On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Yeah no one makes them because they are so awesome vs mutas. Hint: They aren't. In WoL they were acceptable as counter to mutas. This largely depended on them doing some damage everytime mutas came in. In HotS this is largely ineffective since they regen anyway.
And don't try to make severely nerfing widow mine somehow into a terran boost.
On October 05 2013 00:34 FeyFey wrote:
On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds.
I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
Which makes those medivacs useless outside their thor drop role, they aren't doing any healing while you are using them to kite. And really? It is fairly easy to hit and run 4 speed mutas with dropping thors from medivacs? That seems to me like a shitload of micro required to 'counter' mutas. In case you go pure mech there is also nothing stopping mutas from going directly over your army when you are putting thors in medivacs. And a little error and your medivac dies with thor in it.
First, i did not say they are awesome against mutas. I said they are awesome against stacked mutas. How to make mutas stack? build widow mines. Yes, suddenly it seems clear to me, that Blizzard's intent is a bio-mech with heavier emphasis on mech units, than usual marine-tank. Also, do not try to make it seem like you can regen result of 2 thor volleys in a second. Hint: 2 thor volleys most likely do at least 96 damage to mutas. Next, to kite 4 speed mutas with speed-boosted medivacs you need MUCH less micro than you think.
Euhm yeah, to kite them with medivacs you dont need much micro. To kite them with medivacs which drop and pick up thors while you don't like your entire army dying at the same time takes a shitton of micro.
And really, you think zergs are going to stack all their mutas to let them all die to thors to save a few from WMs? If that is such an awesome tactic, why doesn't anyone use it now? Idea: Because it is simply way worse than what we current have. And 2 thors doing 96 damage to mutas? Yeah to one muta they are targeting. But not to his friends. Hoping they all clump up so thors kill the whole bunch of them is unrealistic.
Even if it would be true what you say, that blizzards intent is bio-mech with more mech units, which apparantly you just thought of without any proof to back it up, then that scares me alot. Simply because everytime blizzard intents to do something they do exactly the opposite. They wanted to boost mech in HotS, see what the result was: A bit more used in TvT, still not used in TvP, killed in TvZ.
So i suppose you have never seen widow mine and medivac sniping with medivacs, yea right, that ridiculous stack of mutas, that killls mines before they go off. Also, i have seen thor added in 4M TvZ at least 3 times. Also, i just judge from direction those changes seem to be going.
Sniping widow mines with medivacs? I assume you mean mutas. I have seen that obviouly. I just don't believe any zerg is stupid enough to stack all his mutas to snipe a WM when in range of thors. If they got enough they accept the WM loss and magic box the thors. If they don't they use their nice 4 speed to attack somewhere else.
Also if you want a nice counter for those mutas to use: Send in few overseers first. If thors fire on them their shots are wasted. WM shots on them are wasted. That way they dont have to stack their mutas vs WMs.
On October 05 2013 06:08 Sissors wrote: Sniping widow mines with medivacs? I assume you mean mutas. I have seen that obviouly. I just don't believe any zerg is stupid enough to stack all his mutas to snipe a WM when in range of thors. If they got enough they accept the WM loss and magic box the thors. If they don't they use their nice 4 speed to attack somewhere else.
Also if you want a nice counter for those mutas: Send in few overseers first. If thors fire on them their shots are wasted. WM shots on them are wasted.
And really you make alot of assumptions from some blizzard changes.
Yeah, mutas, my mind is kinda tired at the moment. WM loss however has one 'small' problem. It reduces muta count against marines. Few overseers? What overseers? Those, that get obliterated in seconds by marines? Well, it's not like their changes are that complicated to understand.
This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
On October 05 2013 06:53 archwaykitten wrote: This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
So I played a zvp against a masters Protoss and I have to say the oracle is fine. If you scout the stargate nothing changes and a queen + spore in position will be enough to defend. The oracles will live longer and get away from hydras etc. more often but that's what was supposed to happen and you can counter revelation with burrow so it's not imba in the mid game. I think we will see them more often in the lategame with tempests now and that's cool.
Also played some zvz and roach vs roach is crazy now. You need detection against burrow runbys everywhere and it's really annoying to deal with roaches in you mineral lines, but well, I think you can get used to it and more action is good I guess.
Didn't get to play Terran yet and didn't try a mass burrow roach allin in zvp yet, since stargate openings with oracle into voids kinda prevents it.
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote: I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Yeah, because the 150/100 armory + upgrade costs is "free". I wonder what you could call the 150minerals, low tech forge that upgrades all your ground units (which are the only ones you use in PvT anyway)...
but oh, that's right, more dumb and costly upgrades for Terran means more "decision making and depth" in the game YAY!
I like all the changes, I wish for a bigger Tank buff and improved Thor as well because right now I think Terran will struggle in TvZ vs Mutas, but I guess we'll see.
You are allowed to call everything free in this game since HotS. Examples: Everything that only costs energy or time. Spore crawlers. Low Tier units in the lategame. Siege Mode. etc. So yeah, the viking gets free upgrades now. (and probably has ever done so!)
I don't even understand how it's possible for you to argue against this? if you're upgrading vehicle weapons or plating anyway, Viking does get free upgrades. This is not even debatable. If Zerg got a free carapace upgrade every time they researched melee attack, would you bring up the cost of building an Evolution Chamber? How does that even make any sense in the slightest? They haven't been getting them for ever, in fact it's a new change introduced by this testmap
if marines and marauders had separate upgrades and then they were combined it wouldn't be "free upgrades," it would just be a change to the game mechanics, which is exactly what this is
there's no point in using the language "free" unless you want to connote that it's somehow unfair. any buff is "free" because blizzard is changing the game to make something more powerful/convenient/otherwise beneficial to the player. saying it's "free" adds nothing to the discussion. if you buff a unit's hp that's "free hp." so what? that's the point of buffs
On October 05 2013 08:23 Musicus wrote: Didn't get to play Terran yet and didn't try a mass burrow roach allin in zvp yet, since stargate openings with oracle into voids kinda prevents it.
i'm hoping the burrow upgrade will facilitate retreat micro more than all in styles tbh. a viable zerg 2 base all in would be nice (would be sort of like blink all-in, maybe?), but i'm more interested in things like roach runbys to unwalled protoss third bases, burrowing back in zvz roach wars, etc
On October 05 2013 08:23 Musicus wrote: Didn't get to play Terran yet and didn't try a mass burrow roach allin in zvp yet, since stargate openings with oracle into voids kinda prevents it.
i'm hoping the burrow upgrade will facilitate retreat micro more than all in styles tbh. a viable zerg 2 base all in would be nice (would be sort of like blink all-in, maybe?), but i'm more interested in things like roach runbys to unwalled protoss third bases, burrowing back in zvz roach wars, etc
Yeah would be nice to see that, but at least I couldn't pull it off and it doesn't work like blink imo since there is always detection in roach vs roach now. It felt like the roaches still got picked off most of the time after borrowing them and you lost too much dps if they survived and unborrowed later. It's also way more actions then blinking, but maybe high level players can still pull it off.
In zvp the cannons stopped most of my burrow runbys, you first have to pick of the cannon and then the army will be there. Next time there will be 4 cannons. But I think it will have a big impact on roaches vs forcefields, whether offensive or defensive, but I only played against air heavy compositions with very few sentries.
I know that fun has no place in a TL balance testing thread, but it was a lot of fun using the roaches new speed while burrowed buff! I hope that stays in, you can YOLO packs of roaches into armies who know you're coming and unborrow so you get the most dps possible, it's tight.
On October 05 2013 06:53 archwaykitten wrote: This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
the widow mine nerf and burrow move speed is make the game heavily imbalanced in favor of zerg. this is as bad as the infestor buff in wol, if not worse. the widow mine needs more range and roaches need to be slower underground.
On October 05 2013 06:53 archwaykitten wrote: This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
The mutas can just snipe the medivac then.
Unless the thor is heavily upgraded or mutas are clumped, very few number of mutas are actually required to kill a thor with minimal losses. The danger in thors come from engagements and from harass where clumping is more likely.
On October 05 2013 06:53 archwaykitten wrote: This got me thinking.. Can a couple Thors in boosted medivacs be used to actually hunt down injured mutalisks? Like, when the mutalisks try to retreat from a battle to heal up after being hit by a couple mine blasts or Thor volleys, can you load up and chase them down with the Thors? Medivacs are faster than mutalisks when boosted, they don't have to get too close to the mutalisks due to the Thor's long range, and Thors can be unloaded instantly as soon as they get in range since they're just one big unit...
The mutas can just snipe the medivac then.
Unless the thor is heavily upgraded or mutas are clumped, very few number of mutas are actually required to kill a thor with minimal losses. The danger in thors come from engagements and from harass where clumping is more likely.
Mutas on move auto split. Thanks to AI.
Also All changes with +60% con and 30% pro are voted by race-played :D
On October 04 2013 22:01 The_best32 wrote: i really don't understand why blizzard don't like bio/mine play. there is so much action all over the place and so much micro potential on both sides. just look at drg vs innovation or at soulkey vs innovation from wcs kr ro8 in S2. in the thread with the best games in hots are 30 from 62 games tvz's, so it's definitly the best matchup to watch and with the overseer buff it seems to be very balanced, so i just don't understand why blizzard wants to change the matchup.
with marine/tank everything comes down to one timing push by the terran. if it fails the zerg wins and if it is succesful the terran wins, it's just so boring. why the hell blizz wants to see that??? instead of destroying the most entertaining and most balanced matchup, blizz should concentrate on fixing tvp where scv pull is the only chance to win for terran.
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
4M micro vs biomech deathball stuff, deathball stuff is far more boring.
Biomech isn't deathball, have you never watched TvT?
TLDR type post. all i say imho: now in TvZ, Terran is favored but this is ok, after this patch Zerg will be favored and even more if changes stays the same because dealing with Tanks is easy task for HotS Zerg overall. TvZ according to September is ok or a bit Z favored. Patch will WORSE current game state. i would implement 1)Vehicle 2)Roaches 3)Oracle only
EPT
