Bisu retires - Page 53

On September 12 2013 08:21 Caladbolg wrote:


Consensus 1. Not absolutely, but nearly.

On September 12 2013 17:09 Levistus wrote:
can anyone explain to me how protoss played against zerg in bw before bisu revolutionized it? just a very short explanation thanks!

On September 12 2013 19:42 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:


Suprisingly similar to now, except without the corsairs.

Fe wasn't the standard opening (though it wasn't unknown either), and it's alot harder to take your expo early without canons, so there was alot of guesswork in the early game.
1 base openings leave you short on gas for tech, so if you went corsairs often you didn't have the tech to force the zerg respond to you, but would be easier on the guesswork cos you could get scouting.
Basically the midgame is similar to now, but with P in a worse relative economic position, especially regarding gas. You had to use your army to try and essentially kill zerg (which was attempted most of the time), occasionally if you could use that midgame to leverage an expo advantage to yourself to get that giant archon/reaver/ht army before they could get ultras and cracklings. You had to contend with zerg mass drops and overall superior mobility in the midgame because those large corsair fleets were uncommon.

If you didn't either cripple zerg in the midgame, or get enough gas for the archon/reaver/ht army, you effectively lost the game when ultra/ling came out. Basically PvZ was a nightmare back then, it wasn't anywhere near unwinnable, but zerg held all the cards and protoss had to do all the guessing.

On September 12 2013 19:57 evilfatsh1t wrote:
bisu didnt pull it off. he came out of nowhere with an uncommon but very polished build and destroyed people with it.

On September 12 2013 20:39 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Sairs existed in the PvZ metagame before Bisu build (although usually just 1 for scouting), FE existed before Bisu build, Sair DT used to be a common way to take your nat from 1 base openings.

He didn't really invent any of those things, even the actual build was apparently first done by DaezanG.

Bisu's contribution was really just to standardise the build. When Daezang did it, it would have been some novel build that was really unconventional. He did not then proceed to make that either HIS or THE standard PvZ opening.

Bisu used it 3 times in a row to smash the best player at the time, who was considered to be basically invincible at ZvP when it happened.

He then proceeded to use the opening nearly every PvZ he played, showing that it was stable and had reasonable utility with only minor adjustments against all sorts of all-ins, cheeses, and greedy responses from Zerg.

His execution was incredibly clean, his build and adjustments were very polished, his multitasking was miles above any protoss at the time. Yes, other protosses were not able to replicate his success with the build at the time, and it did not immediately become standard, but ultimately it's true measure of success was it's stability.

It was able to take a relatively safe nat, and gave them the gas to get 2 branches of tech while getting upgrades, it gave them good scouting information, good defence against mutalisks and drops (both of which were incredibly common in ZvP at the time), and forced zerg to respond to your tech choices. It was vulnerable against some all-ins, but it was also capable of defending them with sufficient scouting, at the same time it put zerg in a position where if their all-in failed they were probably going to get overrun by the protoss' economic superiority shortly after. Zerg couldn't afford to go all in, then shrug it off and continue with the game as if nothing happened, should their all in fail.

Basically Bisu let the world know, that this wasn't some off-the-wall cheese that was used to take zerg out of their comfort zone, the could know full well it was coming, and they wouldn't be able to a thing about it other than outplay the P in a straight up game fair and square.

On September 12 2013 20:07 lolfail9001 wrote:

I do recall someone saying that Sair-DT did appear before in pro game. It was not polished at all back then though... I may be wrong though, as i did not really follow BW scene.
EDIT: Woah, liquipedia thinks so too http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bisu_Build

On September 12 2013 21:17 evilfatsh1t wrote:

Hence the reason i said uncommon

On September 12 2013 21:28 lolfail9001 wrote:

I did not say that he did common thing better than everyone else. I said that he found uncommon thing with potential and polished it.

On September 12 2013 22:05 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:


Sair DT was fairly common. It was just not generally attached to FE.

It was even quite 'polished' as much as any PvZ build off 1 base can be (1 base PvZ is at a massive disadvantage, you can only polish a turd so much tbh). It was probably the most common way to take your nat off the back of 1 gate tech openings.

FE, wasn't all that polished (although Nal_Ra did kinda do it relatively often), mainly because we've added so much polish on how to perform the forge fast expand now that it happens almost every game.

As a matter of course, it's common knowledge that Bisu didn't invent the Bisu build. Usually we leave it at that, but we've gotten so used to saying that, that I think those of us who were there for the revolution often give off the wrong idea.

He wasn't the first person to do the build, but he may as well have invented it. The build wasn't 'uncommon', 'unusual' or 'unpolished' at the time, it was completely unknown. It couldn't rightfully even be called a build at the time.

DaezanG wasn't so much the inventor of the build, as just the first person to have executed it, there was no concerted effort to standardise it, to find a niche for it, or to exploit a weakness in another build with it. Effectively it was just something he did once, more than a build he had invented.

I think saying DaezanG invented the build gives the idea that people knew of this build as just a choice(albeit an obscure one) in a repertoire of builds. This is really not the case, it's not a case of people not knowing the true power of an existing build, or an obscure build having not had the polish applied to it, such was the lack of awareness of it as 'a build' that it may as well not have existed when Bisu first used it.

It's not really a case of Bisu identifying a build invented by DaezanG as a build with undiscovered potential, so much as Bisu constructing a build that would be stable vs Savior even if he knew it was coming, and it just so happened that DaezanG had already executed such a build before.

On September 12 2013 07:52 Wombat_NI wrote:
Out of interest, how is Bisu regarding in terms of Protoss players in Brood War? The outright greatest or does he occupy a high tier along with others?

On September 12 2013 22:43 Crisium wrote:


We had a nice discussion ranking the top 5 or so Protoss players recently in this thread:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=427397

Almost everyone agrees Bisu is #1. Though a few Nal_rA and Stork fans argue otherwise, of course, and there is credence to placing one or both of them above Bisu depending on what you value for 'greatest'.