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On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Yeah, because the 150/100 armory + upgrade costs is "free". I wonder what you could call the 150minerals, low tech forge that upgrades all your ground units (which are the only ones you use in PvT anyway)...
but oh, that's right, more dumb and costly upgrades for Terran means more "decision making and depth" in the game YAY!
I like all the changes, I wish for a bigger Tank buff and improved Thor as well because right now I think Terran will struggle in TvZ vs Mutas, but I guess we'll see.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
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On October 04 2013 22:38 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction' Yeah, because the 150/100 armory + upgrade costs is "free". I wonder what you could call the 150minerals, low tech forge that upgrades all your ground units (which are the only ones you use in PvT anyway)... but oh, that's right, more dumb and costly upgrades for Terran means more "decision making and depth" in the game YAY! I like all the changes, I wish for a bigger Tank buff and improved Thor as well because right now I think Terran will struggle in TvZ vs Mutas, but I guess we'll see.
You are allowed to call everything free in this game since HotS.
Examples: Everything that only costs energy or time. Spore crawlers. Low Tier units in the lategame. Siege Mode. etc.
So yeah, the viking gets free upgrades now. (and probably has ever done so!) 
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Oracle buff is fine but this is not the most interesting way to do so.
Speed buff will be pretty big, for example it can safely run away from mutalisks now which has a good chance of letting the oracle replace the phoenix as de facto harass option in PvZ. 1 oracle can go for queens right away and arrives much faster than 4 phoenix do and at a much lower cost. For hunting overlords you simply get a voidray or two then. Phoenixes are much better at stopping/preventing the mutalisk switch and they harassed better but with oracle buff the mutalisk change is less scary (easier to scout it out and you don't lose your oracle). In return oracle + voids is much better for taking a fast third as they are actually useful against lings/roaches while phoenix opener into third is quite tough usually forcing P to wait till robo tech first and consequently having a lot of trouble with 200/200 roach/hydra pushes with viper or corruptor backup.
All in all a very cool change but I still rather see revelation dropped and have an actually cool and useful spell on the oracle, perhaps one requiring an upgrade. The spell is sort of "i can't harass anymore so might as well do something" but still just really boring and bland. Envision is kind of needed to give the stargate tech tree some detection but the oracle needs more use than just a worker harasser really. Envision and revelation should have been 1 vision/detection spell (for example let envision give vision of the area for 30 seconds even after the oracle has gone so you can fly over and scout a base for a longer time. The third ability could have been something cool then, like a disable static defense ability or a building attack or whatever. As it stands oracle will still be a gimmicky harass unit that works nicely for some openings and get's shut down pretty hard by static defense afterwards while functioning as a glorified observer later.
Tank and widow mine change look pretty fine. Can't judge the numbers but if it works to create a mix of mines and tanks it's pretty cool. Widow mine nerf seems too big though, they are overpowered slightly at the moment but only in TvZ and too useless everywhere else. I think it would be fair to buff their aoe damage in return for this lower area, a damage buff doesn't affect their use against lings/banes at all because they get overkilled but keeps their power against muta's and potentially makes them better against protoss and terran. For example they'd be fun worker harassers in TvT but still balanced as their aoe is smaller. Alternatively I like to see them being a bit easier to micro, for example just allowing stop micro. The annoyance with them now is that even amongst pro's the hits are really random and determine outcomes of battles hugely.
The mech/air combination is still awful. Sure mech may become good because of it but it's a boring mech where the counter to air is vikings... Vikings and most other anti-air air units are incredibly boring because there is no cool positioning going on. The thor anti-air needs buffing, that way you can actually see cool positioning stuff of tempest/carrier vs mech ground etc but now mech just makes vikings instead.. Even worse about it is that mech will just dominate TvT now, the subtle balance between bio and mech is cool and all mech wars is truly boring. Bio before has the mobility advantage and could always go to an air switch if mech truly turtled too much but if mech has an 3-3 air advantage vs 0-0 bio's air that is just impossible. Thor air buff would be much more interesting as mech would have the AA it needs for TvZ/TvP but would still have trouble with BC's in TvT because yamato could counter thors.. The combination of the upgrades doesn't even help mech enough in TvZ and TvP probably, surprise muta's would still be super hard to stop for example and roaches get a good buff with the tunneling claws.
Roach change is awesome though, probably won't do all that much but making the roach more interesting is always a good thing. Hopefully this puts the nail in the coffin to those rediculous mass sentry all-ins you still see in PvZ from time to time while the oracle buff hopefully let's P play a little better and more diverse in macro games.
All in all not too bad but could be better,
ZvZ hopefully a bit better with more roach micro but still too much roach wars i'm afraid
ZvT looks like an awesome improvement with tanks replacing or sharing the role with widow mines, perhaps even full on mech.
ZvP looks like a good improvement with roach shenanigans and more oracle play (which is slightly more exciting than phoenix i guess).
PvT probably doesn't change much but slightly more oracle usage and hellbats becoming popular to mix in lategame again. I doubt mech will be strong enough here still but who knows, overall solid improvement.
PvP more stargate which i'm not particularely fond off. Stargate play is cool but stargate vs stargate ends in the dullest phoenix wars which are just boring. Stargate openers kinda prevent colossus play as well making it just more zealot/archon/immortal endgames. I'd say this matchup get's slightly worse.
TvT looks to lose the most here. Can't imagine anything else than full on mech wars now with sieged positions being even harder to break. Widow mines become even more useless here and air dominance become a bigger thing since sieged up positions are easier to hold, medivacs die even faster to vikings and BC's/banshee's kill much faster against ground now. I'm afraid this turns into early WoL like matches with tanks holding the grounds and both sides building up viking/bc/raven armies, bumrushing the ground seems impossible if presieged tanks get even a bigger advantage and winning the air fight becomes even more crucial. This matchup probably becomes massively worse and much much longer on average.
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Uh, to all the people saying mech will dominate TvT because of this...no, just no.
Here's how it goes:
-The bio player will be getting +vehicle weapons REGARDLESS because they'll Tanks in their army anyway, so their air switch will actually be STRONGER because of this. In response to that, the mech player will have upgrades Vikings to compensate, no changes here.
-The bio player will always bank a lot of gas and be able to do an air switch because of that, so now they'll also get free attack upgrades for their bcs/banshees or whatever because they were upgrading their Tanks throughout the game. They'll only lose on the armor upgrades in comparison to the mech player.
-Mech anti-air is horrible besides Vikings, and even though they are getting weapon upgrades now, Mech also needs Widow Mine support to fight skyterran, and since the splash radius is reduced by a lot they are going to be way worse against air units in general and especially BCs.
All in all, I think TvT will remain more or less the same, I actually think Mech will be worse in some situations compared to now, and better in others. And IMHO bio or bio/tank is overall stronger than Mech anyway.
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On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time.
Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds.
I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
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On October 05 2013 00:34 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines. Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds. I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
reminds me of MMA kiting with bio and then thor drop against broodlords which strayed too far (think it was DRG)
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 05 2013 00:34 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines. Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds. I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
I actually meant the following deal:
Look, when you want to snipe mine or tank you want to clump up your mutas, since you must make sure at least 10 shots (on 0 upgrades from either side) will reach mine before it fires off. Now imagine 1 thor shot on clumped up mutas? In fact thor does more splash to stacked mutas, than mines, does not kill any yet. 2 hits and mutas are essentially out of the game for a minute. And then it is ling bane (assuming ling bane muta) against tanky thor, tanks, mines and bio.
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On October 04 2013 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG.
I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 05 2013 03:33 ma5ta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG. I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play?
4M is actually was a 'side-effect' of attempt to make bio-mech work.
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On October 05 2013 03:50 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 03:33 ma5ta wrote:On October 04 2013 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG. I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play? 4M is actually was a 'side-effect' of attempt to make bio-mech work.
Not really.
Widow mine was supposed to be a core terran unit after mech was left for dead.
If anything it was a side effect of trying to sell HotS to terrans.
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lol i can feel the butthurt over those who learned teh 4m well
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widow mine was for 'board control'
i believe it was to help transition to mech
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 05 2013 04:08 mishimaBeef wrote:
widow mine was for 'board control'
i believe it was to help transition to mech
Not really, to help to use mech too IMO.
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On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines.
Yeah no one makes them because they are so awesome vs mutas. Hint: They aren't. In WoL they were acceptable as counter to mutas. This largely depended on them doing some damage everytime mutas came in. In HotS this is largely ineffective since they regen anyway.
And don't try to make severely nerfing widow mine somehow into a terran boost.
On October 05 2013 00:34 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines. Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds. I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo.
Which makes those medivacs useless outside their thor drop role, they aren't doing any healing while you are using them to kite. And really? It is fairly easy to hit and run 4 speed mutas with dropping thors from medivacs? That seems to me like a shitload of micro required to 'counter' mutas. In case you go pure mech there is also nothing stopping mutas from going directly over your army when you are putting thors in medivacs. And a little error and your medivac dies with thor in it.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 05 2013 04:29 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines. Yeah no one makes them because they are so awesome vs mutas. Hint: They aren't. In WoL they were acceptable as counter to mutas. This largely depended on them doing some damage everytime mutas came in. In HotS this is largely ineffective since they regen anyway. And don't try to make severely nerfing widow mine somehow into a terran boost. Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 00:34 FeyFey wrote:On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines. Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds. I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo. Which makes those medivacs useless outside their thor drop role, they aren't doing any healing while you are using them to kite. And really? It is fairly easy to hit and run 4 speed mutas with dropping thors from medivacs? That seems to me like a shitload of micro required to 'counter' mutas. In case you go pure mech there is also nothing stopping mutas from going directly over your army when you are putting thors in medivacs. And a little error and your medivac dies with thor in it.
First, i did not say they are awesome against mutas. I said they are awesome against stacked mutas. How to make mutas stack? build widow mines. Yes, suddenly it seems clear to me, that Blizzard's intent is a bio-mech with heavier emphasis on mech units, than usual marine-tank. Also, do not try to make it seem like you can regen result of 2 thor volleys in a second. Hint: 2 thor volleys most likely do at least 96 damage to mutas.
Next, to kite 4 speed mutas with speed-boosted medivacs you need MUCH less micro than you think.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On October 05 2013 03:33 ma5ta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG. I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play?
The problem is that 4M and Bio is so good that the meta will never change.
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Is there any information/replays/stuff from korean pros about the TvZ matchup? I really want to see if the tank is used (i just cant imagine that).
Edit: Can we just say that all other stuff sans 4M sucks against high mobility zerg stuff?
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On October 05 2013 05:49 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 04:29 Sissors wrote:On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines. Yeah no one makes them because they are so awesome vs mutas. Hint: They aren't. In WoL they were acceptable as counter to mutas. This largely depended on them doing some damage everytime mutas came in. In HotS this is largely ineffective since they regen anyway. And don't try to make severely nerfing widow mine somehow into a terran boost. On October 05 2013 00:34 FeyFey wrote:On October 04 2013 22:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
Also, do not forget, that thors may be slow, but against stacked mutas their shots ARE way more dangerous than mines. Since Thors have priority in targeting air, it is fairly easy to use Thors with Medivacs to kite. So Thors are actually faster then Mutas combined with a medivac atleast for a short amount of time. Since you want to engage an Thor magic boxed it is rather complex to chase them down when they fly around over the Terran army and if you click on the Medivac they will clump more. Not to mention other Thors able to get shots off while the chase is on. So with a Medivac a Thor gets around 2 additional volleys on the Mutas and keeps them busy for roughly 8 seconds. I really like Thors as anti air now because of this combo. Which makes those medivacs useless outside their thor drop role, they aren't doing any healing while you are using them to kite. And really? It is fairly easy to hit and run 4 speed mutas with dropping thors from medivacs? That seems to me like a shitload of micro required to 'counter' mutas. In case you go pure mech there is also nothing stopping mutas from going directly over your army when you are putting thors in medivacs. And a little error and your medivac dies with thor in it. First, i did not say they are awesome against mutas. I said they are awesome against stacked mutas. How to make mutas stack? build widow mines. Yes, suddenly it seems clear to me, that Blizzard's intent is a bio-mech with heavier emphasis on mech units, than usual marine-tank. Also, do not try to make it seem like you can regen result of 2 thor volleys in a second. Hint: 2 thor volleys most likely do at least 96 damage to mutas. Next, to kite 4 speed mutas with speed-boosted medivacs you need MUCH less micro than you think.
Euhm yeah, to kite them with medivacs you dont need much micro. To kite them with medivacs which drop and pick up thors while you don't like your entire army dying at the same time takes a shitton of micro.
And really, you think zergs are going to stack all their mutas to let them all die to thors to save a few from WMs? If that is such an awesome tactic, why doesn't anyone use it now? Idea: Because it is simply way worse than what we current have. And 2 thors doing 96 damage to mutas? Yeah to one muta they are targeting. But not to his friends. Hoping they all clump up so thors kill the whole bunch of them is unrealistic.
Even if it would be true what you say, that blizzards intent is bio-mech with more mech units, which apparantly you just thought of without any proof to back it up, then that scares me alot. Simply because everytime blizzard intents to do something they do exactly the opposite. They wanted to boost mech in HotS, see what the result was: A bit more used in TvT, still not used in TvP, killed in TvZ.
On October 05 2013 05:54 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 03:33 ma5ta wrote:On October 04 2013 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:
Bio-mine actually gets boring. Also, ever thought that Blizzard wants terran to use bio-mech and not 4M? Not to mention, you did not see jjakji vs Leenock game 1 or MMA vs DRG. I don't get why Blizzard should be teaching us how to play the game. Instead of trying to shape the meta, allow the meta to shape the next meta. And then intervene if a change is actually necessary. But, the entire idea that "Oh, we want you to play bio-mech vs Z, not 4M". Why should blizzard tell me how to play? The problem is that 4M and Bio is so good that the meta will never change.
It is so good compared to the alternative. And that is the entire problem in Blizzards thinking. They want to remove 4M as viable option, but they don't come with an alternative. 10% faster cycle time for siege tanks simply doesn't cut it.
And looking at how close the matchup currently is, a large overall nerf is not what is needed.
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On October 04 2013 22:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 22:38 fried_rice wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction' Yeah, because the 150/100 armory + upgrade costs is "free". I wonder what you could call the 150minerals, low tech forge that upgrades all your ground units (which are the only ones you use in PvT anyway)... but oh, that's right, more dumb and costly upgrades for Terran means more "decision making and depth" in the game YAY! I like all the changes, I wish for a bigger Tank buff and improved Thor as well because right now I think Terran will struggle in TvZ vs Mutas, but I guess we'll see. You are allowed to call everything free in this game since HotS. Examples: Everything that only costs energy or time. Spore crawlers. Low Tier units in the lategame. Siege Mode. etc. So yeah, the viking gets free upgrades now. (and probably has ever done so!)
I don't even understand how it's possible for you to argue against this? if you're upgrading vehicle weapons or plating anyway, Viking does get free upgrades. This is not even debatable. If Zerg got a free carapace upgrade every time they researched melee attack, would you bring up the cost of building an Evolution Chamber? How does that even make any sense in the slightest? They haven't been getting them for ever, in fact it's a new change introduced by this testmap
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