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On October 04 2013 02:27 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction' seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots. now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway
This.
It made me very mad since wol that a fucking zealot and a colossus would share the same attack upgrade.
That makes no fucking sense.
At least this terran upgrade fusion is way more credible.
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On October 04 2013 02:25 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 02:21 Shantastic wrote:On October 04 2013 01:39 bo1b wrote:
That is a fucking massive nerf to biomine holy shit.
Seems stupidly out of place when zerg is clearly starting to start winning zvt, if not have an advantage (statistically at least) in korean zvt. It's not about one race or another winning. It's about the unit itself being really stupid. Widow mines are borderline coin-flippy because it's all about exploiting a single micro mistake from Zerg swinging games massively into favors. I'd be all for reducing the cost or cooldown of the Widow Mine and its attack, respectively. Gas units that have huge, powerful, game-winning attacks, with one big disadvantage lend themselves to volatile, annoyingly coin-flippy games. It's not fun to watch a Zerg slowly climb ahead just by playing cost-efficiently against Terran, only to lose the game because of one Sentinel Missile. Just like it isn't fun to watch a Terran try over and over and over again to get the golden mine shot and fail, thus losing by default to Muta-Ling. Tempering the mine so that it does less volatile damage (and maybe more often), is only good for the players and the viewers, not to mention the game overall. I'd agree with you except that the micro of top zergs recently has basically been making it so mines only ever detonate at best barely above cost efficient, and at worst on top of there own army. While I'm not a huge fan of the unit itself, terran is going to be without hope if this patch goes through without recompense.
I absolutely disagree. A Widow Mine can kill up to 16 Banelings in one shot. Reducing the radius from 1.75 to 1.25 (a reduction of about 30% in the radius, translating to about a 50% decrease in area) decreases that number to somewhere around 8. I hardly find it underpowered that a Widow Mine can kill up to 8 banelings in one shot instead of 16. And certainly it forces Zerg to split banelings, but since failure to split gas units is so much more costly than failure to split Marines, the intensity is somewhat reduced by decreasing the Widow Mine splash.
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On October 04 2013 02:27 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction' seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots. now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway
Never say never. Remember that any buff in attack speed for tanks is a straight up buff to their damage vs immortals. Maybe if Blizzard makes Hellbats immune to Archon +dmg vs bio, that buff is all you need for a viable TvP mech.
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On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'
Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.
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Canada8157 Posts
If the siege tank buff goes through, TvT will be the most boring match up to watch
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On October 04 2013 02:37 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 02:27 Rhaegal wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction' seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots. now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway Never say never. Remember that any buff in attack speed for tanks is a straight up buff to their damage vs immortals. Maybe if Blizzard makes Hellbats immune to Archon +dmg vs bio, that buff is all you need for a viable TvP mech.
Immortals are only a small problem for tanks. The main issue is that every protoss unit is effective vs them. Also, way too many are needed to secure positions vs blink stalkers or chargelot warpins. I think a supply decrease and a damage nerf would have been the way to go.
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On October 04 2013 02:34 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 02:25 bo1b wrote:On October 04 2013 02:21 Shantastic wrote:On October 04 2013 01:39 bo1b wrote:
That is a fucking massive nerf to biomine holy shit.
Seems stupidly out of place when zerg is clearly starting to start winning zvt, if not have an advantage (statistically at least) in korean zvt. It's not about one race or another winning. It's about the unit itself being really stupid. Widow mines are borderline coin-flippy because it's all about exploiting a single micro mistake from Zerg swinging games massively into favors. I'd be all for reducing the cost or cooldown of the Widow Mine and its attack, respectively. Gas units that have huge, powerful, game-winning attacks, with one big disadvantage lend themselves to volatile, annoyingly coin-flippy games. It's not fun to watch a Zerg slowly climb ahead just by playing cost-efficiently against Terran, only to lose the game because of one Sentinel Missile. Just like it isn't fun to watch a Terran try over and over and over again to get the golden mine shot and fail, thus losing by default to Muta-Ling. Tempering the mine so that it does less volatile damage (and maybe more often), is only good for the players and the viewers, not to mention the game overall. I'd agree with you except that the micro of top zergs recently has basically been making it so mines only ever detonate at best barely above cost efficient, and at worst on top of there own army. While I'm not a huge fan of the unit itself, terran is going to be without hope if this patch goes through without recompense. I absolutely disagree. A Widow Mine can kill up to 16 Banelings in one shot. Reducing the radius from 1.75 to 1.25 (a reduction of about 30% in the radius, translating to about a 50% decrease in area) decreases that number to somewhere around 8. I hardly find it underpowered that a Widow Mine can kill up to 8 banelings in one shot instead of 16. And certainly it forces Zerg to split banelings, but since failure to split gas units is so much more costly than failure to split Marines, the intensity is somewhat reduced by decreasing the Widow Mine splash.
I didn't say anything about the potential for a mine hit to do more damage, I said recently zergs have been splitting there banelings into small groups and severely limiting the damage that widowmines actually do in engagements.
Drg vs innovation, curious vs innovation, hyvaa vs innovation, (probably the best example of how despite taking more damage then the other examples the widow mines never really tipped the balance like you're indicating) have all shown vs the best mechanics based tvz player in the world (if not the best tvz player full stop), in which he micros his widow mine shots more then anyone else still has very minimal effectiveness with them.
Again, while the possibility of a widow mine hitting an obscene amount of banelings/zerglings/wiping out a muta flock is certainly still there (and did infact happen in curious vs innovation where curious won anyway), the rate in which it happens is shrinking rapidly, and the effect it has seems to be reduced.
My point still stands btw, if the proposed nerf to terran goes through they will be at such a disadvantage. At least imo.
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@ b1ob:
I didn't say anything about the potential for a mine hit to do more damage, I said recently zergs have been splitting there banelings into small groups and severely limiting the damage that widowmines actually do in engagements.
Drg vs innovation, curious vs innovation, hyvaa vs innovation, (probably the best example of how despite taking more damage then the other examples the widow mines never really tipped the balance like you're indicating) have all shown vs the best mechanics based tvz player in the world (if not the best tvz player full stop), in which he micros his widow mine shots more then anyone else still has very minimal effectiveness with them.
Again, while the possibility of a widow mine hitting an obscene amount of banelings/zerglings/wiping out a muta flock is certainly still there (and did infact happen in curious vs innovation where curious won anyway), the rate in which it happens is shrinking rapidly, and the effect it has seems to be reduced.
My point still stands btw, if the proposed nerf to terran goes through they will be at such a disadvantage. At least imo."
I think your evidence is actually spot on and very important but I think it can support a completely different claim. If zergs have figured out how to micro against WM as your examples suggest, (and I agree that they are figuring it out) then reducing the radius shouldn't change the outcome as much because zergs are setting off mines with 2-3 banelings anyway. In theory tanks have always been the answer to zerg being able to set off mines with a few banelings because against tanks zerg wants to swarm all at once, but against WM your want to attack in small waves until all the mines are spent. So At the top level, if Zergs keep setting off mines with a few units, a radius change won't hurt that much, but an incentive to mix in even a single tank should tip the scales in the terran favor when zerg is going b/ling/muta.
Also a note on the "absolute immobility of tanks" that makes them apparently so shitty: It has already been done in WCS to load up a tank or two (say an early defensive tank) in a turbovac and follow the bio mine army and only drop it when your are ready to set up a siege position. I think it was a european player who did this on belshire vestige in S1 or S2. Maybe lucifron or t-funk, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.
All that being said, Blizz has not addressed the muta factor... People have posted it over and over again so I won't go to far into it, but nerfing WM without either buffing Terran AA options such as the THOR or missle turrets (meh) or nerfing mutas (probably the best and long overdue option) should make mutas even stronger than they are now in the late game.
I guess terrans will have to get creative. One raven per base to drop pdds to help missle turrent lines?? ;P
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On October 04 2013 02:47 Jer99 wrote:
If the siege tank buff goes through, TvT will be the most boring match up to watch
I disagree, I love siege tank wars.
Those battles where siege lines go off the screen on both sides and players have to debate between holding their ground or un-sieging and going for the siege break, or watching a player get gutsy and drop on top of a line of tanks...
To me, those are some of the greatest moments in watching starcraft. Bio is fun to watch, but tanks are the best.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
I think, this patch is good, especially with the Roach burrow speed after speed-upgrade. Hope this ability will be used more often
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I would love to get a pro players opinion or see a balance map where the muta regen is slightly nerfed, so as to make thors actually viable vs them and prevent a zerg getting to 30+ mutas to just win a game.
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On October 04 2013 02:32 shid0x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 02:27 Rhaegal wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction' seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots. now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway This. It made me very mad since wol that a fucking zealot and a colossus would share the same attack upgrade. That makes no fucking sense. At least this terran upgrade fusion is way more credible.
Well, protoss would be completely fucked if upgrates werent combined :D
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On October 04 2013 03:54 bo1b wrote:
I would love to get a pro players opinion or see a balance map where the muta regen is slightly nerfed, so as to make thors actually viable vs them and prevent a zerg getting to 30+ mutas to just win a game.
Or, since Blizzard is in the mood these days for specialized buffs/nerfs (like the widow mine +20 vs shields, hellbat is biological when in combat mode and mechanical when in car mode), just make the Thor have a special effect where its missle shot nullifies the muta regen for 30 seconds :p
But you're right, we need pros to play out the balance changes (though you still run into the problem of players being biased for their own races, not sure how to get over that hurdle).
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I'm probably missing something, but removing the muta buff in conjunction with the widowmine nerf just makes sense to me. It seems like it would fix a lot of problems in the pvz matchup, mutas couldn't just yolo a few thor shots while killing siege tanks, and the spore crawler buff could finally be removed without turning zvz back into the muta v muta shitfest that it was previously.
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On October 04 2013 04:05 bo1b wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but removing the muta buff in conjunction with the widowmine nerf just makes sense to me. It seems like it would fix a lot of problems in the pvz matchup, mutas couldn't just yolo a few thor shots while killing siege tanks, and the spore crawler buff could finally be removed without turning zvz back into the muta v muta shitfest that it was previously.
Blizzard's balancing of HOTS has gone in a complete circle this way.
Terran needs to harass more > Turbovacs
Zerg can't deal with this intense harass now > Muta speed increased
Mutas are too fast for Protoss now > Phoenix buff, now (possible) Oracle speed buff
Widow mines are too good as AA now > Muta health regen
Muta's are too good now in ZvZ, matchup is stale > Spore buff
*now* Widow mines are too good > radius nerf
so the likely results are...
Muta regen is cut? Thor damage increased? Something else? O.o
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Great to make hots units worse. Why exactly do we have HotS multiplayer?
Zerg need a tier3 unit with missile attack.
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they shouldn't have done Turbovacs and mines that good in the first place 
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On October 04 2013 02:38 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction' Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.
Why?
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 04 2013 04:24 Dingodile wrote:
Great to make hots units worse. Why exactly do we have HotS multiplayer?
Zerg need a tier3 unit with missile attack.
Missle attack? BL :D
Attack, that benefits from ranged upgrades. I call SHs tier 3 for a reason :D
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 04 2013 04:25 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 02:38 rd wrote:On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction' Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good. Why?
Because they can kinda roast zealots faster now, since you want to have attack upgardes on vikings.
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EPT
