with bio and then thor drop against broodlords which strayed too far (think it was DRG)
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds.
I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
I actually meant the following deal: Look, when you want to snipe mine or tank you want to clump up your mutas, since you must make sure at least 10 shots (on 0 upgrades from either side) will reach mine before it fires off. Now imagine 1 thor shot on clumped up mutas? In fact thor does more splash to stacked mutas, than mines, does not kill any yet. 2 hits and mutas are essentially out of the game for a minute. And then it is ling bane (assuming ling bane muta) against tanky thor, tanks, mines and bio.
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play?
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play?
4M is actually was a 'side-effect' of attempt to make bio-mech work.
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play?
4M is actually was a 'side-effect' of attempt to make bio-mech work.
Not really. Widow mine was supposed to be a core terran unit after mech was left for dead. If anything it was a side effect of trying to sell HotS to terrans.
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Yeah no one makes them because they are so awesome vs mutas. Hint: They aren't. In WoL they were acceptable as counter to mutas. This largely depended on them doing some damage everytime mutas came in. In HotS this is largely ineffective since they regen anyway.
And don't try to make severely nerfing widow mine somehow into a terran boost.
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds.
I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
Which makes those medivacs useless outside their thor drop role, they aren't doing any healing while you are using them to kite. And really? It is fairly easy to hit and run 4 speed mutas with dropping thors from medivacs? That seems to me like a shitload of micro required to 'counter' mutas. In case you go pure mech there is also nothing stopping mutas from going directly over your army when you are putting thors in medivacs. And a little error and your medivac dies with thor in it.
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Yeah no one makes them because they are so awesome vs mutas. Hint: They aren't. In WoL they were acceptable as counter to mutas. This largely depended on them doing some damage everytime mutas came in. In HotS this is largely ineffective since they regen anyway.
And don't try to make severely nerfing widow mine somehow into a terran boost.
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds.
I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
Which makes those medivacs useless outside their thor drop role, they aren't doing any healing while you are using them to kite. And really? It is fairly easy to hit and run 4 speed mutas with dropping thors from medivacs? That seems to me like a shitload of micro required to 'counter' mutas. In case you go pure mech there is also nothing stopping mutas from going directly over your army when you are putting thors in medivacs. And a little error and your medivac dies with thor in it.
First, i did not say they are awesome against mutas. I said they are awesome against stacked mutas. How to make mutas stack? build widow mines. Yes, suddenly it seems clear to me, that Blizzard's intent is a bio-mech with heavier emphasis on mech units, than usual marine-tank. Also, do not try to make it seem like you can regen result of 2 thor volleys in a second. Hint: 2 thor volleys most likely do at least 96 damage to mutas. Next, to kite 4 speed mutas with speed-boosted medivacs you need MUCH less micro than you think.
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play?
The problem is that 4M and Bio is so good that the meta will never change.
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Yeah no one makes them because they are so awesome vs mutas. Hint: They aren't. In WoL they were acceptable as counter to mutas. This largely depended on them doing some damage everytime mutas came in. In HotS this is largely ineffective since they regen anyway.
And don't try to make severely nerfing widow mine somehow into a terran boost.
On October 05 2013 00:34 FeyFey wrote:
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds.
I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
Which makes those medivacs useless outside their thor drop role, they aren't doing any healing while you are using them to kite. And really? It is fairly easy to hit and run 4 speed mutas with dropping thors from medivacs? That seems to me like a shitload of micro required to 'counter' mutas. In case you go pure mech there is also nothing stopping mutas from going directly over your army when you are putting thors in medivacs. And a little error and your medivac dies with thor in it.
First, i did not say they are awesome against mutas. I said they are awesome against stacked mutas. How to make mutas stack? build widow mines. Yes, suddenly it seems clear to me, that Blizzard's intent is a bio-mech with heavier emphasis on mech units, than usual marine-tank. Also, do not try to make it seem like you can regen result of 2 thor volleys in a second. Hint: 2 thor volleys most likely do at least 96 damage to mutas. Next, to kite 4 speed mutas with speed-boosted medivacs you need MUCH less micro than you think.
Euhm yeah, to kite them with medivacs you dont need much micro. To kite them with medivacs which drop and pick up thors while you don't like your entire army dying at the same time takes a shitton of micro.
And really, you think zergs are going to stack all their mutas to let them all die to thors to save a few from WMs? If that is such an awesome tactic, why doesn't anyone use it now? Idea: Because it is simply way worse than what we current have. And 2 thors doing 96 damage to mutas? Yeah to one muta they are targeting. But not to his friends. Hoping they all clump up so thors kill the whole bunch of them is unrealistic.
Even if it would be true what you say, that blizzards intent is bio-mech with more mech units, which apparantly you just thought of without any proof to back it up, then that scares me alot. Simply because everytime blizzard intents to do something they do exactly the opposite. They wanted to boost mech in HotS, see what the result was: A bit more used in TvT, still not used in TvP, killed in TvZ.
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play?
The problem is that 4M and Bio is so good that the meta will never change.
It is so good compared to the alternative. And that is the entire problem in Blizzards thinking. They want to remove 4M as viable option, but they don't come with an alternative. 10% faster cycle time for siege tanks simply doesn't cut it.
And looking at how close the matchup currently is, a large overall nerf is not what is needed.
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Yeah, because the 150/100 armory + upgrade costs is "free". I wonder what you could call the 150minerals, low tech forge that upgrades all your ground units (which are the only ones you use in PvT anyway)...
but oh, that's right, more dumb and costly upgrades for Terran means more "decision making and depth" in the game YAY!
I like all the changes, I wish for a bigger Tank buff and improved Thor as well because right now I think Terran will struggle in TvZ vs Mutas, but I guess we'll see.
You are allowed to call everything free in this game since HotS. Examples: Everything that only costs energy or time. Spore crawlers. Low Tier units in the lategame. Siege Mode. etc. So yeah, the viking gets free upgrades now. (and probably has ever done so!)
I don't even understand how it's possible for you to argue against this? if you're upgrading vehicle weapons or plating anyway, Viking does get free upgrades. This is not even debatable. If Zerg got a free carapace upgrade every time they researched melee attack, would you bring up the cost of building an Evolution Chamber? How does that even make any sense in the slightest? They haven't been getting them for ever, in fact it's a new change introduced by this testmap
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Yeah no one makes them because they are so awesome vs mutas. Hint: They aren't. In WoL they were acceptable as counter to mutas. This largely depended on them doing some damage everytime mutas came in. In HotS this is largely ineffective since they regen anyway.
And don't try to make severely nerfing widow mine somehow into a terran boost.
On October 05 2013 00:34 FeyFey wrote:
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds.
I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
Which makes those medivacs useless outside their thor drop role, they aren't doing any healing while you are using them to kite. And really? It is fairly easy to hit and run 4 speed mutas with dropping thors from medivacs? That seems to me like a shitload of micro required to 'counter' mutas. In case you go pure mech there is also nothing stopping mutas from going directly over your army when you are putting thors in medivacs. And a little error and your medivac dies with thor in it.
First, i did not say they are awesome against mutas. I said they are awesome against stacked mutas. How to make mutas stack? build widow mines. Yes, suddenly it seems clear to me, that Blizzard's intent is a bio-mech with heavier emphasis on mech units, than usual marine-tank. Also, do not try to make it seem like you can regen result of 2 thor volleys in a second. Hint: 2 thor volleys most likely do at least 96 damage to mutas. Next, to kite 4 speed mutas with speed-boosted medivacs you need MUCH less micro than you think.
Euhm yeah, to kite them with medivacs you dont need much micro. To kite them with medivacs which drop and pick up thors while you don't like your entire army dying at the same time takes a shitton of micro.
And really, you think zergs are going to stack all their mutas to let them all die to thors to save a few from WMs? If that is such an awesome tactic, why doesn't anyone use it now? Idea: Because it is simply way worse than what we current have. And 2 thors doing 96 damage to mutas? Yeah to one muta they are targeting. But not to his friends. Hoping they all clump up so thors kill the whole bunch of them is unrealistic.
Even if it would be true what you say, that blizzards intent is bio-mech with more mech units, which apparantly you just thought of without any proof to back it up, then that scares me alot. Simply because everytime blizzard intents to do something they do exactly the opposite. They wanted to boost mech in HotS, see what the result was: A bit more used in TvT, still not used in TvP, killed in TvZ.
So i suppose you have never seen widow mine and medivac sniping with medivacs, yea right, that ridiculous stack of mutas, that killls mines before they go off. Also, i have seen thor added in 4M TvZ at least 3 times. Also, i just judge from direction those changes seem to be going.
Sniping widow mines with medivacs? I assume you mean mutas. I have seen that obviouly. I just don't believe any zerg is stupid enough to stack all his mutas to snipe a WM when in range of thors. If they got enough they accept the WM loss and magic box the thors. If they don't they use their nice 4 speed to attack somewhere else.
Also if you want a nice counter for those mutas to use: Send in few overseers first. If thors fire on them their shots are wasted. WM shots on them are wasted. That way they dont have to stack their mutas vs WMs.
On October 05 2013 06:08 Sissors wrote: Sniping widow mines with medivacs? I assume you mean mutas. I have seen that obviouly. I just don't believe any zerg is stupid enough to stack all his mutas to snipe a WM when in range of thors. If they got enough they accept the WM loss and magic box the thors. If they don't they use their nice 4 speed to attack somewhere else.
Also if you want a nice counter for those mutas: Send in few overseers first. If thors fire on them their shots are wasted. WM shots on them are wasted.
And really you make alot of assumptions from some blizzard changes.
Yeah, mutas, my mind is kinda tired at the moment. WM loss however has one 'small' problem. It reduces muta count against marines. Few overseers? What overseers? Those, that get obliterated in seconds by marines? Well, it's not like their changes are that complicated to understand.
This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
On October 05 2013 06:53 archwaykitten wrote: This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
So I played a zvp against a masters Protoss and I have to say the oracle is fine. If you scout the stargate nothing changes and a queen + spore in position will be enough to defend. The oracles will live longer and get away from hydras etc. more often but that's what was supposed to happen and you can counter revelation with burrow so it's not imba in the mid game. I think we will see them more often in the lategame with tempests now and that's cool.
Also played some zvz and roach vs roach is crazy now. You need detection against burrow runbys everywhere and it's really annoying to deal with roaches in you mineral lines, but well, I think you can get used to it and more action is good I guess.
Didn't get to play Terran yet and didn't try a mass burrow roach allin in zvp yet, since stargate openings with oracle into voids kinda prevents it.
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Yeah, because the 150/100 armory + upgrade costs is "free". I wonder what you could call the 150minerals, low tech forge that upgrades all your ground units (which are the only ones you use in PvT anyway)...
but oh, that's right, more dumb and costly upgrades for Terran means more "decision making and depth" in the game YAY!
I like all the changes, I wish for a bigger Tank buff and improved Thor as well because right now I think Terran will struggle in TvZ vs Mutas, but I guess we'll see.
You are allowed to call everything free in this game since HotS. Examples: Everything that only costs energy or time. Spore crawlers. Low Tier units in the lategame. Siege Mode. etc. So yeah, the viking gets free upgrades now. (and probably has ever done so!)
I don't even understand how it's possible for you to argue against this? if you're upgrading vehicle weapons or plating anyway, Viking does get free upgrades. This is not even debatable. If Zerg got a free carapace upgrade every time they researched melee attack, would you bring up the cost of building an Evolution Chamber? How does that even make any sense in the slightest? They haven't been getting them for ever, in fact it's a new change introduced by this testmap
if marines and marauders had separate upgrades and then they were combined it wouldn't be "free upgrades," it would just be a change to the game mechanics, which is exactly what this is
there's no point in using the language "free" unless you want to connote that it's somehow unfair. any buff is "free" because blizzard is changing the game to make something more powerful/convenient/otherwise beneficial to the player. saying it's "free" adds nothing to the discussion. if you buff a unit's hp that's "free hp." so what? that's the point of buffs
On October 05 2013 08:23 Musicus wrote: Didn't get to play Terran yet and didn't try a mass burrow roach allin in zvp yet, since stargate openings with oracle into voids kinda prevents it.
i'm hoping the burrow upgrade will facilitate retreat micro more than all in styles tbh. a viable zerg 2 base all in would be nice (would be sort of like blink all-in, maybe?), but i'm more interested in things like roach runbys to unwalled protoss third bases, burrowing back in zvz roach wars, etc
On October 05 2013 08:23 Musicus wrote: Didn't get to play Terran yet and didn't try a mass burrow roach allin in zvp yet, since stargate openings with oracle into voids kinda prevents it.
i'm hoping the burrow upgrade will facilitate retreat micro more than all in styles tbh. a viable zerg 2 base all in would be nice (would be sort of like blink all-in, maybe?), but i'm more interested in things like roach runbys to unwalled protoss third bases, burrowing back in zvz roach wars, etc
Yeah would be nice to see that, but at least I couldn't pull it off and it doesn't work like blink imo since there is always detection in roach vs roach now. It felt like the roaches still got picked off most of the time after borrowing them and you lost too much dps if they survived and unborrowed later. It's also way more actions then blinking, but maybe high level players can still pull it off.
In zvp the cannons stopped most of my burrow runbys, you first have to pick of the cannon and then the army will be there. Next time there will be 4 cannons. But I think it will have a big impact on roaches vs forcefields, whether offensive or defensive, but I only played against air heavy compositions with very few sentries.
I know that fun has no place in a TL balance testing thread, but it was a lot of fun using the roaches new speed while burrowed buff! I hope that stays in, you can YOLO packs of roaches into armies who know you're coming and unborrow so you get the most dps possible, it's tight.
On October 05 2013 06:53 archwaykitten wrote: This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
the widow mine nerf and burrow move speed is make the game heavily imbalanced in favor of zerg. this is as bad as the infestor buff in wol, if not worse. the widow mine needs more range and roaches need to be slower underground.
On October 05 2013 06:53 archwaykitten wrote: This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
The mutas can just snipe the medivac then.
Unless the thor is heavily upgraded or mutas are clumped, very few number of mutas are actually required to kill a thor with minimal losses. The danger in thors come from engagements and from harass where clumping is more likely.
On October 05 2013 06:53 archwaykitten wrote: This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
The mutas can just snipe the medivac then.
Unless the thor is heavily upgraded or mutas are clumped, very few number of mutas are actually required to kill a thor with minimal losses. The danger in thors come from engagements and from harass where clumping is more likely.
Mutas on move auto split. Thanks to AI.
Also All changes with +60% con and 30% pro are voted by race-played :D
On October 04 2013 22:01 The_best32 wrote: i really don't understand why blizzard don't like bio/mine play. there is so much action all over the place and so much micro potential on both sides. just look at drg vs innovation or at soulkey vs innovation from wcs kr ro8 in S2. in the thread with the best games in hots are 30 from 62 games tvz's, so it's definitly the best matchup to watch and with the overseer buff it seems to be very balanced, so i just don't understand why blizzard wants to change the matchup.
with marine/tank everything comes down to one timing push by the terran. if it fails the zerg wins and if it is succesful the terran wins, it's just so boring. why the hell blizz wants to see that??? instead of destroying the most entertaining and most balanced matchup, blizz should concentrate on fixing tvp where scv pull is the only chance to win for terran.
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
4M micro vs biomech deathball stuff, deathball stuff is far more boring.
Biomech isn't deathball, have you never watched TvT?
TLDR type post. all i say imho: now in TvZ, Terran is favored but this is ok, after this patch Zerg will be favored and even more if changes stays the same because dealing with Tanks is easy task for HotS Zerg overall. TvZ according to September is ok or a bit Z favored. Patch will WORSE current game state. i would implement 1)Vehicle 2)Roaches 3)Oracle only
On October 05 2013 06:53 archwaykitten wrote: This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
The mutas can just snipe the medivac then.
yea but if we look at the best PvT we even have toss going warp prism storm in the PvT engagement where there are storms and marines everywhere
That is a quite different situation that really isn't comparable.
For one you barely ever see it happening tbh. (I assume you mean keeping HTs in prism to prevent them from feedback, which happens, but not that often). Then if you want to do the same, you would be filling a speed prism with HTs to hunt down a retreating terran army. I have never seen any toss doing that. Probably because of the same issue: stim some marines and take down the warp prism, goodbye HTs.
Then there is also the difference of HP. HTs are weaker than warp prisms. So stopping them in a warp prism isn't that dangerous. While medivacs are alot weaker than thors.
On October 03 2013 12:51 bittman wrote: Only reason I'm neutral with the roach thing is that it feels like Blizzards answer seems to be to just keep making things walk faster and faster. I'd prefer different approaches. I like the slow roach crawl hehe
Burrow I guess I'm a bit fine (mainly because it feels really underpowered before) but I agree in general about making things faster.
The Oracle change, you need to look at what it does and what it benefits from faster movement. The Oracle concept itself is nice but what it actually does (destroy worker lines really fast and can change the tide of the game in an instant) is a huge problem in SC2.
Edit - For some reason, I forgot about Revelation (ironically since it's in the patch note itself) and focused simply on Pulsar Beam (which when just against workers, faster speed doesn't really help much except maybe the occasional early game oracle rush but that usually done with proxy star gates anyway). The speed helps Oracle scouting + Revelation more so than than it destroying worker lines. The speed change with the Oracle I am fine with in that case. We'll see what it does. So disregard my comment about it (I forgot about Revelation, even though it was in the patch notes, for some reason >.>).
Anyway, what I was saying not specific to the Oracle (and in fact, the oracle change is fine) but with SC2 in general. That most of the difficulty in things comes with speed but yet that's the only thing. We have overpowered things in SC2 but yet the difficulty in controlling (and countering against them) and how huge of an impact of the game they have is a problem.
Widow Mines are an example (the difference between a good widow mine hit compared to a bad hit is enough difference to change the outcome of an entire battle and potentially the entire game). Though since they're nerfing it, at least Blizzard understands (though I said this before, I think I would rather them adding a max target cap on it and/or slowing down the speed of the projectile a bit but we'll have to see what this radius nerf does first).
Widow Mines (like Banelings and other huge AoE stuff against clumps of units) are also supposed to promote micro and provide a challenge. It does but it's not very practical to split marines or micro zerglings and stuff against widow mines (for example).
I said this before but micro in SC2 is mostly just how fast you can do things. Outside of speed, it doesn't have as much depth. And in fact, lots of people lately have been catching on that SC2 is actually way too fast (battles that win or lose games can occur in 10 seconds or less, which is not enough time for most people to react). The game being hard doesn't mean the game has depth (and depth is important). Deep games are probably also difficult to master. However, difficult games are not necessarily deep games (it depends on what was done to make the game difficult).
In BW, micro wasn't simply about speed (nor was it the important thing most of the time actually) but about precision and depth.
Mutalisk are a good example. When microing Mutalisk, you have to pay attention to what direction the Mutalisk is facing (before attacking, depending on which unit command you use) and distance between the Mutalisk and the target, etc. And after taking all that into account, you have to decide whether to use attack move, attack (directly), patrol, hold position, etc.
I could go in more depth but anyone who has played BW can also vouch and say that Mutalisk micro was just very deep.
There was so many decisions you can make and so many ways to improve, and it was practical and easy micro to do.
You didn't need super quick speed or anything to start microing Mutalisk against scourge or marines or whatever.
It had a ton of depth and it was easy (and practical) to learn too.
Compared to SC2 where all micro is "how fast you do it", it's really watered down in comparison.
Again, I don't blame Blizzard or anything, I think HotS was a good experiment but I really think some key gameplay mechanics from BW should return in SC2 (yes, most of them were accidental but look at most competitive games like fighting games or FPS, a lot of them have "accidental" deep gameplay mechanics but they end up being encouraged by the developers in later installments).
I remember reading here that BW was doing #6 place in PC bangs in South Korea while SC2 (after HotS) was only doing at #11.
If BW is still beating SC2, then something is wrong.
I think it is very important to emphasis the difference in gameplay and depth in BW compared to SC2.
Using "whether it is hard to do or not" as a gauge to judge whether it is deep or not is wrong.
SC2, microing is hard and the skill ceiling is high but what does it all come down to? Simply how fast you can split marines or whatever.
BW was hard but at the same time it has depth.
SC2 microing is hard but it doesn't have much depth compared to BW.
Just want some food for thought as I know Blizzard can't change anything big until LotV (these small changes I am fine in HotS). Again, it's very important to emphasis that depth =/= difficulty. While SC2 has difficulty in micro, it doesn't have as much depth as BW and depth in difficulty (not just difficulty by itself) is a key part in what helps make a game fun.
On top of that, many korean ppl don't play sc2 much because sc2 is not casual friendly. the pc bang isn't popular for sc2 because you need to purchase the game first (unlike lol and other games) and also pays pc bang fee. Bw however, you don't have to purchase to play in pc bang because battle net id for bw is free.
the fact that there is no LAN and difficulty to play match with friend also discourage casual players. And try playing team game in bw. It is A LOT MORE FUN. Trust me.
this is going to destroy so many terrans Im high master (rank 4 atm) I have 64% win vs toss 71% vs terran and 34 vs zerg :/ I just feel that if the 11 minute push doesnt do any damage your so far behind, especially when mutas come out since I feel like I cant harass at all due to them just flying to the medivac and killing it in 2 seconds and when the mine is on CD they just roll straight into my army and no amount of splitting helps and everything gets torn to bits Not had a chance to play test map but since it seems that zergs have a good grip on how to beat mine marine medivac I think the nerf is just going to wreck terrans so hard
On October 05 2013 21:59 skiersteve wrote: this is going to destroy so many terrans Im high master (rank 4 atm) I have 64% win vs toss 71% vs terran and 34 vs zerg :/ I just feel that if the 11 minute push doesnt do any damage your so far behind, especially when mutas come out since I feel like I cant harass at all due to them just flying to the medivac and killing it in 2 seconds and when the mine is on CD they just roll straight into my army and no amount of splitting helps and everything gets torn to bits Not had a chance to play test map but since it seems that zergs have a good grip on how to beat mine marine medivac I think the nerf is just going to wreck terrans so hard
There must be something wrong with your TvZ...
I am not saying T should always win easily, but if you have 70% WR in a MU and <40% in another one, balance has nothing to do with it most likely^^
On October 05 2013 21:59 skiersteve wrote: this is going to destroy so many terrans Im high master (rank 4 atm) I have 64% win vs toss 71% vs terran and 34 vs zerg :/ I just feel that if the 11 minute push doesnt do any damage your so far behind, especially when mutas come out since I feel like I cant harass at all due to them just flying to the medivac and killing it in 2 seconds and when the mine is on CD they just roll straight into my army and no amount of splitting helps and everything gets torn to bits Not had a chance to play test map but since it seems that zergs have a good grip on how to beat mine marine medivac I think the nerf is just going to wreck terrans so hard
There must be something wrong with your TvZ...
I am not saying T should always win easily, but if you have 70% WR in a MU and <40% in another one, balance has nothing to do with it most likely^^
It's actually quite common in TvX at least, there's been talk about it in the Ask Terran threads and overall... I know that my win rate right now has roughly stabalized but it's usually 60-65% one, 55-50% another and then a 35-40% in the 3rd. I think a big part of it is that all 3 match ups take pretty distinct playstyles that you might not be totally used to. TvZ for example is a micro war and to an extent positioning. TvT is pure positioning while TvP is more control than anything else. TvP micro is nothing compared to what you have to do in TvZ. Even stuff before the fight in TvZ is splitting of units with a spread, while TvP is a nice spread/semi circle before you go in.
With that being said, it's not too often about balance, but about how a player looks at a MU or how a player plays and knows the other race's transitions. It sure isn't going to make it any easier though.
Does anyone actually find the tank changes particularly noticeable? I've played a few games with them - I'm not sure the increased firing rate is a big boost at all, to be honest.
On October 06 2013 01:12 Mjolnir wrote: Does anyone actually find the tank changes particularly noticeable? I've played a few games with them - I'm not sure the increased firing rate is a big boost at all, to be honest.
Then again, I am dirt league.
Just wondering how others feel about it.
It will matter against any low hitpoint targets like banelings and marines. One more volley is a huge deal in those engagements. Stalkers will also take a huge hit, since a second and third shot will cut deep into their HP. It does seem slight though and I bet Blizzard could make it shoot a little faster.
On October 06 2013 01:12 Mjolnir wrote: Does anyone actually find the tank changes particularly noticeable? I've played a few games with them - I'm not sure the increased firing rate is a big boost at all, to be honest.
Then again, I am dirt league.
Just wondering how others feel about it.
It will matter against any low hitpoint targets like banelings and marines. One more volley is a huge deal in those engagements. Stalkers will also take a huge hit, since a second and third shot will cut deep into their HP. It does seem slight though and I bet Blizzard could make it shoot a little faster.
I agree that I think they could still get away with shooting faster (I'd rather more damage) - the difference is extremely minimal in most of the engagements I've had thus far.
I will say this about the patch, though: the burrowed roach speed buff is going to make forcefields a joke. It's almost as good as being able to walk right through them.
I hear a few people in here saying "just add bonus shield damage to tanks" and I just want to lend whole hearted support to that. Do it as an armoury upgrade if needed. I can't say how long I've thought this is the solution to the tvp no-mech, bio only problem ( that has been ongoing for how long now?). Tanks are the backbone of mech but they just don't cut it vs the Protoss deathball at the moment. Tank bonus damage to shields upgrade: tvp mech fixed. Done.
on the b.net forums, I posted a bunch of changes I'd love to test for tanks & mechanical units
- attack upgrades from the armory improve cooldown by 5% per level, reducing the reload time of all vehicle & ship weapons. this would scale siege mode attack speed to 3 seconds (+0), 2.85 (+1), 2.7 (+2), 2.55 (+3). - armor upgrades from the armory reduce the transformation time of all mechanical units by 15% per level (including hellions, vikings, thors & widow mines). this would scale siege mode transformation to 4 seconds (+0), 3.4 (+1), 2.8 (+2), 2.2 (+3). +3 vikings would take 1.65 seconds to land in assault mode. - 45 flat damage in siege mode. It's tragic to the point of hilarity that a +1 zergling survives a 120mm fucking cannon - remove transformation servos requirement... please
It's sad to see viking & hellion transformation on the back of a HotS case and none of it being viable in the game.
DeathBall problem isn't there aren't other harass ways to play, it is the DeathBall itselff is TOO GOOD. Why would you ever think about doing other things when you know DeathBall play can give you the win more than the rest of strats?
Te problem Protoss has is that they rely so much on AoE, that said we can see then 1) They NEED AoE to keep on the game 2) When they mix many source of AoE it is a pain on the *** 3) When they go to Stargate they are delaying their AoE
Meh, I see no point on making suggestion, I hope DK realize it himself how to fix the game =/
Anyway the main problem now are WidowMine and MotherCore, and I don't see MotherCore being touch...
Protoss:Oracle changes: I really dislike the speed buff.Not everything has to be faster.The Acceleration on the other hand is nice so the unit can get away quicker.If they wanna promote the microability of this unit they should lower the HP maybe and buff the shield like other players mentioned.I dont know about the revelation buff.The ability is already pretty strong and also lasts very long.Just to make other players use it more.If they dont use its their problem Terran:Armory changes: This could be intersting but Im a bit concerned that Bio players could abuse it a bit to switch to air against mech players if they upgrade their tanks too in TvT.Dont know about the other matchups.In TvZ it could help to snipe Vipers better with Vikings or the ground mode in general.Dont think this will change that much in TvP. Siege Tanks:I take EVERY buff for my favourite Unit as a mech player ()but I still think this is marginal.Maybe 2.5? Widow Mine:Hmmm dont know what to say here.I would rather have a 1 supply Mine that of course gets adjusted in terms of damage and radius so we have something against flanking. Zerg:Burrow change: The only grime I would have with this change is that Roaches get also a speed boost when they are burrowed UNDER Creep(Infestors get that too).Did no one ever notice that?Zerg units are supposed to get a speed bonus ON creep.Not when they are burrowed UNDER Creep.
On October 06 2013 13:48 SHODAN wrote: on the b.net forums, I posted a bunch of changes I'd love to test for tanks & mechanical units
- attack upgrades from the armory improve cooldown by 5% per level, reducing the reload time of all vehicle & ship weapons. this would scale siege mode attack speed to 3 seconds (+0), 2.85 (+1), 2.7 (+2), 2.55 (+3). - armor upgrades from the armory reduce the transformation time of all mechanical units by 15% per level (including hellions, vikings, thors & widow mines). this would scale siege mode transformation to 4 seconds (+0), 3.4 (+1), 2.8 (+2), 2.2 (+3). +3 vikings would take 1.65 seconds to land in assault mode. - 45 flat damage in siege mode. It's tragic to the point of hilarity that a +1 zergling survives a 120mm fucking cannon - remove transformation servos requirement... please
It's sad to see viking & hellion transformation on the back of a HotS case and none of it being viable in the game.
I have said this since they were nerfed in the beta. While I admit they were strong at the time, I'm quite sure that if those old tanks were put into the game as it is now, with the improved skill-ceiling and wildly different tactics, they wouldn't seem "OP" at all.
When tanks were nerfed back in beta people were just running at them with the same BW style comps that took out tanks from that game - plus some roaches. Protoss tried mass zealot stalker like BW's speedlot/dragoon at the expense of immortals.
I don't think upping tank damage to the way it was in beta would break the game any more than adding widow mines did - certainly not if there were some modifications to them (cost, firing time, etc.)
On October 06 2013 13:48 SHODAN wrote: on the b.net forums, I posted a bunch of changes I'd love to test for tanks & mechanical units
- attack upgrades from the armory improve cooldown by 5% per level, reducing the reload time of all vehicle & ship weapons. this would scale siege mode attack speed to 3 seconds (+0), 2.85 (+1), 2.7 (+2), 2.55 (+3). - armor upgrades from the armory reduce the transformation time of all mechanical units by 15% per level (including hellions, vikings, thors & widow mines). this would scale siege mode transformation to 4 seconds (+0), 3.4 (+1), 2.8 (+2), 2.2 (+3). +3 vikings would take 1.65 seconds to land in assault mode. - 45 flat damage in siege mode. It's tragic to the point of hilarity that a +1 zergling survives a 120mm fucking cannon - remove transformation servos requirement... please
It's sad to see viking & hellion transformation on the back of a HotS case and none of it being viable in the game.
I have said this since they were nerfed in the beta. While I admit they were strong at the time, I'm quite sure that if those old tanks were put into the game as it is now, with the improved skill-ceiling and wildly different tactics, they wouldn't seem "OP" at all.
When tanks were nerfed back in beta people were just running at them with the same BW style comps that took out tanks from that game - plus some roaches. Protoss tried mass zealot stalker like BW's speedlot/dragoon at the expense of immortals.
I don't think upping tank damage to the way it was in beta would break the game any more than adding widow mines did - certainly not if there were some modifications to them (cost, firing time, etc.)
copy/paste this to the b.net thread! maybe one day siege tanks will command the respect they deserve
On October 06 2013 13:48 SHODAN wrote: on the b.net forums, I posted a bunch of changes I'd love to test for tanks & mechanical units
- attack upgrades from the armory improve cooldown by 5% per level, reducing the reload time of all vehicle & ship weapons. this would scale siege mode attack speed to 3 seconds (+0), 2.85 (+1), 2.7 (+2), 2.55 (+3). - armor upgrades from the armory reduce the transformation time of all mechanical units by 15% per level (including hellions, vikings, thors & widow mines). this would scale siege mode transformation to 4 seconds (+0), 3.4 (+1), 2.8 (+2), 2.2 (+3). +3 vikings would take 1.65 seconds to land in assault mode. - 45 flat damage in siege mode. It's tragic to the point of hilarity that a +1 zergling survives a 120mm fucking cannon - remove transformation servos requirement... please
It's sad to see viking & hellion transformation on the back of a HotS case and none of it being viable in the game.
I have said this since they were nerfed in the beta. While I admit they were strong at the time, I'm quite sure that if those old tanks were put into the game as it is now, with the improved skill-ceiling and wildly different tactics, they wouldn't seem "OP" at all.
When tanks were nerfed back in beta people were just running at them with the same BW style comps that took out tanks from that game - plus some roaches. Protoss tried mass zealot stalker like BW's speedlot/dragoon at the expense of immortals.
I don't think upping tank damage to the way it was in beta would break the game any more than adding widow mines did - certainly not if there were some modifications to them (cost, firing time, etc.)
Exactly. I find it ridiculous that siege tanks (the name itself should instill fear) can be engaged directly by groups of zerglings and marines. The lack of mobility when playing mech would be a non-issue if it wasn't so damn easy to take out small groups of tanks.
On October 06 2013 13:48 SHODAN wrote: on the b.net forums, I posted a bunch of changes I'd love to test for tanks & mechanical units
- attack upgrades from the armory improve cooldown by 5% per level, reducing the reload time of all vehicle & ship weapons. this would scale siege mode attack speed to 3 seconds (+0), 2.85 (+1), 2.7 (+2), 2.55 (+3). - armor upgrades from the armory reduce the transformation time of all mechanical units by 15% per level (including hellions, vikings, thors & widow mines). this would scale siege mode transformation to 4 seconds (+0), 3.4 (+1), 2.8 (+2), 2.2 (+3). +3 vikings would take 1.65 seconds to land in assault mode.
That would be two large changes to upgrade mechanics. There is no chance Blizzard will ever consider this for LotV let alone a patch. Especially if their idea of a mech buff is 10% faster shooting tank and combined upgrades.
The more I think about it, the more I believe that mech will actually become weaker, not stronger with the patch.
10% more DPS for tanks is almost nothing compared to the massive nerf for window mines. A Tank/Widow mine or Tank/Hellbat/Widow mine combo will actually be weaker post patch compared to the current balance.
Combined upgrades will be useful in the opponent transitions into air, but widow mines were the key unit to combat air transitions, now widow mines will be much worse against air based armies.
People think that the widow mine nerf will nerf bio/mine but it will actually nerf mech just as much, maybe even more.
Maybe if Tanks got 20 or 25% more DPS mech would become viable outside of TvT. As it is I think mech will worse or at the very best, just as weak post patch.
On October 07 2013 02:34 MockHamill wrote: The more I think about it, the more I believe that mech will actually become weaker, not stronger with the patch.
10% more DPS for tanks is almost nothing compared to the massive nerf for window mines. A Tank/Widow mine or Tank/Hellbat/Widow mine combo will actually be weaker post patch compared to the current balance.
Combined upgrades will be useful in the opponent transitions into air, but widow mines were the key unit to combat air transitions, now widow mines will be much worse against air based armies.
People think that the widow mine nerf will nerf bio/mine but it will actually nerf mech just as much, maybe even more.
Maybe if Tanks got 20 or 25% more DPS mech would become viable outside of TvT. As it is I think mech will worse or at the very best, just as weak post patch.
Have to agree with you.
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
10% faster means the tank will now get 10 shots where it used to get 9. However, how many engagements last long enough for a tank to get 9 or 10 shots anyway? The most a tank will shoot is maybe 4 or 5 times. Therefore, this "buff" doesn't do much.
The widow mines, on the other hand, have a 50% radius nerf. That is enough to make a difference.
The only thing that helped mech here was the attack upgrade being shared with air, but one has to ask whether true mech consists of vikings/banshees/bcs anyway.
On October 07 2013 02:34 MockHamill wrote: The more I think about it, the more I believe that mech will actually become weaker, not stronger with the patch.
10% more DPS for tanks is almost nothing compared to the massive nerf for window mines. A Tank/Widow mine or Tank/Hellbat/Widow mine combo will actually be weaker post patch compared to the current balance.
Combined upgrades will be useful in the opponent transitions into air, but widow mines were the key unit to combat air transitions, now widow mines will be much worse against air based armies.
People think that the widow mine nerf will nerf bio/mine but it will actually nerf mech just as much, maybe even more.
Maybe if Tanks got 20 or 25% more DPS mech would become viable outside of TvT. As it is I think mech will worse or at the very best, just as weak post patch.
Have to agree with you.
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
10% faster means the tank will now get 10 shots where it used to get 9. However, how many engagements last long enough for a tank to get 9 or 10 shots anyway? The most a tank will shoot is maybe 4 or 5 times. Therefore, this "buff" doesn't do much.
The widow mines, on the other hand, have a 50% radius nerf. That is enough to make a difference.
The only thing that helped mech here was the attack upgrade being shared with air, but one has to ask whether true mech consists of vikings/banshees/bcs anyway.
No, 10% faster means that tank may now get a 2 shots where he would do 1, or 10 shots, where it would 10 anyways. Also, i always thought that main function of widow mines in mech TvT was to severely hurt BCs.
On October 07 2013 02:34 MockHamill wrote: The more I think about it, the more I believe that mech will actually become weaker, not stronger with the patch.
10% more DPS for tanks is almost nothing compared to the massive nerf for window mines. A Tank/Widow mine or Tank/Hellbat/Widow mine combo will actually be weaker post patch compared to the current balance.
Combined upgrades will be useful in the opponent transitions into air, but widow mines were the key unit to combat air transitions, now widow mines will be much worse against air based armies.
People think that the widow mine nerf will nerf bio/mine but it will actually nerf mech just as much, maybe even more.
Maybe if Tanks got 20 or 25% more DPS mech would become viable outside of TvT. As it is I think mech will worse or at the very best, just as weak post patch.
Have to agree with you.
I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
10% faster means the tank will now get 10 shots where it used to get 9. However, how many engagements last long enough for a tank to get 9 or 10 shots anyway? The most a tank will shoot is maybe 4 or 5 times. Therefore, this "buff" doesn't do much.
The widow mines, on the other hand, have a 50% radius nerf. That is enough to make a difference.
The only thing that helped mech here was the attack upgrade being shared with air, but one has to ask whether true mech consists of vikings/banshees/bcs anyway.
Ironically, smaller battles have the potential to buff Siege Tanks more than longer battles. If a Tank shoots 5 times instead of 4 times, it's a 20% buff. 4 instead of 3 is 25%, 3 instead of 2 is 33%, and 2 instead of 1 is 50%.
Ironically, smaller battles have the potential buff Siege Tanks more. If a Tank shoots 5 times instead of 4 times, it's a 20% buff. 4 instead of 3 is 25%, 3 instead of 2 is 33%, and 2 instead of 1 is 50%.
I think it is even better, 2 instead of 1 is 100% increase, 3 instead of 2 is 50% increase...etc. etc. So in certain situations it is a very big buff...for tanks having them set up and having sight range may prove to be an actually really big deal of buffing.
Ironically, smaller battles have the potential buff Siege Tanks more. If a Tank shoots 5 times instead of 4 times, it's a 20% buff. 4 instead of 3 is 25%, 3 instead of 2 is 33%, and 2 instead of 1 is 50%.
I think it is even better, 2 instead of 1 is 100% increase, 3 instead of 2 is 50% increase...etc. etc. So in certain situations it is a very big buff...for tanks having them set up and having sight range may prove to be an actually really big deal of buffing.
Oh right, sorry, I'm not the best at word problems either.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
On October 06 2013 13:48 SHODAN wrote: on the b.net forums, I posted a bunch of changes I'd love to test for tanks & mechanical units
- attack upgrades from the armory improve cooldown by 5% per level, reducing the reload time of all vehicle & ship weapons. this would scale siege mode attack speed to 3 seconds (+0), 2.85 (+1), 2.7 (+2), 2.55 (+3). - armor upgrades from the armory reduce the transformation time of all mechanical units by 15% per level (including hellions, vikings, thors & widow mines). this would scale siege mode transformation to 4 seconds (+0), 3.4 (+1), 2.8 (+2), 2.2 (+3). +3 vikings would take 1.65 seconds to land in assault mode.
That would be two large changes to upgrade mechanics. There is no chance Blizzard will ever consider this for LotV let alone a patch. Especially if their idea of a mech buff is 10% faster shooting tank and combined upgrades.
they might consider transformation speed as a stand-alone upgrade for the armory. you never know how far Blizz is prepared to tweak core game mechanics. the queen buff was a massive change to creep & production capabilities. the MSC was another radical change to diversify toss tech options. combining vehicle/ship is the most radical change Blizz have ever implemented on upgrades in starcraft. BW/WoL had some tweaks to cost/research time, but that's all. WC3 turned into a radically different game after its expansion. HotS --> LotV could be the same!
On October 06 2013 13:48 SHODAN wrote: on the b.net forums, I posted a bunch of changes I'd love to test for tanks & mechanical units
- attack upgrades from the armory improve cooldown by 5% per level, reducing the reload time of all vehicle & ship weapons. this would scale siege mode attack speed to 3 seconds (+0), 2.85 (+1), 2.7 (+2), 2.55 (+3). - armor upgrades from the armory reduce the transformation time of all mechanical units by 15% per level (including hellions, vikings, thors & widow mines). this would scale siege mode transformation to 4 seconds (+0), 3.4 (+1), 2.8 (+2), 2.2 (+3). +3 vikings would take 1.65 seconds to land in assault mode.
That would be two large changes to upgrade mechanics. There is no chance Blizzard will ever consider this for LotV let alone a patch. Especially if their idea of a mech buff is 10% faster shooting tank and combined upgrades.
they might consider transformation speed as a stand-alone upgrade for the armory. you never know how far Blizz is prepared to tweak core game mechanics. the queen buff was a massive change to creep & production capabilities. the MSC was another radical change to diversify toss tech options. combining vehicle/ship is the most radical change Blizz have ever implemented on upgrades in starcraft. BW/WoL had some tweaks to cost/research time, but that's all. WC3 turned into a radically different game after its expansion. HotS --> LotV could be the same!
The queen buff was never expected to be a major change and combining upgrades was well tested in the beta. Blizzard was not even willing to drop hallucination research during WoL and I have no faith that they are even willing to consider any major terran buff.
Mech simply doesn't fit into Blizzards new approach of making things more exciting by making them move faster. And even if it did - they have no sufficient understanding of it's working to do any better than they had in HotS so far.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
That's because mass mine is not a good solution against a opponent capable of rapid tech-switches. Some widow mines for defence were doable before as they dealt decent splash even when muta flock was unclumped but now their efficiency will be severely reduced. Since you can never tell at what number muta production stops mech player is forced to guess or commit blindly.
So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly.
On October 08 2013 11:56 lowercase wrote: So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly.
Well, they already made the dark shrine quite cheaper to get in HotS. I would have liked something like the movement buff instead of the costreduction, but I feel like both is overkill in TvP and maybe PvP.
On October 08 2013 11:56 lowercase wrote: So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly.
Well, they already made the dark shrine quite cheaper to get in HotS. I would have liked something like the movement buff instead of the costreduction, but I feel like both is overkill in TvP and maybe PvP.
Tired of the solution for everything is to just make it go faster.
That's all they do. Make units faster make upgrades cheaper/free.
There is absolutely no creative or outside the box thinking going on.
On October 08 2013 11:56 lowercase wrote: So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly.
Well, they already made the dark shrine quite cheaper to get in HotS. I would have liked something like the movement buff instead of the costreduction, but I feel like both is overkill in TvP and maybe PvP.
Tired of the solution for everything is to just make it go faster.
That's all they do. Make units faster make upgrades cheaper/free.
There is absolutely no creative or outside the box thinking going on.
On October 08 2013 11:56 lowercase wrote: So did they pull the DT movement speed buff already? I thought that was a bit interesting. Maybe a slight buff would help, not the huge speed boost they originally wanted. Or maybe nerf scan radius slightly.
Well, they already made the dark shrine quite cheaper to get in HotS. I would have liked something like the movement buff instead of the costreduction, but I feel like both is overkill in TvP and maybe PvP.
Tired of the solution for everything is to just make it go faster.
That's all they do. Make units faster make upgrades cheaper/free.
There is absolutely no creative or outside the box thinking going on.
The main (realistic) gameplay critique towards the end of WoL was how aggression didn't work. Thank the community for those kinds of buffs.
And well, it's not really true what you say: Fungal got turned into a projectile so it happens slower. They buffed ZvZ mutalisk defenses. They nerfed hellbats, particularily adressing early hellbat drops. They try to buff tank power, not speed or cost currently.
And for the stuff that they buffed: The Mutalisk speed change was minor. The Warp Prism speed change was mediocre. The big "faster" changes in HotS come down to the medivac boost and how strategies changed around the new/buffed units.
They are working on stuff that is too extreme, but it seems like there won't be any bigger balance changes for HotS anymore. And I can't blame them, after each time they change something for the sake of gameplay/diversity they have gotten huge amounts of shit from this community, that they should only ever change what's broken and leave everything else useless.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers.
But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers.
But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway.
wut?????? Replay of this, I want to see this situation where you can throw away a whole ultralisk army for half a Mech ball and win despite SC2's capped income not giving you any income advantage with full map control.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Out of all the issues mech has I think muta is the most dealable. IMHO (and from testmap + hots beta expirience) turret rings + mines + thors + pdd are still more than enough to deal with muta. The tank buff seems to help vs swarm host, maybe using more defensive planetaries next to your expensions + a couple tanks could actually work now. I guess the only real issue left is getting THE perfect mech build/opener and also having somebody with enough apm to spread tanks and unsiege/move/siege them vs binding cloud.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Out of all the issues mech has I think muta is the most dealable. IMHO (and from testmap + hots beta expirience) turret rings + mines + thors + pdd are still more than enough to deal with muta. The tank buff seems to help vs swarm host, maybe using more defensive planetaries next to your expensions + a couple tanks could actually work now. I guess the only real issue left is getting THE perfect mech build/opener and also having somebody with enough apm to spread tanks and unsiege/move/siege them vs binding cloud.
I agree, Viper timings to hit you just before you are abel to get any critical mass of Tank/Thor/Raven/Something is the real issue here. This + correct units ratio.. Slowly taking and securing bases is not problematic. Broodlord/Infestor is dealth with Ravens, Ultras are relatively easy to stop, Mutas are very gimmicky.. So Hydra/Roach/Viper timings + aggresive play (thinking roach drops/nydus) is the main issue.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers.
But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway.
wut?????? Replay of this, I want to see this situation where you can throw away a whole ultralisk army for half a Mech ball and win despite SC2's capped income not giving you any income advantage with full map control.
It happens. Maybe not with such numbers, but it really is win for Zerg to cut like 1/3 of upgraded mech army in late-late game scenario while losing way more in the same time. You don't want to go down just to drones obviously, but I have been in such scenarios. Depends on many factory, bases, bank, etc..
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers.
But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway.
wut?????? Replay of this, I want to see this situation where you can throw away a whole ultralisk army for half a Mech ball and win despite SC2's capped income not giving you any income advantage with full map control.
It happens. Maybe not with such numbers, but it really is win for Zerg to cut like 1/3 of upgraded mech army in late-late game scenario while losing way more in the same time. You don't want to go down just to drones obviously, but I have been in such scenarios. Depends on many factory, bases, bank, etc..
Obviously there are scenarios where you can trade inefficiently in this game. Especially for Zerg. But as you say, it depends on many factors, most of them being dependend on the actual game.
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers.
But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway.
wut?????? Replay of this, I want to see this situation where you can throw away a whole ultralisk army for half a Mech ball and win despite SC2's capped income not giving you any income advantage with full map control.
It happens. Maybe not with such numbers, but it really is win for Zerg to cut like 1/3 of upgraded mech army in late-late game scenario while losing way more in the same time. You don't want to go down just to drones obviously, but I have been in such scenarios. Depends on many factory, bases, bank, etc..
Obviously there are scenarios where you can trade inefficiently in this game. Especially for Zerg. But as you say, it depends on many factors, most of them being dependend on the actual game.
As a masters meching player myself I can say that this kind of thing is way more common than you'd think. As mech you are so confined and limited in gas income that a zerg that just takes every geyser on the map (gas income isn't capped) and can just literally throw ultras at you, trade VERY cost innefectively and still get a huge edge because you can't really counter attack to punish that.
I've had situations where a zerg would suicide ALL of their army just to barely kill a fortified third or forth base and it's still worth it for them. Swarm Hosts completely shutdown any non-air based mech play that tries to actually be agressive and active on the map, so you're pretty much forced into turtling hardcore and basically never attack until zerg runs out or resources (I'm assuming a good zerg player that plays correctly against mech, most zergs are clueless and you can actually kill them before that).
^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2
On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote: ^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2
So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over.
And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl, Idra played like a fool and deserved to lose, it's a shame that it takes a meching player a whole fucking hour or more to do that...oh well, I'm a patient guy so I don't mind.
HTOMario was leveling an account from 0 on KR server, and was playing against a lot of nubs. He was advertising like "87% w/l" on his stream, and when I went to watch it he was still getting matched against diamonds on some games...check his winrate now, I doubt it's 91%, and if he keeps playing it will obviously decrease as time goes on, to the point where he'll start getting destroyed way before he can get 20ravens. Raven-based mech isn't OP, it's the only way to mech properly against zergs that know better(not many) and even then it's not viable in pro-play.
Maybe ladder-zergs should stop playing on auto-pilot instead of QQing.
On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote: ^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2
So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over.
And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl
Maybe you, oh the great maestro of zerg, know the answer on how to fight turtling mech, assuming that terran actually turtles well.
On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote: ^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2
So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over.
And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl
Maybe you, oh the great maestro of zerg, know the answer on how to fight turtling mech, assuming that terran actually turtles well.
I don't play Zerg, but if you wanna go down that road...it doesn't take a genius zerg player to realize that mass corruptor/broodlord isn't going to fare well against 3-3 mass raven/viking. Not to mention avilo has a lot of experience and incredible macro in late game engagements, unlike SHs/BLs, Raven based compositions require a lot of micro and smart positioning instead of just a-moving and rallying free units, and whereas most people don't play 30+ minute games, experienced mech players have a lot of practice in late game engagements and get naturally better at it than other people.
A lot of people cry and shout that mech is the strongest strategy in TvT, and how bio won't be viable if the patch goes through etc etc. As a meching player myself, when I play pure bio in TvT against mech I actually find it much easier to win than when I'm meching against bio (which is my expertise), because I understand well how to exploit and can instantly recognize any weakness that shows up in any mech player.
If I started playing Zerg now, with the current experience I have, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be troublesome to beat mech. My TvZ games on the ladder are VERY one sided, both wins and losses, it's just that fewer players understand how to play against mech, some people think they are entitled to a win just because they have good mechanics and creep spread (spoiled zergs from imba WOL days maybe?), and keep charging head on into a huge tank like.
I literally get people raging at me, saying they should have won because they "macro well and have 2x my apm"...tough shit, gotta use your brain a little bit to beat mech instead of just playing autopilot builds/styles with300apm and good macro, , mech is true S in this RTS game.
On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote: ^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2
So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over.
And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl, Idra played like a fool and deserved to lose, it's a shame that it takes a meching player a whole fucking hour or more to do that...oh well, I'm a patient guy so I don't mind.
HTOMario was leveling an account from 0 on KR server, and was playing against a lot of nubs. He was advertising like "87% w/l" on his stream, and when I went to watch it he was still getting matched against diamonds on some games...check his winrate now, I doubt it's 91%, and if he keeps playing it will obviously decrease as time goes on, to the point where he'll start getting destroyed way before he can get 20ravens. Raven-based mech isn't OP, it's the only way to mech properly against zergs that know better(not many) and even then it's not viable in pro-play.
Maybe ladder-zergs should stop playing on auto-pilot instead of QQing.
I didn't even watch idra vs avilo game lol I am just pointing out that mech can be super cost efficient unlike what you said.
this is interesting, first you stated you are masters and put out your opinion. then you call off HTOmario, a GM in Korea because you think he isn't really in master? I don't know what to think man. Should league count anymore? So because he didn't get 91% win rate in TvZ, makes his pure meching in GM invalid?
I didn't even watch idra vs avilo game lol I am just pointing out that mech can be super cost efficient unlike what you said.
this is interesting, first you stated you are masters and put out your opinion. then you call off HTOmario, a GM in Korea because you think he isn't really in master? I don't know what to think man. Should league count anymore? So because he didn't get 91% win rate in TvZ, makes his pure meching in GM invalid?
WHAT? Where did I say he isn't in masters? I'm saying that his account at the start was being leveled with a brand new MMR and because of that he wasn't getting matched against equally skilled people at first and because of that he had an insane winrate on KR server (which is already decreasing). Way to misread completely and disregard the rest of my post, next time try not to derail the discussion.
I really respect HTOMario, he's very skilled and one of the smartest players around, and in no way would I discredit his accomplishments (as you can tell by actually reading my post), but I highly doubt that he somehow he "broke" the matchup, as can be evidenced in proplay where mech or ravens don't even exist. Might as well remove Ravens, BCs and Thors from the game, that will have literally zero impact in any tournament game outside of TvT.
In beta of HOTS I had 90%+ winrate in TvP in masters by going full-skyterran(banshee/raven/viking) with mass hellbat/hellion support(before transf servos existed and blueflame wasn't required). Does that mean we should nerf banshees because they are OP in TvP? I mean, maybe the metagame will eventually shift into that, it's just that those silly koreans don't know any better and keep trying to use marines and medivacs when in fact they should be going FE into 3starports....right???
I actually stopped using that style even though I had insane winrate with it because the few players who would stop panicking or playing on autopilot (like not scouting and going colossi against banshees then calling me a faggot and leaving when I show up with a bunch of banshees to snipe their third and tech) and actually THINK during a match would COMPLETELY DESTROY ME like I didn't even had a slight fighting chance....it felt bad so I stopped and went back to my barely 50% winrate "regular mech".
The same thing with applies to Ravens and TVZ mech.
i'm in favor of these types of nerfs, but besides the roach speed one, i'm not sure if they will make that big of a difference, i damage increase on tanks might help
I didn't even watch idra vs avilo game lol I am just pointing out that mech can be super cost efficient unlike what you said.
this is interesting, first you stated you are masters and put out your opinion. then you call off HTOmario, a GM in Korea because you think he isn't really in master? I don't know what to think man. Should league count anymore? So because he didn't get 91% win rate in TvZ, makes his pure meching in GM invalid?
WHAT? Where did I say he isn't in masters? I'm saying that his account at the start was being leveled with a brand new MMR and because of that he wasn't getting matched against equally skilled people at first and because of that he had an insane winrate on KR server (which is already decreasing). Way to misread completely and disregard the rest of my post.
I really respect HTOMario, he's very skilled and one of the smartest players around, but I highly doubt that he somehow he "broke" the matchup, as can be evidenced in proplay (where mech or ravens don't even exist).
HTOMario was leveling an account from 0 on KR server, and was playing against a lot of nubs. He was advertising like "87% w/l" on his stream, and when I went to watch it he was still getting matched against diamonds on some games
way to dismiss my point as well. Just because he faced diamond doesn't mean he didn't make mech all the way up to where his rank is now, even if the win rate is boosted. you stated as your opinion as a master terran, I put up a GM Korea Terran as a respond and then you said his mmr win rate boosted etc as if he didn't get to Korea GM with mech as if his opinion doesn't matter while yours is.
Ok, to clear this up then, I don't think his OPINION on Raven-mech or whatever being OP matters because all EVIDENCE states otherwise and that makes his opinion not qualified, like I've been trying to explain on my long posts all along, regardless of mine or anyone's league/rank/race/winrate or whatever.
On October 11 2013 01:11 ETisME wrote: ^ lol I watched a close to 2 hours game where Destiny was containing a terran on 3 bases basically turtling with ravens, hellbats, thors and turrets he tried ultra mass baneling drops, mass infested terran, all while with swarmhost at the back (viper couldn't even get close to do anything) and muta switch etc. destiny still almost lost that game because that composition is insanely cost efficient. in fact, HTO Mario claimed he has a 91% win rate on korean GM with tvz raven mech http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10195019422?page=2
So he "almost" lost...that says nothing....Also you realize that the composition HAS to be really cost efficient because properly supported SHs won't LET TERRAN MECH DO ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN TURTLING, mech is already in it's current state, the only hope is playing against Zergs that think it's enough to just make 20 SHs and rally them into the Terran's fortified chokepoint, and then QQ when they get rolled over.
And I watched the Idra vs Avilo game in real time, and TBH Idra was playing like he didn't have a clue on how to fight against mech. He kept trying to fight it head on...with BROODLORD/corruptor against mass Raven/Viking...rofl
Maybe you, oh the great maestro of zerg, know the answer on how to fight turtling mech, assuming that terran actually turtles well.
I don't play Zerg, but if you wanna go down that road...it doesn't take a genius zerg player to realize that mass corruptor/broodlord isn't going to fare well against 3-3 mass raven/viking. Not to mention avilo has a lot of experience and incredible macro in late game engagements, unlike SHs/BLs, Raven based compositions require a lot of micro and smart positioning instead of just a-moving and rallying free units, and whereas most people don't play 30+ minute games, experienced mech players have a lot of practice in late game engagements and get naturally better at it than other people.
A lot of people cry and shout that mech is the strongest strategy in TvT, and how bio won't be viable if the patch goes through etc etc. As a meching player myself, when I play pure bio in TvT against mech I actually find it much easier to win than when I'm meching against bio (which is my expertise), because I understand well how to exploit and can instantly recognize any weakness that shows up in any mech player.
If I started playing Zerg now, with the current experience I have, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be troublesome to beat mech. My TvZ games on the ladder are VERY one sided, both wins and losses, it's just that fewer players understand how to play against mech, some people think they are entitled to a win just because they have good mechanics and creep spread (spoiled zergs from imba WOL days maybe?), and keep charging head on into a huge tank like.
I literally get people raging at me, saying they should have won because they "macro well and have 2x my apm"...tough shit, gotta use your brain a little bit to beat mech instead of just playing autopilot builds/styles with300apm and good macro, , mech is true S in this RTS game.
I do not care about mech tbh, and i can agree with you that making brood lords against ravens and vikings is a terrible decision. I am just asking for an answer for a simple question: beating turtling mech.
On October 11 2013 01:57 Grumbels wrote: I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map.
I think not, and you don't need that many Ravens, like 30 or so is enough, and the rest Vikings. However I completely fail to see the relevance of this in relation to the thread or the current discussion...or anything else really.
On October 11 2013 01:57 Grumbels wrote: I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map.
Let me think. It depends how far in the corner. In theory with perfectly executed chain yanks you can pull out vikings one by one into mass spores and queens. But that is trading 1 viking for 1 viper (at best for zerg). But yeah, more likely draw.
On October 11 2013 01:58 lolfail9001 wrote: I do not care about mech tbh, and i can agree with you that making brood lords against ravens and vikings is a terrible decision. I am just asking for an answer for a simple question: beating turtling mech.
Simple question, not so simple answer as that requires that the matchup is played in an entire different way, down to how/when/where you expand, how/when you engage in different maps, what unit compositions you're going to use (as unlike with 4M, you can FORCE certain units out of Terran mech, which makes IMHO for way more interesting games than MMMM parade), what weaknesses you're going to look for and how you're going to exploit them (and how to prepare before hand to properly exploit them)..etc etc.
So I'm sorry, I can't give you a 1 line answer, the game is more complex than that, however if you want, you can drop me a pm and we can talk about this.
On October 11 2013 01:57 Grumbels wrote: I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map.
I have a question: How the F*ck do you get into that scenario?
Split map on akilon?
Oh yeah, the classic Rush to 30Ravens/Vikings into mass CC to the corner of the map into DRAW strategy, very good to use on the ladder against unsuspecting zergs!!! Some say it will be the big thing in next GSL.
On October 11 2013 01:57 Grumbels wrote: I have a question: can you actually break the following composition as a zerg?
50 vikings, 50 ravens, 10+ floating buildings, all in a corner of the map.
I have a question: How the F*ck do you get into that scenario?
Split map on akilon?
I just don't see how you would ever have to float your buildings into a corner when you have 50 ravens and 50 vikings.
Let it go man...just let it go, pretend this was never asked and move on, if you keep arguing they'll get into your head and next thing you know you'll have gone insane.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
No one can show you a replay or a VOD of this because it doesn't exist and will never exist.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
I heard avilo plays this regularly. But dunno, cause do not care.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
My thing is, if it worked at the highest level, we'd see it at the highest level.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
My thing is, if it worked at the highest level, we'd see it at the highest level.
Why they should pretend the ultra-macro-agressive style ?
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
My thing is, if it worked at the highest level, we'd see it at the highest level.
Bio mine out shines mech in every map and all stages until late late game. This is why mech isn't used, that's not to say mech is not viable at top level. Honestly why would any terran go for mech when bio mine is more consistent in performance?
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
No one can show you a replay or a VOD of this because it doesn't exist and will never exist.
You seem like a guy that has some knowladge and isn't completely off, but this is really not true. This style exists. And it is basically autowin vs standard ladder Zerg players that pump out 20 SH + mass spine/spore/queen/etc as soon as they realize they are facing mech.. They take whole map then, bank 10k/10k and then they lose..
The way it is beaten is actually the good old "not let him get there".. You can't let him get to 4 or 5 bases, otherwise properly played turtlig mech with PF/walls, Sensor Towers, 3/3 Tank/Thor/Raven/Viking with farmin CC is even worse then Broodlord/Corruptor for Zerg to beat..
I would still have preferred to see more prorated Widow Mine damage than a smaller radius.
There's only single target damage and one splash radius. I'd rather they keep the full size explosion, but make it so the outer perimeters cannot even kill a baneling.
At least this way, you still feel like you are chipping away at zerg units instead of outright not even abusing them. Mutas can shake off the 10 damage like nothing, but at least Zergling and Banelings will still feel a little more wrath from mines. Most importantly, though, the big instant death of bling blobs is still halted.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
My thing is, if it worked at the highest level, we'd see it at the highest level.
Bio mine out shines mech in every map and all stages until late late game. This is why mech isn't used, that's not to say mech is not viable at top level. Honestly why would any terran go for mech when bio mine is more consistent in performance?
Yet, terrans going bio-mine is still around 50/50 in high level TvZ. If this style was so unbeatable, how could it be less consistent than bio mine in performance?
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
My thing is, if it worked at the highest level, we'd see it at the highest level.
Bio mine out shines mech in every map and all stages until late late game. This is why mech isn't used, that's not to say mech is not viable at top level. Honestly why would any terran go for mech when bio mine is more consistent in performance?
Yet, terrans going bio-mine is still around 50/50 in high level TvZ. If this style was so unbeatable, how could it be less consistent than bio mine in performance?
Because mech is worse at all maps and almost every stage of the game until late late game? I will ignore map influence. Just look at the stages of the game. If the mech player has a higher chance to lose every stage except late late game, is that not less consistent, even if end game is 100% win?
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
My thing is, if it worked at the highest level, we'd see it at the highest level.
Bio mine out shines mech in every map and all stages until late late game. This is why mech isn't used, that's not to say mech is not viable at top level. Honestly why would any terran go for mech when bio mine is more consistent in performance?
Yet, terrans going bio-mine is still around 50/50 in high level TvZ. If this style was so unbeatable, how could it be less consistent than bio mine in performance?
The thing is, bio/mine is so good and the fact bio is standard in pretty much all three matchups still due to how versatile it is, nobody at the pro level is ever going to bother with mech. I've never understood how or why the hell they made Bio more cost efficient than mech. It's never made sense to me and it annoyed me to the point I just quit the game x_x
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers.
But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway.
I always played mech tvz and that was one of my better match ups. (I was in masters as Terran in NA.) The only times I would lose, as a general matter, were when my opponent went roach-hydra. If you get four or five thors out the mutas have no hope of doing anything. If they committed to mutalisks I would supplement with vikings, which when paired with thors actually help quite a bit and were obviously helpful for the eventual broodlord transition. If you're pushing with a maxed/near maxed 2-2 mech army around 15-16 minutes (which is how I played mech) there is no way zerg could afford a massive tech switch into ultras.
There are a lot of reasons you might be struggling against muta but I would be surprised if many other mech players, masters level or greater, share your concern. From the very few pro games I've seen of mech tvz I don't recall mutas seeming like they're a big issue (in contrast to vipers for example).
On October 07 2013 02:43 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've played a fair number of games on the test map now, trying to see if the 10% attack rate increase for tanks made a difference, but... it really doesn't.
That's not exactly true as tank performance against swarmhosts is a little better now. Of course mech is now so much weaker against mutas that it hardly matters but still.
Havent seen anybody go mass widow mine as answer to mutalisks with Mech yet, so I dont see why Mech would be much worse vs mutas.
Coming from someone who meched every single game (since the start of WoL(although I've become quite bored of it of late), I would hardly say mutas are an issue as mech what so ever. You have so many excess minerals due to your gas dependancy that you can litter your bases with turrets and thors do perfectly fine with turret support vs mutas. Mutas are really not an issue vs mech, the issue is mainly the ease of tech switching between both hive techs after going for swarm hosts. They get a huge bank and it's really hard to deal with that sort of tech switching. Ravens really do help against Blord/Corrupter instead of pure vikings, but then you get overrun on the ground by ultras.
Coming from someone who meched every single game etc etc, mutas are one of the main problems for mech in HotS. Sure tech switching is a pita. Just like swarmhosts and vipers.
But Thors are much worse than in WoL (In WoL getting two thor shots of at clumped mutas was considered a huge win, in HotS fairly irrelevant). And turrets become fairly bad against large numbers of mutas. Sure if you really want you can make enough turrets and leave behind enough thors to stop mutas. However at that point zerg dominates the entire map risk free. And that allows them to do those tech switches and to just keep suiciding ultras into your army. He doesn't care if all his ultras die for only 50% of your army dead, he just remaxes if he got complete map control anyway.
I always played mech tvz and that was one of my better match ups. (I was in masters as Terran in NA.) The only times I would lose, as a general matter, were when my opponent went roach-hydra. If you get four or five thors out the mutas have no hope of doing anything. If they committed to mutalisks I would supplement with vikings, which when paired with thors actually help quite a bit and were obviously helpful for the eventual broodlord transition. If you're pushing with a maxed/near maxed 2-2 mech army around 15-16 minutes (which is how I played mech) there is no way zerg could afford a massive tech switch into ultras.
There are a lot of reasons you might be struggling against muta but I would be surprised if many other mech players, masters level or greater, share your concern. From the very few pro games I've seen of mech tvz I don't recall mutas seeming like they're a big issue (in contrast to vipers for example).
Actually i remember seeing Strelok vs Scarlett game on Akilon where Scarlett did the infamous: mutas into more mutas transition. Strelok for a reasons of it being well hidden and being pinned never scouted this transition and moved out with 2 thors against 30 mutas. That was sad. Muta transition is slow, but if goes unscouted and you undermake thors is extremely strong.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
My thing is, if it worked at the highest level, we'd see it at the highest level.
Bio mine out shines mech in every map and all stages until late late game. This is why mech isn't used, that's not to say mech is not viable at top level. Honestly why would any terran go for mech when bio mine is more consistent in performance?
The real issue regarding mech is rebuilding. Every other composition can rebuild quicker than mech. Terran production is expensive. Combine that with the ability
If blizzard really wanted to make mech viable they should combine ground upgrades at the eng. bay (no other race has to pay gas to get the structure for ground upgrades - protoss not even for air). Armory needed for +2 and air upgrades. We might not ever see pure mech in sc2 but at least in this scenario we might see bio mech armies of various types in each match.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
I'm just going to leave this here. Game played on 8 Oct 2013.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
I heard avilo plays this regularly. But dunno, cause do not care.
If 'Unbeatable' were a physical thing, avilo would be located in the corner of the universe furthest from it.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
I'm just going to leave this here. Game played on 8 Oct 2013.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
My thing is, if it worked at the highest level, we'd see it at the highest level.
Bio mine out shines mech in every map and all stages until late late game. This is why mech isn't used, that's not to say mech is not viable at top level. Honestly why would any terran go for mech when bio mine is more consistent in performance?
The real issue regarding mech is rebuilding. Every other composition can rebuild quicker than mech. Terran production is expensive. Combine that with the ability
If blizzard really wanted to make mech viable they should combine ground upgrades at the eng. bay (no other race has to pay gas to get the structure for ground upgrades - protoss not even for air). Armory needed for +2 and air upgrades. We might not ever see pure mech in sc2 but at least in this scenario we might see bio mech armies of various types in each match.
I really don't understand this mech upgrade obsession. Mech doesn't work at pro level because of specific timings that come before upgrades take effect or critical mass of tanks gets build. One less upgrade to research certainly cannot hurt but until those few weaknesses get resolved it will remain as a 'surprise strategy' at best.
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
I heard avilo plays this regularly. But dunno, cause do not care.
If 'Unbeatable' were a physical thing, avilo would be located in the corner of the universe furthest from it.
I am not telling about it being unbeatable or something. I am just talking about this stephano-SHs-boringness-level-strategy
On October 11 2013 02:11 TeeTS wrote: Show me replays or VODs of this unbeatable mech TvZ style. Before I get to watch these, I wouldn´t believe anything about it.
You can watch Thorzain tvz in hots beta. He went a more heavy skyterran though and that was with ground sky upgrade combined. Avilo does it by playing just super greedy build as well. But it gets to show just how good it can trade with anything when he gets that unit count high
My thing is, if it worked at the highest level, we'd see it at the highest level.
Bio mine out shines mech in every map and all stages until late late game. This is why mech isn't used, that's not to say mech is not viable at top level. Honestly why would any terran go for mech when bio mine is more consistent in performance?
Yet, terrans going bio-mine is still around 50/50 in high level TvZ. If this style was so unbeatable, how could it be less consistent than bio mine in performance?
The thing is, bio/mine is so good and the fact bio is standard in pretty much all three matchups still due to how versatile it is, nobody at the pro level is ever going to bother with mech. I've never understood how or why the hell they made Bio more cost efficient than mech. It's never made sense to me and it annoyed me to the point I just quit the game x_x
Bio is not more cost effective in TvT... The reason mech sucks in vZ and vP is because tanks get hard countered but units like the immortal, vipers.
You can't talk about balance at top Korean level and still use thorzain and avilo as examples of "unbeatable" Terran mech comps. Sorry but a korean-level Zerg or Protoss will have taken over the entire map and/or pulled apart such slow army.
On October 11 2013 04:31 fried_rice wrote: So you post a video of Terran losing with the "unbeatable" TvZ mech? Are you completely dense?
The point is a Zerg with 10,000 minerals & gas can't do anything to to kill the Terran. Eventually the Zerg wins because the Terran gave up.
lol i checked out the game and couldn't find the major engagement that terran lost... so i went to halfway thru the vid and destiny has the whole map and terran is turtling...
to me he's already lost so there's not much to discuss... also destiny probably didn't know how to finish sooner
On October 11 2013 04:31 fried_rice wrote: So you post a video of Terran losing with the "unbeatable" TvZ mech? Are you completely dense?
The point is a Zerg with 10,000 minerals & gas can't do anything to to kill the Terran. Eventually the Zerg wins because the Terran gave up.
lol i checked out the game and couldn't find the major engagement that terran lost... so i went to halfway thru the vid and destiny has the whole map and terran is turtling...
to me he's already lost so there's not much to discuss... also destiny probably didn't know how to finish sooner
Yet it took 2 hours to break him. And believe it or not, there is no other way to finish it sooner without actually ending up without money against deathball.
On October 11 2013 07:39 plogamer wrote: You can't talk about balance at top Korean level and still use thorzain and avilo as examples of "unbeatable" Terran mech comps. Sorry but a korean-level Zerg or Protoss will have taken over the entire map and/or pulled apart such slow army.
The only thing that is balancing this is the difficulty of getting the deathball out. But the point remains: Should there exist a deathball that is so cost efficient? Aka should there really be a kill him before he gets the deathball or you lose no matter what? A deathball that isn't quite beatable?
This is of cause a theoretical question only. But I have no doubt we will see some of these raven mech builds if mech is more viable, this is why I wrote a blog on this issue during the beta
On October 11 2013 07:39 plogamer wrote: You can't talk about balance at top Korean level and still use thorzain and avilo as examples of "unbeatable" Terran mech comps. Sorry but a korean-level Zerg or Protoss will have taken over the entire map and/or pulled apart such slow army.
The only thing that is balancing this is the difficulty of getting the deathball out. But the point remains: Should there exist a deathball that is so cost efficient? Aka should there really be a kill him before he gets the deathball or you lose no matter what? A deathball that isn't quite beatable?
This is of cause a theoretical question only. But I have no doubt we will see some of these raven mech builds if mech is more viable, this is why I wrote a blog on this issue during the beta
A) Yes, as it adds variety to the game B) No, but the deathball be more cost efficient than what you have. You should have to use multiple armies or the absoloute perfect engagement to take it out.
The issue I have is that Bio is more cost efficient due to it's speed/mobility and just general repopulating than mech is when mech should be, cost for cost and power for power more effective at fighting ground armies. It just isn't.
On October 11 2013 04:31 fried_rice wrote: So you post a video of Terran losing with the "unbeatable" TvZ mech? Are you completely dense?
The point is a Zerg with 10,000 minerals & gas can't do anything to to kill the Terran. Eventually the Zerg wins because the Terran gave up.
lol i checked out the game and couldn't find the major engagement that terran lost... so i went to halfway thru the vid and destiny has the whole map and terran is turtling...
to me he's already lost so there's not much to discuss... also destiny probably didn't know how to finish sooner
Yet it took 2 hours to break him. And believe it or not, there is no other way to finish it sooner without actually ending up without money against deathball.
You do realize that was one of the first few games Destiny was playing, and maybe the first game Destiny played against a Mech Terran since HoTS came out and he was asking the chat for advice on what to do because he had no idea right? To let it get to that point means Destiny didn't hit the timings he was supposed to, to stop mech from getting to that stage and it takes a stupid amount of time to get to that stage.
On October 11 2013 04:31 fried_rice wrote: So you post a video of Terran losing with the "unbeatable" TvZ mech? Are you completely dense?
The point is a Zerg with 10,000 minerals & gas can't do anything to to kill the Terran. Eventually the Zerg wins because the Terran gave up.
lol i checked out the game and couldn't find the major engagement that terran lost... so i went to halfway thru the vid and destiny has the whole map and terran is turtling...
to me he's already lost so there's not much to discuss... also destiny probably didn't know how to finish sooner
Yet it took 2 hours to break him. And believe it or not, there is no other way to finish it sooner without actually ending up without money against deathball.
You do realize that was one of the first few games Destiny was playing, and maybe the first game Destiny played against a Mech Terran since HoTS came out and he was asking the chat for advice on what to do because he had no idea right? To let it get to that point means Destiny didn't hit the timings he was supposed to, to stop mech from getting to that stage and it takes a stupid amount of time to get to that stage.
He was asking in chat because he has all the economy in the world and still can't crack the turtling. No one has any idea how to break that defense. In my opinion, zerg just lacks a tool which makes it an awkward position where crazy economy and remax ability still can't do much. It takes a ridiculously large amount of time to have all these economy and tech for Zerg too, lol