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On August 29 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:00 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote:
If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate.... If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base). IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ. Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine. And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
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Just watch flash's stream, even though he has 71% win ratio against Korean zerg in proleague, he gets demolished by some IIIIIIIIII zerg five or six times : http://www.twitch.tv/ktrolsterflash/b/453050408
edit : and every time it's a big macro game with zerg having 5 bases
edit2 : not saying the match-up is imbalanced, just saying zerg clearly has the tools needed to take out a terran on macro game
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On August 29 2013 18:23 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:On August 29 2013 18:00 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote:
If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate.... If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base). IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ. Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine. And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways... There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
i think what he meant it is literally impossible to contaminate 8 production facilities with 4 overseers which have 1 contaminate at max energy...
and how is Z even going to have 8 overseers + ovispeed = 500 gas AND is able to attack you? right now with -500 gas for 30 sec production contaminate = gg since you just die. right now you cant even do a standard attack as Z since you will defend vs 1 1 biomine push all game long. 500 gas for 30 sec no production...yeah well no.
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i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
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On August 29 2013 18:19 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:05 Blisse wrote:On August 29 2013 18:00 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote:
If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate.... If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base). IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ. I love how you assume that a Zerg has enough gas to do a 2-2 timing, with Overlord Speed, with 4x Overseers. I would love to see Contaminate be a standard part of the Meta, but you can't just blindly rush 4 Overseers, Overlord Speed, AND 2-2 unless the other guy has no clue what s/he's doing. You don't have nearly enough gas to be threatening with all those upgrades. What I described is end game 4-5 base 200/200 scenario, where both parties NEED to remax in order to fend off an uneven army trade. I did not imply that the Z was ahead in upgrades, most folks have made that assumption. As others have said, this tactic cannot exist without some form of planning or BO.
I honestly wouldn't see a problem with this. If a terran can throw away 8 marines and a medivac for like 4 drones then not really get affected by it anywhere near as much as zerg is in mid to late game then surely some extra harassment via stopping a rax production for 40 seconds is fair.
W/e, you have some sort of idyllic world where zergs are able to spread creep, make shit, inject, morph banelings, push out with mutas for harass/deny terrans from doing too much damage with their harass and on top of that float in some overseers to stop all terran production. Maybe it's possible for someone with hand speed comparable to jaedong, but I just don't see it ever happening.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
Well to be fair Protoss do have an invisible flying scout which moves pretty fast with observer speed and zerg oftentimes has less anti air than toss/terran.
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On August 29 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base.. Well to be fair Protoss do have an invisible flying scout which moves pretty fast with observer speed and zerg oftentimes has less anti air than toss/terran.
and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
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and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
yeah the most random and cost-uneffective detection of the entire game thanks for point it out ! Scans are very useful to clean tumors and engage armies but scouting tech plz no!
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On August 29 2013 19:06 klup wrote:yeah the most random and cost-uneffective detection of the entire game thanks for point it out ! Scans are very useful to clean tumors and engage armies but scouting tech plz no!
What tech does either terran or protoss have that zerg doesn't know about, and wouldn't know without an ordinary overseer, before a zerg gets a lair, makes an overseer and then upgrades overlord speed?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On August 29 2013 15:57 JorjLim wrote:
I think this is quite good, ok, so it's a bit too fast at the moment, but it's about time that Zerg got a decent 'mobile' detection. Overseers were too slow to catch up with the rest of the Zerg army before, so while Toss had Observers and Terran has Scans, Zerg was left...kinda in the dark.
Also don't forget that this applys for Zerg's supply too.
Also oracle as speedy detection is here too.
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Germany2762 Posts
On August 29 2013 19:07 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 19:06 klup wrote:and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection yeah the most random and cost-uneffective detection of the entire game thanks for point it out ! Scans are very useful to clean tumors and engage armies but scouting tech plz no! What tech does either terran or protoss have that zerg doesn't know about, and wouldn't know without an ordinary overseer, before a zerg gets a lair, makes an overseer and then upgrades overlord speed?
I agree for terran. Terran is so predictable because of their limited options that the only thing you really need to scout for is a proxy 2rax. Against Protoss I find this change very questionable, because it is important to know the techswitch timings between templar, colossus and air. But I see, that Protoss has free scout with the hallucination, so maybe it´s just fair now.
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On August 29 2013 18:25 VieuxSinge wrote:Just watch flash's stream, even though he has 71% win ratio against Korean zerg in proleague, he gets demolished by some IIIIIIIIII zerg five or six times : http://www.twitch.tv/ktrolsterflash/b/453050408edit : and every time it's a big macro game with zerg having 5 bases edit2 : not saying the match-up is imbalanced, just saying zerg clearly has the tools needed to take out a terran on macro game
Interesting! What did the Zerg do? I don't have quite the time to watch the VODs, if you could be so dear as to summarize what the Zerg did you'd be really a sweet little candy. For me and others. ^^
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United States15275 Posts
On August 29 2013 18:25 VieuxSinge wrote:Just watch flash's stream, even though he has 71% win ratio against Korean zerg in proleague, he gets demolished by some IIIIIIIIII zerg five or six times : http://www.twitch.tv/ktrolsterflash/b/453050408edit : and every time it's a big macro game with zerg having 5 bases edit2 : not saying the match-up is imbalanced, just saying zerg clearly has the tools needed to take out a terran on macro game
Then Flash was doing it wrong. TvZ is only "imbalanced" going up to a certain point in the game, the period between hive tech and the saturation of the fourth base. If Flash was allowing the zerg to get 5 bases without doing the parade push then he would be in trouble anyway.
However if the zerg was holding the parade push while getting upgrades at roughly the same time, that would be noteworthy and should be watched.
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Well, zergs just played standard and defended very well without losing chunks of their army to widow mines. Flash was playing his usual "one big push" style but it didn't work.
I honnestly don't know if the overseer speed buff is the reason but the zergs had the upgrade every game
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On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
By the time overseers (with speed) are out, scouting intel is not of as much importance as when we're still stuck on overlords.
On top of that, on 4p maps zergs have a hard time scouting, when they misrallied both overlords (You have to guess and hope for the best, when rallying overlords on 4p maps), a problem terran and protoss do not share.
Good luck finding out what a protoss (or terran) is up to, without them exposing stuff at the wall and without overlords in place.
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On August 29 2013 18:23 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:On August 29 2013 18:00 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote:
If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate.... If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base). IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ. Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine. And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways... There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
well, apart that from that it's still not possible to contaminate 8production facilities with 4overseers...
It's one thing to say Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize or defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. If I drop your main army down to zero and don't lose a lot in the process you are NOT going to stabilize ever.
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On August 29 2013 19:02 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base.. Well to be fair Protoss do have an invisible flying scout which moves pretty fast with observer speed and zerg oftentimes has less anti air than toss/terran. and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
Forget observers... hallucinated phoenix? I'd trade a fast hallucinated flying unit for scan any day.
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On August 29 2013 19:02 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base.. Well to be fair Protoss do have an invisible flying scout which moves pretty fast with observer speed and zerg oftentimes has less anti air than toss/terran. and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
That costs 300 minerals and last for a few seconds
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This things are so-fucking-fast.
jesus.
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EPT
