• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:57
CEST 01:57
KST 08:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202530RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams2Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Corsair Pursuit Micro?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 604 users

Call to Action: October 2 Balance Testing - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 16 Next All
shid0x
Profile Joined July 2012
Korea (South)5014 Posts
October 03 2013 17:32 GMT
#141
On October 04 2013 02:27 Rhaegal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'


seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots.

now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway


This.
It made me very mad since wol that a fucking zealot and a colossus would share the same attack upgrade.
That makes no fucking sense.

At least this terran upgrade fusion is way more credible.
RIP MKP
Shantastic
Profile Joined October 2011
United States435 Posts
October 03 2013 17:34 GMT
#142
On October 04 2013 02:25 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2013 02:21 Shantastic wrote:
On October 04 2013 01:39 bo1b wrote:
That is a fucking massive nerf to biomine holy shit.

Seems stupidly out of place when zerg is clearly starting to start winning zvt, if not have an advantage (statistically at least) in korean zvt.

It's not about one race or another winning. It's about the unit itself being really stupid. Widow mines are borderline coin-flippy because it's all about exploiting a single micro mistake from Zerg swinging games massively into favors. I'd be all for reducing the cost or cooldown of the Widow Mine and its attack, respectively. Gas units that have huge, powerful, game-winning attacks, with one big disadvantage lend themselves to volatile, annoyingly coin-flippy games. It's not fun to watch a Zerg slowly climb ahead just by playing cost-efficiently against Terran, only to lose the game because of one Sentinel Missile. Just like it isn't fun to watch a Terran try over and over and over again to get the golden mine shot and fail, thus losing by default to Muta-Ling. Tempering the mine so that it does less volatile damage (and maybe more often), is only good for the players and the viewers, not to mention the game overall.

I'd agree with you except that the micro of top zergs recently has basically been making it so mines only ever detonate at best barely above cost efficient, and at worst on top of there own army.

While I'm not a huge fan of the unit itself, terran is going to be without hope if this patch goes through without recompense.


I absolutely disagree. A Widow Mine can kill up to 16 Banelings in one shot. Reducing the radius from 1.75 to 1.25 (a reduction of about 30% in the radius, translating to about a 50% decrease in area) decreases that number to somewhere around 8. I hardly find it underpowered that a Widow Mine can kill up to 8 banelings in one shot instead of 16. And certainly it forces Zerg to split banelings, but since failure to split gas units is so much more costly than failure to split Marines, the intensity is somewhat reduced by decreasing the Widow Mine splash.
"My grandpa could have proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, but he's also dead." -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
Shantastic
Profile Joined October 2011
United States435 Posts
October 03 2013 17:37 GMT
#143
On October 04 2013 02:27 Rhaegal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'


seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots.

now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway


Never say never. Remember that any buff in attack speed for tanks is a straight up buff to their damage vs immortals. Maybe if Blizzard makes Hellbats immune to Archon +dmg vs bio, that buff is all you need for a viable TvP mech.
"My grandpa could have proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, but he's also dead." -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-03 17:48:12
October 03 2013 17:38 GMT
#144
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'


Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8157 Posts
October 03 2013 17:47 GMT
#145
If the siege tank buff goes through, TvT will be the most boring match up to watch
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
Rhaegal
Profile Blog Joined July 2013
United States678 Posts
October 03 2013 17:55 GMT
#146
On October 04 2013 02:37 Shantastic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2013 02:27 Rhaegal wrote:
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'


seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots.

now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway


Never say never. Remember that any buff in attack speed for tanks is a straight up buff to their damage vs immortals. Maybe if Blizzard makes Hellbats immune to Archon +dmg vs bio, that buff is all you need for a viable TvP mech.



Immortals are only a small problem for tanks. The main issue is that every protoss unit is effective vs them. Also, way too many are needed to secure positions vs blink stalkers or chargelot warpins. I think a supply decrease and a damage nerf would have been the way to go.
http://www.twitch.tv/agonysc
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
October 03 2013 18:10 GMT
#147
On October 04 2013 02:34 Shantastic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2013 02:25 bo1b wrote:
On October 04 2013 02:21 Shantastic wrote:
On October 04 2013 01:39 bo1b wrote:
That is a fucking massive nerf to biomine holy shit.

Seems stupidly out of place when zerg is clearly starting to start winning zvt, if not have an advantage (statistically at least) in korean zvt.

It's not about one race or another winning. It's about the unit itself being really stupid. Widow mines are borderline coin-flippy because it's all about exploiting a single micro mistake from Zerg swinging games massively into favors. I'd be all for reducing the cost or cooldown of the Widow Mine and its attack, respectively. Gas units that have huge, powerful, game-winning attacks, with one big disadvantage lend themselves to volatile, annoyingly coin-flippy games. It's not fun to watch a Zerg slowly climb ahead just by playing cost-efficiently against Terran, only to lose the game because of one Sentinel Missile. Just like it isn't fun to watch a Terran try over and over and over again to get the golden mine shot and fail, thus losing by default to Muta-Ling. Tempering the mine so that it does less volatile damage (and maybe more often), is only good for the players and the viewers, not to mention the game overall.

I'd agree with you except that the micro of top zergs recently has basically been making it so mines only ever detonate at best barely above cost efficient, and at worst on top of there own army.

While I'm not a huge fan of the unit itself, terran is going to be without hope if this patch goes through without recompense.


I absolutely disagree. A Widow Mine can kill up to 16 Banelings in one shot. Reducing the radius from 1.75 to 1.25 (a reduction of about 30% in the radius, translating to about a 50% decrease in area) decreases that number to somewhere around 8. I hardly find it underpowered that a Widow Mine can kill up to 8 banelings in one shot instead of 16. And certainly it forces Zerg to split banelings, but since failure to split gas units is so much more costly than failure to split Marines, the intensity is somewhat reduced by decreasing the Widow Mine splash.

I didn't say anything about the potential for a mine hit to do more damage, I said recently zergs have been splitting there banelings into small groups and severely limiting the damage that widowmines actually do in engagements.

Drg vs innovation, curious vs innovation, hyvaa vs innovation, (probably the best example of how despite taking more damage then the other examples the widow mines never really tipped the balance like you're indicating) have all shown vs the best mechanics based tvz player in the world (if not the best tvz player full stop), in which he micros his widow mine shots more then anyone else still has very minimal effectiveness with them.

Again, while the possibility of a widow mine hitting an obscene amount of banelings/zerglings/wiping out a muta flock is certainly still there (and did infact happen in curious vs innovation where curious won anyway), the rate in which it happens is shrinking rapidly, and the effect it has seems to be reduced.

My point still stands btw, if the proposed nerf to terran goes through they will be at such a disadvantage. At least imo.
Doc Brawler
Profile Joined November 2011
United States260 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-03 18:45:21
October 03 2013 18:40 GMT
#148
@ b1ob:

I didn't say anything about the potential for a mine hit to do more damage, I said recently zergs have been splitting there banelings into small groups and severely limiting the damage that widowmines actually do in engagements.

Drg vs innovation, curious vs innovation, hyvaa vs innovation, (probably the best example of how despite taking more damage then the other examples the widow mines never really tipped the balance like you're indicating) have all shown vs the best mechanics based tvz player in the world (if not the best tvz player full stop), in which he micros his widow mine shots more then anyone else still has very minimal effectiveness with them.

Again, while the possibility of a widow mine hitting an obscene amount of banelings/zerglings/wiping out a muta flock is certainly still there (and did infact happen in curious vs innovation where curious won anyway), the rate in which it happens is shrinking rapidly, and the effect it has seems to be reduced.

My point still stands btw, if the proposed nerf to terran goes through they will be at such a disadvantage. At least imo."

I think your evidence is actually spot on and very important but I think it can support a completely different claim. If zergs have figured out how to micro against WM as your examples suggest, (and I agree that they are figuring it out) then reducing the radius shouldn't change the outcome as much because zergs are setting off mines with 2-3 banelings anyway. In theory tanks have always been the answer to zerg being able to set off mines with a few banelings because against tanks zerg wants to swarm all at once, but against WM your want to attack in small waves until all the mines are spent. So At the top level, if Zergs keep setting off mines with a few units, a radius change won't hurt that much, but an incentive to mix in even a single tank should tip the scales in the terran favor when zerg is going b/ling/muta.
Also a note on the "absolute immobility of tanks" that makes them apparently so shitty: It has already been done in WCS to load up a tank or two (say an early defensive tank) in a turbovac and follow the bio mine army and only drop it when your are ready to set up a siege position. I think it was a european player who did this on belshire vestige in S1 or S2. Maybe lucifron or t-funk, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.

All that being said, Blizz has not addressed the muta factor... People have posted it over and over again so I won't go to far into it, but nerfing WM without either buffing Terran AA options such as the THOR or missle turrets (meh) or nerfing mutas (probably the best and long overdue option) should make mutas even stronger than they are now in the late game.

I guess terrans will have to get creative. One raven per base to drop pdds to help missle turrent lines?? ;P
I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds
CakeSauc3
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1437 Posts
October 03 2013 18:43 GMT
#149
On October 04 2013 02:47 Jer99 wrote:
If the siege tank buff goes through, TvT will be the most boring match up to watch


I disagree, I love siege tank wars.

Those battles where siege lines go off the screen on both sides and players have to debate between holding their ground or un-sieging and going for the siege break, or watching a player get gutsy and drop on top of a line of tanks...

To me, those are some of the greatest moments in watching starcraft. Bio is fun to watch, but tanks are the best.
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-04 01:22:00
October 03 2013 18:54 GMT
#150
I think, this patch is good, especially with the Roach burrow speed after speed-upgrade. Hope this ability will be used more often
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
October 03 2013 18:54 GMT
#151
I would love to get a pro players opinion or see a balance map where the muta regen is slightly nerfed, so as to make thors actually viable vs them and prevent a zerg getting to 30+ mutas to just win a game.
TheBloodyDwarf
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Finland7524 Posts
October 03 2013 19:02 GMT
#152
On October 04 2013 02:32 shid0x wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2013 02:27 Rhaegal wrote:
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'


seems good to me. Was kinda dumb that Protoss immortals and collosi shared upgrades with stalkers/zealots.

now terran has something similar. not like we are ever gonna make tanks in the matchup anyway


This.
It made me very mad since wol that a fucking zealot and a colossus would share the same attack upgrade.
That makes no fucking sense.

At least this terran upgrade fusion is way more credible.

Well, protoss would be completely fucked if upgrates werent combined :D
Fusilero: "I still can't believe he did that, like dude what the fuck there's fandom and then there's what he did like holy shit. I still see it when I close my eyes." <- reaction to the original drunk santa post which later caught on
CakeSauc3
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1437 Posts
October 03 2013 19:03 GMT
#153
On October 04 2013 03:54 bo1b wrote:
I would love to get a pro players opinion or see a balance map where the muta regen is slightly nerfed, so as to make thors actually viable vs them and prevent a zerg getting to 30+ mutas to just win a game.


Or, since Blizzard is in the mood these days for specialized buffs/nerfs (like the widow mine +20 vs shields, hellbat is biological when in combat mode and mechanical when in car mode), just make the Thor have a special effect where its missle shot nullifies the muta regen for 30 seconds :p

But you're right, we need pros to play out the balance changes (though you still run into the problem of players being biased for their own races, not sure how to get over that hurdle).
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
October 03 2013 19:05 GMT
#154
I'm probably missing something, but removing the muta buff in conjunction with the widowmine nerf just makes sense to me. It seems like it would fix a lot of problems in the pvz matchup, mutas couldn't just yolo a few thor shots while killing siege tanks, and the spore crawler buff could finally be removed without turning zvz back into the muta v muta shitfest that it was previously.
CakeSauc3
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1437 Posts
October 03 2013 19:15 GMT
#155
On October 04 2013 04:05 bo1b wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but removing the muta buff in conjunction with the widowmine nerf just makes sense to me. It seems like it would fix a lot of problems in the pvz matchup, mutas couldn't just yolo a few thor shots while killing siege tanks, and the spore crawler buff could finally be removed without turning zvz back into the muta v muta shitfest that it was previously.


Blizzard's balancing of HOTS has gone in a complete circle this way.

Terran needs to harass more > Turbovacs
Zerg can't deal with this intense harass now > Muta speed increased
Mutas are too fast for Protoss now > Phoenix buff, now (possible) Oracle speed buff
Widow mines are too good as AA now > Muta health regen
Muta's are too good now in ZvZ, matchup is stale > Spore buff
*now* Widow mines are too good > radius nerf

so the likely results are...

Muta regen is cut? Thor damage increased? Something else? O.o
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
October 03 2013 19:24 GMT
#156
Great to make hots units worse. Why exactly do we have HotS multiplayer?
Zerg need a tier3 unit with missile attack.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
sacade
Profile Joined January 2013
166 Posts
October 03 2013 19:25 GMT
#157
they shouldn't have done Turbovacs and mines that good in the first place
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
October 03 2013 19:25 GMT
#158
On October 04 2013 02:38 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'


Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.


Why?
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
October 03 2013 19:27 GMT
#159
On October 04 2013 04:24 Dingodile wrote:
Great to make hots units worse. Why exactly do we have HotS multiplayer?
Zerg need a tier3 unit with missile attack.

Missle attack? BL :D
Attack, that benefits from ranged upgrades. I call SHs tier 3 for a reason :D
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
October 03 2013 19:28 GMT
#160
On October 04 2013 04:25 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2013 02:38 rd wrote:
On October 04 2013 00:34 a176 wrote:
I don't understand why giving vikings free upgrades is considered 'a step in the right direction'


Skyterran transitions are more viable in TvT/TvZ (sorta), mixing hellbats (and in the future if theyre buffed thors) into TvP is also more viable. Theres no other significant impacts. These changes would mean more diversity though, and diversity = good.


Why?

Because they can kinda roast zealots faster now, since you want to have attack upgardes on vikings.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 16 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 10h 3m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 211
Liquid`TLO 170
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 994
NaDa 67
Aegong 38
Dota 2
monkeys_forever220
League of Legends
syndereN554
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1408
flusha341
Coldzera 160
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox246
AZ_Axe90
Other Games
tarik_tv8509
Grubby2368
Day[9].tv1005
shahzam504
C9.Mang0271
ViBE190
Maynarde148
Livibee79
Liquid`Ken10
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1194
BasetradeTV32
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• RyuSc2 57
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22193
League of Legends
• Doublelift5097
Other Games
• Scarra1585
• Day9tv1005
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
10h 3m
ByuN vs Zoun
SHIN vs TriGGeR
Cyan vs ShoWTimE
Rogue vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs Solar
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
Esports World Cup
1d 10h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.