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On September 11 2013 12:37 darkness wrote:
Last time I was following BW scene, Bisu was still in huge decline. So I doubt SC2 was the main contributor for his retirement. It's just one out of many.
his record for bw from 2011 to 2012:
All 77 wins - 29 losses (72.64%)
vT 29 wins - 8 losses (78.38%)
vZ 26 wins - 7 losses (78.79%)
vP 22 wins - 14 losses (61.11%)
he broke the most number of wins in a proleague season with 63 wins and 15 losses in 2011.
he won mvp for 2011 for his performance.
he helped skt to 2nd place in proleague for 2011 and 1st in 2012.
he transitioned to sc2 along with kespa with 2nd highest ELO.
hardly a decline.
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I am Boxer fanboy, so I do understand how you old school protoss feel. These old school players are our inspiration. When they retire, I lost a lot of motivation and pasion for the game.
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On September 11 2013 13:19 OopsOopsBaby wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 12:37 darkness wrote:
Last time I was following BW scene, Bisu was still in huge decline. So I doubt SC2 was the main contributor for his retirement. It's just one out of many. his record for bw from 2011 to 2012: All 77 wins - 29 losses (72.64%) vT 29 wins - 8 losses (78.38%) vZ 26 wins - 7 losses (78.79%) vP 22 wins - 14 losses (61.11%) he broke the most number of wins in a proleague season with 63 wins and 15 losses in 2011. he won mvp for 2011 for his performance. he helped skt to 2nd place in proleague for 2011 and 1st in 2012. he transitioned to sc2 along with kespa with 2nd highest ELO. hardly a decline.
ownnneddddd!!!
now don't you ever talk bad about bisu again!
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I think there will be a Kespa revolt soon. BW is too good of a game to die off like that.
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France77 Posts
I hope he will do well in life... Such an inspiring person.
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On September 11 2013 13:14 lolmlg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 12:52 kamkerx wrote:On September 11 2013 11:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:On September 11 2013 00:30 Malgox wrote:
This is exactly why SC2 should be played as a team game. Look at how successful LoL is. We can be certain from that game that the team aspect is what promotes skill and competition. Nothing to do with being a "team game"; it just means SC2 isn't good enough to compete. This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them. Even the players that do manage to do well in SC2 (Innovation, Taeja) end up very short lived which is highly unnatural. I can only imagine the turmoil Bisu experienced after his transition when SC2 Protoss is what he had to work with. BW needed a successor to help the SC series (and RTS genre) compete with modern games, but I don't think SC2 fulfilled this role well enough. No SC2 is not dying, but it's not really a strong enough successor to retain the same position BW had (BW beat DoTA to my knowledge). It's kind of like tepid tea. not like innovation has been standing out from other terrans for months now, and not like drg stood out for taking down innovation in a bo3... Weren't we just talking about Innovation's embarrassing decline like, a week before that? "Innovation is nowhere near the player he once was" blah blah blah? And then a player who had his own embarrassing decline beats him in a measly best of three and everyone gets excited? Hyperbole killing e-sports.
We have to work with what we got. TT
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This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now.
Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination)
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On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:Show nested quote +
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination)
What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling?
Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey?
Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it.
You needed to be better to play BW at even play at highest level but for both games the amount of skill you can show in any game is indeed infinite. So if Bisu so much better than large portion of players in Korea in even mechanical department, he would surely be able to do well. Actually i would wonder what would happen if Bisu retired from BW :3 Would we see those 'BW is crap' shouts or something? No, so please shut up on game bashing.
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On September 11 2013 20:07 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it. You needed to be better to play BW at even play at highest level but for both games the amount of skill you can show in any game is indeed infinite. So if Bisu so much better than large portion of players in Korea in even mechanical department, he would surely be able to do well. Actually i would wonder what would happen if Bisu retired from BW :3 Would we see those 'BW is crap' shouts or something? No, so please shut up on game bashing.
there is a fine line between fantasizing about a specific occurrence and the reality that flashed right between our lives...
+ Show Spoiler +Learn to deal with the latter one.
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On September 11 2013 20:07 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it. You needed to be better to play BW at even play at highest level but for both games the amount of skill you can show in any game is indeed infinite. So if Bisu so much better than large portion of players in Korea in even mechanical department, he would surely be able to do well. Actually i would wonder what would happen if Bisu retired from BW :3 Would we see those 'BW is crap' shouts or something? No, so please shut up on game bashing.
Bisu didn't retire from BW.
BW retired from Bisu.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 11 2013 20:36 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 20:07 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it. You needed to be better to play BW at even play at highest level but for both games the amount of skill you can show in any game is indeed infinite. So if Bisu so much better than large portion of players in Korea in even mechanical department, he would surely be able to do well. Actually i would wonder what would happen if Bisu retired from BW :3 Would we see those 'BW is crap' shouts or something? No, so please shut up on game bashing. Bisu didn't retire from BW. BW retired from Bisu.
Sorry, forgot to bold and caps lock word 'IF'. Either way we are not talking about Soviet Russia here, do we?
+ Show Spoiler +either way, gl to Bisu in whatever he chooses to pursue further on and should probably copypaste it in each my post in this thread from now on.
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On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it.
Don't blame the game.
If anything, it just means bisu isn't able to adapt to the new game and that's all.
We see tonnes of bw players managed to get the transition into sc2 just fine. Flash is even not playing his defensive turtling style and still performing well.
The fact that Bisu is unable to out perform his opponents just means he is lacking something in his play.
What you are suggesting is that Bisu out plays his opponent by able to tel his workers to mine and use seperate control groups.
And you are even comparing players level from bw? It's a different game, we have players doing consistently well, stop blaming the game.
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On September 11 2013 21:07 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it. Don't blame the game. If anything, it just means bisu isn't able to adapt to the new game and that's all. We see tonnes of bw players managed to get the transition into sc2 just fine. Flash is even not playing his defensive turtling style and still performing well. The fact that Bisu is unable to out perform his opponents just means he is lacking something in his play. What you are suggesting is that Bisu out plays his opponent by able to tel his workers to mine and use seperate control groups. And you are even comparing players level from bw? It's a different game, we have players doing consistently well, stop blaming the game.
thats exactly what hes suggesting. when it came to opponents who had the same level of understanding of the game as him, bisu beat them because his mechanics were simply far more superior. he was able to do so many things at once that the opponent simply could not keep up. sc2 has effectively destroyed bisu's greatest strength by dumbing down the game.
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4713 Posts
On September 11 2013 21:10 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 21:07 ETisME wrote:On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it. Don't blame the game. If anything, it just means bisu isn't able to adapt to the new game and that's all. We see tonnes of bw players managed to get the transition into sc2 just fine. Flash is even not playing his defensive turtling style and still performing well. The fact that Bisu is unable to out perform his opponents just means he is lacking something in his play. What you are suggesting is that Bisu out plays his opponent by able to tel his workers to mine and use seperate control groups. And you are even comparing players level from bw? It's a different game, we have players doing consistently well, stop blaming the game. thats exactly what hes suggesting. when it came to opponents who had the same level of understanding of the game as him, bisu beat them because his mechanics were simply far more superior. he was able to do so many things at once that the opponent simply could not keep up. sc2 has effectively destroyed bisu's greatest strength by dumbing down the game.
Sad thing Bisu never tried to switch officially from P to T in SC2, it could have spoken volumes about the racial design of SC2 if he did manage to find more success with T, but I guess if you are born a Toss, you die a toss.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 11 2013 21:16 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 21:10 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 11 2013 21:07 ETisME wrote:On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it. Don't blame the game. If anything, it just means bisu isn't able to adapt to the new game and that's all. We see tonnes of bw players managed to get the transition into sc2 just fine. Flash is even not playing his defensive turtling style and still performing well. The fact that Bisu is unable to out perform his opponents just means he is lacking something in his play. What you are suggesting is that Bisu out plays his opponent by able to tel his workers to mine and use seperate control groups. And you are even comparing players level from bw? It's a different game, we have players doing consistently well, stop blaming the game. thats exactly what hes suggesting. when it came to opponents who had the same level of understanding of the game as him, bisu beat them because his mechanics were simply far more superior. he was able to do so many things at once that the opponent simply could not keep up. sc2 has effectively destroyed bisu's greatest strength by dumbing down the game. Sad thing Bisu never tried to switch officially from P to T in SC2, it could have spoken volumes about the racial design of SC2 if he did manage to find more success with T, but I guess if you are born a Toss, you die a toss.
According to some, Bisu tried to switch, but never figured out TvT. Boom!
Ehem... I guess i should probably watch original games, because all i have seen is Bisu playing against SC1's built-in AI(that was never ever figured out to be properly good, since game was so screwed up in game management department).
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On September 11 2013 21:07 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it. Don't blame the game. If anything, it just means bisu isn't able to adapt to the new game and that's all. We see tonnes of bw players managed to get the transition into sc2 just fine. Flash is even not playing his defensive turtling style and still performing well. The fact that Bisu is unable to out perform his opponents just means he is lacking something in his play. What you are suggesting is that Bisu out plays his opponent by able to tel his workers to mine and use seperate control groups. And you are even comparing players level from bw? It's a different game, we have players doing consistently well, stop blaming the game.
Why not blame the game? Not Bisu's fault that all his strengths are mitigated by Protoss design in SC2. That said I do feel his strengths would have still been in evidence with SC2 Terran, would have liked to have at least seen him attempt that rather than retire 
If it's a different game, why do the transition in the first place? Starcraft 2 is piggybacking on the success of its predecessor after all, the expectation is for it to be a continuation of what made its predecessor good.
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On September 11 2013 21:16 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 21:10 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 11 2013 21:07 ETisME wrote:On September 11 2013 18:01 Gruntt wrote:On September 11 2013 16:22 Sejanus wrote:
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now. Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination) What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling? Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey? Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it. Don't blame the game. If anything, it just means bisu isn't able to adapt to the new game and that's all. We see tonnes of bw players managed to get the transition into sc2 just fine. Flash is even not playing his defensive turtling style and still performing well. The fact that Bisu is unable to out perform his opponents just means he is lacking something in his play. What you are suggesting is that Bisu out plays his opponent by able to tel his workers to mine and use seperate control groups. And you are even comparing players level from bw? It's a different game, we have players doing consistently well, stop blaming the game. thats exactly what hes suggesting. when it came to opponents who had the same level of understanding of the game as him, bisu beat them because his mechanics were simply far more superior. he was able to do so many things at once that the opponent simply could not keep up. sc2 has effectively destroyed bisu's greatest strength by dumbing down the game. Sad thing Bisu never tried to switch officially from P to T in SC2, it could have spoken volumes about the racial design of SC2 if he did manage to find more success with T, but I guess if you are born a Toss, you die a toss.
But he may have left anyways. He has been a progamer for 8 years and he may have been ready to move on to new things. People do change over time and he wants to see the world beyond progaming. 23 is an age where people switch up their lives.
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EPT
