This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now.
Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination)
What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling?
Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey?
Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it.
Don't blame the game. If anything, it just means bisu isn't able to adapt to the new game and that's all. We see tonnes of bw players managed to get the transition into sc2 just fine. Flash is even not playing his defensive turtling style and still performing well. The fact that Bisu is unable to out perform his opponents just means he is lacking something in his play. What you are suggesting is that Bisu out plays his opponent by able to tel his workers to mine and use seperate control groups. And you are even comparing players level from bw? It's a different game, we have players doing consistently well, stop blaming the game.
Why not blame the game? Not Bisu's fault that all his strengths are mitigated by Protoss design in SC2. That said I do feel his strengths would have still been in evidence with SC2 Terran, would have liked to have at least seen him attempt that rather than retire If it's a different game, why do the transition in the first place? Starcraft 2 is piggybacking on the success of its predecessor after all, the expectation is for it to be a continuation of what made its predecessor good.
Ask KeSPA and Blizzards for reasons behind the transition. Next, Bisu actually was trying SC2 terran but i heard he was failing in TvT and due to that refused the idea of switch(since if you ask me, TvT is not ruled by mechanics as much as TvZ and TvP (and it is a reason Innovation is kinda bad at TvT)). Also, i believe Bisu could actually abuse multitasking and superior mechanics in case of toss (excuse me, i never ever ever watch protoss games in BW so i have no clue what the hell i am talking about).
On September 11 2013 21:18 DiMano wrote: time to watch this
Ehem... I guess i should probably watch original games, because all i have seen is Bisu playing against SC1's built-in AI(that was never ever figured out to be properly good, since game was so screwed up in game management department).
Ehem... I guess i should probably watch original games, because all i have seen is Bisu playing against SC1's built-in AI(that was never ever figured out to be properly good, since game was so screwed up in game management department).
wat
Wat as in part that i have seen DTs freely walking in to the park and wiping out something or some other way of Bisu stomping someone. Or wat as in part that SC1's built-in AI was completely screwed up, because Blizzard due to specific of game never figured correct difficulty of it?
Ehem... I guess i should probably watch original games, because all i have seen is Bisu playing against SC1's built-in AI(that was never ever figured out to be properly good, since game was so screwed up in game management department).
wat
Wat as in part that i have seen DTs freely walking in to the park and wiping out something or some other way of Bisu stomping someone. Or wat as in part that SC1's built-in AI was completely screwed up, because Blizzard due to specific of game never figured correct difficulty of it?
That highlight video is truly not good, imo. When I saw it, I was like "er... what?"
This one is much better:
But regardless, actual games are definitely better.
EDIT:
This one in particular is my favorite, a great example of even pre-peak Bisu totally outplaying a fellow pro player (notably, Roro! Apparently he is relevant in SC2). The last 2 minutes of the game show two players who are on relatively equal footing suddenly having a great disparity between them due to Bisu's multitask.
On September 09 2013 11:17 askmc70 wrote: jesus christ david kim do something
Oh no, David Him has to leave. Blizzard should hire somebody with completely different unit design philosophies who knows what they're talking about and how the game should work and not a guy who will listen to nobody, let alone people who give feedback from the professional scene.
I assume you forgot this patch and the horror David Kim unleashed upon the professional scene for almost a full year......
I cannot blame Bisu for retiring. What would you rather play? An imbalanced game with a stagnant meta that your team is forcing you to play or the game you used to play that you were good at and passionate for. I really hope to see him in SSL in the future.
sc2 is like anakin skywalker. it was supposed to be the chosen game to bring all scenes (wc3, sc:bw) together, but instead it just destroyed everything
On September 09 2013 11:17 askmc70 wrote: jesus christ david kim do something
Oh no, David Him has to leave. Blizzard should hire somebody with completely different unit design philosophies who knows what they're talking about and how the game should work and not a guy who will listen to nobody, let alone people who give feedback from the professional scene.
I assume you forgot this patch and the horror David Kim unleashed upon the professional scene for almost a full year......
I cannot blame Bisu for retiring. What would you rather play? An imbalanced game with a stagnant meta that your team is forcing you to play or the game you used to play that you were good at and passionate for. I really hope to see him in SSL in the future.
More those geniuses with ideas of how game should work please! I always have a good laugh at their ideas (and yes, i dare to claim that while queen patch was slight overkill, it just unleashed the real problems of match-ups, nothing else).
On September 09 2013 11:17 askmc70 wrote: jesus christ david kim do something
Oh no, David Him has to leave. Blizzard should hire somebody with completely different unit design philosophies who knows what they're talking about and how the game should work and not a guy who will listen to nobody, let alone people who give feedback from the professional scene.
I assume you forgot this patch and the horror David Kim unleashed upon the professional scene for almost a full year......
I cannot blame Bisu for retiring. What would you rather play? An imbalanced game with a stagnant meta that your team is forcing you to play or the game you used to play that you were good at and passionate for. I really hope to see him in SSL in the future.
More those geniuses with ideas of how game should work please! I always have a good laugh at their ideas (and yes, i dare to claim that while queen patch was slight overkill, it just unleashed the real problems of match-ups, nothing else).
Let's look further into why David Kim made these changes:
Globally, all matchups below pro-level are pretty balanced.
We aren’t currently seeing any problems with non-pro-level matchups, but as always, we’re watching them very carefully on a weekly basis.We want changes we're making to balance at this time to be small, strategic adjustments that will only affect pro-level play.
Zerg at the pro-level are struggling a bit to scout effectively in the early game. This is tricky to balance, because we do not want to hinder sneaky strategies or tactical early play vs. zerg. Our goal here is to improve zerg scouting, but not to the point where other races feel like they can’t or shouldn’t make any strategic early moves vs. zerg.
Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
Protoss at the pro-level are doing well, but not at the very top of the pro-level. At this time, we’re keeping a very close eye on this, and preparing to make any necessary adjustments.
We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much. We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
The problem is that you watched tournaments around the time like Lone Star Clash and you saw players like Stephano hold hellion aggression from top class Terran players like Polt without losing much at all. The Queen change was not only unncessary but it broke every ZvT and ZvP by making Terran and Protoss unable to actually break the Zerg, at least until the Sentry Immortal all in was discovered and put to good use by PartinG.
The worst that could honestly happen in TvZ was that a Queen could be kited off creep and very slowly whittled down due to Hellions outranging them by 1 (it was also an example of punishing players for bad micro and bad timings. Then this patch came and the Queen was unkiteable and it made reactor hellions before second CC too economically damaging for the Terran. Worse, 2 rax (also a legit aggression build that could be easily shut down by making Zerglings or a spine crawler in the correct spot) became unviable too.
David Kim approached this wrongly. Zergs weren't really having trouble with Hellion aggression and those that were often made mistakes in their play or were killed by not scouting the Banshee follow-up, which is easily counterable with a spore crawler in each base.
People had urged him not to make the change and to later revoke it and he didn't. The result? Patchzergs. Players who initially had little success in SC2 were suddenly skyrockering in results due to the ease in defending aggression and the sheer strength of the Zerg late game compared to the Terran and Protoss compositions.
Something else I disagree with.... a lot of the later changes made in HotS (such as Tempests being the counter to Brood Lords and Seeker Missiles finally having the same range AND Energy cost as Fungal Growth, Feedback and Psionic Storm) could have been applied to Wings of Liberty in order to fix the glaring balance issues with Terran and Protoss air.
You could have buffed the range of Carriers and increased Interceptor damage to Massive in order to make them a viable counter to Infestor Brood Lord Ultralisk and not made them so easily neurallable. That effectively would have nullified the need for the Tempest when the Carrier would fulfill the same role and not a role that the Colossus and Immortal already perform well. In addition, Ravens were complete and utter crap except in certain situations (i.e. a variation of the TvP 1/1/1 all in where PDDs could be used to negate Stalker fire temporarily or the ultra late game on GSL Metropolis where you would actually have the Ravens and Seeker Missiles needed to actually hold off an Infestor Brood Lord Corruptor push.
Now look where we are now. MC made a (very legit) complaint in a blog post about the metagame being stagnant-as-hell. Let's be honest, when have we EVER seen a Terran not go bio or biomine in TvZ or TvP in the last few months. The fact is it's cheap, it's powerful, it's expendable and it's damn-straight the only thing Terran has that isn't hard-countered by mid-game aggression.
We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much. We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
If David Kim feared that the offensive capabilities of Terran in the early/mid game were too much in WoL over a year ago, then why the fuck did he give Medivacs stim? Stimivacs were really dominant in early game HotS until Protoss began to learn more of how to deal with it. Other than that, it is still impossible to beat an ultra-late-game Protoss composition with just bio, biohellbat or biomine, chargelots are still cleaving apart MMM even with Hellbat support and the only way to beat Protoss is still being outright aggressive with bio and hoping to get a few lucky drops in.
Core changes that could have turned Wings from "OPPAN PATCHZERG STYLE" to legitimately balanced and core changes that could have turned HotS from "one viable comp vs one viable comp" to a true successor to Brood War with a large amount of strategies available were made months or even years too late or so far have been outright ignored.
On September 09 2013 11:17 askmc70 wrote: jesus christ david kim do something
Oh no, David Him has to leave. Blizzard should hire somebody with completely different unit design philosophies who knows what they're talking about and how the game should work and not a guy who will listen to nobody, let alone people who give feedback from the professional scene.
I assume you forgot this patch and the horror David Kim unleashed upon the professional scene for almost a full year......
I cannot blame Bisu for retiring. What would you rather play? An imbalanced game with a stagnant meta that your team is forcing you to play or the game you used to play that you were good at and passionate for. I really hope to see him in SSL in the future.
More those geniuses with ideas of how game should work please! I always have a good laugh at their ideas (and yes, i dare to claim that while queen patch was slight overkill, it just unleashed the real problems of match-ups, nothing else).
David Kim really needs to step down, after 3 years there is hardly any improvement. It even got worse imo. Maybe its more balanced but far less fun. And when you balance you don't just take out fun from the equation.
Ehem... I guess i should probably watch original games, because all i have seen is Bisu playing against SC1's built-in AI(that was never ever figured out to be properly good, since game was so screwed up in game management department).
wat
Wat as in part that i have seen DTs freely walking in to the park and wiping out something or some other way of Bisu stomping someone. Or wat as in part that SC1's built-in AI was completely screwed up, because Blizzard due to specific of game never figured correct difficulty of it?
That highlight video is truly not good, imo. When I saw it, I was like "er... what?"
But regardless, actual games are definitely better.
EDIT:
This one in particular is my favorite, a great example of even pre-peak Bisu totally outplaying a fellow pro player (notably, Roro! Apparently he is relevant in SC2). The last 2 minutes of the game show two players who are on relatively equal footing suddenly having a great disparity between them due to Bisu's multitask.
On September 09 2013 11:17 askmc70 wrote: jesus christ david kim do something
Oh no, David Him has to leave. Blizzard should hire somebody with completely different unit design philosophies who knows what they're talking about and how the game should work and not a guy who will listen to nobody, let alone people who give feedback from the professional scene.
I assume you forgot this patch and the horror David Kim unleashed upon the professional scene for almost a full year......
I cannot blame Bisu for retiring. What would you rather play? An imbalanced game with a stagnant meta that your team is forcing you to play or the game you used to play that you were good at and passionate for. I really hope to see him in SSL in the future.
More those geniuses with ideas of how game should work please! I always have a good laugh at their ideas (and yes, i dare to claim that while queen patch was slight overkill, it just unleashed the real problems of match-ups, nothing else).
David Kim really needs to step down, after 3 years there is hardly any improvement. It even got worse imo. Maybe its more balanced but far less fun. And when you balance you don't just take out fun from the equation.
Name me more fun game than Ryung vs DRG soonish after queen patch on Whirlwind with condition of it being played in 2010. Or Gumiho vs Losira series as a whole. From HotS i will just say that it is up to your liking to consider game fun, since there was a fun macro PvP in form of Grubby vs HasuObs (granted, it was game of throws). Only thing that got worse is that worse players are now usually dead in more 1-sided manner. And DK actually gets more clever at balancing with time it seems. That overseer buff (and WP buff) managed to achieve de-facto placebo effect :D
to me this has always been proof of bisu's outstanding mechanics. not his best matchup, but his micro, macro and multitask in this game was unbelievable. and it was against flash
This suggests that if S-class 0.01% percentile gods like Bisu and Jaedong can come over and end up being indistinguishable from most BW D/C-class players then SC2's skill ceiling is much too low and is effectively "killing" them
Exactly like when Michael Jordan, the god of basketball, moved to baseball and was bad at it. Man, baseball skill ceiling is so low, I'm wondering how the game is not yet dead by now.
Fanboys get so funny when their idols turn out to be so human in real life ( as opposed to their counterparts from fanboys imagination)
What, you're actually trying to argue that BW didn't have a higher skill ceiling?
Many of the things that set players apart from the rest were put into auto-mode. Auto-mining and mass building select made macro laughable, smart casting made one of the most difficult aspects of the game trivial, and highlighting an entire army with 1 hotkey?
Don't see how the MJ sport transfer was in any way comparable, that'd be more like Bisu going to go play pro level Counter-Strike and not being amazing at it.
Don't blame the game. If anything, it just means bisu isn't able to adapt to the new game and that's all. We see tonnes of bw players managed to get the transition into sc2 just fine. Flash is even not playing his defensive turtling style and still performing well. The fact that Bisu is unable to out perform his opponents just means he is lacking something in his play. What you are suggesting is that Bisu out plays his opponent by able to tel his workers to mine and use seperate control groups. And you are even comparing players level from bw? It's a different game, we have players doing consistently well, stop blaming the game.
thats exactly what hes suggesting. when it came to opponents who had the same level of understanding of the game as him, bisu beat them because his mechanics were simply far more superior. he was able to do so many things at once that the opponent simply could not keep up. sc2 has effectively destroyed bisu's greatest strength by dumbing down the game.
Sad thing Bisu never tried to switch officially from P to T in SC2, it could have spoken volumes about the racial design of SC2 if he did manage to find more success with T, but I guess if you are born a Toss, you die a toss.
But he may have left anyways. He has been a progamer for 8 years and he may have been ready to move on to new things. People do change over time and he wants to see the world beyond progaming. 23 is an age where people switch up their lives.
When looking at pictures of him or seeing him play I forgot he really is that old in terms of being a gamer, yes perhaps you are right and he might have lost interest in gaming and decided to retire because of his age, though his lack of success probably also contributed.
Thanks to the people who have recently posted some highlight videos of him, I'll get around to watching them one of these days to remember what a great player he was at his best game.
On September 09 2013 11:17 askmc70 wrote: jesus christ david kim do something
Oh no, David Him has to leave. Blizzard should hire somebody with completely different unit design philosophies who knows what they're talking about and how the game should work and not a guy who will listen to nobody, let alone people who give feedback from the professional scene.
I assume you forgot this patch and the horror David Kim unleashed upon the professional scene for almost a full year......
I cannot blame Bisu for retiring. What would you rather play? An imbalanced game with a stagnant meta that your team is forcing you to play or the game you used to play that you were good at and passionate for. I really hope to see him in SSL in the future.
More those geniuses with ideas of how game should work please! I always have a good laugh at their ideas (and yes, i dare to claim that while queen patch was slight overkill, it just unleashed the real problems of match-ups, nothing else).
Lolfail9001, you sure do justice to your nickname on these forums.
Ehem... I guess i should probably watch original games, because all i have seen is Bisu playing against SC1's built-in AI(that was never ever figured out to be properly good, since game was so screwed up in game management department).
wat
Wat as in part that i have seen DTs freely walking in to the park and wiping out something or some other way of Bisu stomping someone. Or wat as in part that SC1's built-in AI was completely screwed up, because Blizzard due to specific of game never figured correct difficulty of it?
That highlight video is truly not good, imo. When I saw it, I was like "er... what?"
But regardless, actual games are definitely better.
EDIT:
This one in particular is my favorite, a great example of even pre-peak Bisu totally outplaying a fellow pro player (notably, Roro! Apparently he is relevant in SC2). The last 2 minutes of the game show two players who are on relatively equal footing suddenly having a great disparity between them due to Bisu's multitask.
EPT
