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I have one thing to say about these changes, should they go through as they are now....
OPPAN PATCHZERG STYLE!!!
I do not want to see a repeat of Wings of Liberty, a game which was broken by a mere +2 attack range buff to Queens. I feel like buffing Vipers so they have full Energy upon creation would be too drastic a buff for the Zerg and would outright break Zerg vs Terran. Ten to twelve minute Hives would suddenly become the norm and Vipers would simply be too stronk.
Consider this for a second. If you spent 600 Minerals and 1200 Gas on making six Vipers at once, that's twelve Abducts or twelve Blinding Clouds immediately available to you upon your hatcheries shitting these units out. While before you'd have to Consume buildings in order to get the energy to even cast one of these things, now you'd have two immediately available to you.
This would make Zerg so overpowered in ZvT (Not ZvP because at least High Templar are viable casters vs nearly all units unlike Ghosts which are merely anti-Protoss and anti-caster units)... You can merely go Roach Hydra Viper, throw down Blinding Clouds defensively if a bio force does try to close in for the kill or offensively on Widow Mines to negate the range of their detonations and merely Abduct Medivacs, whittle them down and crush the army with a Roach Hydra force on an attack-move command. Or if you REALLY want to get technical, you COULD do that with Ling Bane Hydra or Ling Bane Muta if you really wanted....
I can only hope these changes get rigorously tested and David Kim realizes it's a stupid idea. Mech (particularly Hellbats which aren't functioning as the Mech meatshields they were promised to be and Siege Tanks which are straight-up unviable in TvZ and TvP) needs a significant buff. I can suggest a set of patch notes that would make David Kim's look dumb...
- Siege Tanks now deal 35 (60 vs Armored, 70 vs Massive) damage, up from 35 (50 vs Armored.) Here's a fact for you, Siege Tanks deal half the damage they did in Brood War against Archons and Archons are by far the second tankiest unit in the game against them. Also, it makes no sense they've received a hefty damage nerf against Ultralisks when they have 100 more HP as of SC2, and David Kim even considered giving them Charge of all abilities.
- Siege Tanks now cost 150 Minerals and 100 Gas, down from 150 Minerals and 125 Gas. (Their initial Brood War cost)
- Siege Tanks now cost 2 supply, down from 3. This is something KTFlash suggested in his interview with SOTG.
- Hellbats now deal 12 damage, down from 18.
- Infernal Pre-Igniter now adds 8 Light damage to the attack of Hellbats, down from 12. Both of these are to not make the Hellbat too overpowered damage wise.
- Hellbats now have 195 health, up from 135. It's kinda embarassing that a Marauder is tankier than a Hellbat because it may have 10 less HP but it has 1 baseline Armor.
- Hellbats now start with 1 Armor, up from 0. Tankability improvement.
- In addition to its current effects, Infernal Pre-Igniter also adds 2 Armor to Hellbats. This should give Hellbats the ability to go 5-3 Armor upgrades just like Ultralisks can.
- Widow Mines now deal 25 (+25 to Shields) Splash damage, down from 40. This will fix the problem of entire waves of lings and banes being completely obliterated by one mere micro mistake while still giving the Widow Mine viability in TvP or against a single target.
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On August 13 2013 23:12 Clbull wrote:
I have one thing to say about these changes, should they go through as they are now....
OPPAN PATCHZERG STYLE!!!
I do not want to see a repeat of Wings of Liberty, a game which was broken by a mere +2 attack range buff to Queens. I feel like buffing Vipers so they have full Energy upon creation would be too drastic a buff for the Zerg and would outright break Zerg vs Terran. Ten to twelve minute Hives would suddenly become the norm and Vipers would simply be too stronk.
Consider this for a second. If you spent 600 Minerals and 1200 Gas on making six Vipers at once, that's twelve Abducts or twelve Blinding Clouds immediately available to you upon your hatcheries shitting these units out. While before you'd have to Consume buildings in order to get the energy to even cast one of these things, now you'd have two immediately available to you.
This would make Zerg so overpowered in ZvT (Not ZvP because at least High Templar are viable casters vs nearly all units unlike Ghosts which are merely anti-Protoss and anti-caster units)... You can merely go Roach Hydra Viper, throw down Blinding Clouds defensively if a bio force does try to close in for the kill or offensively on Widow Mines to negate the range of their detonations and merely Abduct Medivacs, whittle them down and crush the army with a Roach Hydra force on an attack-move command. Or if you REALLY want to get technical, you COULD do that with Ling Bane Hydra or Ling Bane Muta if you really wanted....
I can only hope these changes get rigorously tested and David Kim realizes it's a stupid idea.
a bit wrong. feedback range is smaller then abduct i believe. so unless your HT are in the frontline your archons, immortals and collosi will still get abducted. and even though they want to buff mech, this viper buff will ruin mech even more. i didn't know at first why everybody hated david kim but i am starting to understand now, david kim is a moron when it comes to balancing.
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On August 13 2013 23:12 Clbull wrote:
I have one thing to say about these changes, should they go through as they are now....
OPPAN PATCHZERG STYLE!!!
I do not want to see a repeat of Wings of Liberty, a game which was broken by a mere +2 attack range buff to Queens. I feel like buffing Vipers so they have full Energy upon creation would be too drastic a buff for the Zerg and would outright break Zerg vs Terran. Ten to twelve minute Hives would suddenly become the norm and Vipers would simply be too stronk.
Consider this for a second. If you spent 600 Minerals and 1200 Gas on making six Vipers at once, that's twelve Abducts or twelve Blinding Clouds immediately available to you upon your hatcheries shitting these units out. While before you'd have to Consume buildings in order to get the energy to even cast one of these things, now you'd have two immediately available to you.
This would make Zerg so overpowered in ZvT (Not ZvP because at least High Templar are viable casters vs nearly all units unlike Ghosts which are merely anti-Protoss and anti-caster units)... You can merely go Roach Hydra Viper, throw down Blinding Clouds defensively if a bio force does try to close in for the kill or offensively on Widow Mines to negate the range of their detonations and merely Abduct Medivacs, whittle them down and crush the army with a Roach Hydra force on an attack-move command. Or if you REALLY want to get technical, you COULD do that with Ling Bane Hydra or Ling Bane Muta if you really wanted....
I can only hope these changes get rigorously tested and David Kim realizes it's a stupid idea.
I was right, when I said that the queen range patch will break TvZ. I was kinda right, when I said, that Hellbat nerf will break TvP. (It's not that bad right now, but I'm sure it will get worse for terran with every week). I'm not so convinced, that this Viper Buff would break any matchup. This time, I really would give it a try.
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On August 13 2013 23:14 SCguineapig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:12 Clbull wrote:
I have one thing to say about these changes, should they go through as they are now....
OPPAN PATCHZERG STYLE!!!
I do not want to see a repeat of Wings of Liberty, a game which was broken by a mere +2 attack range buff to Queens. I feel like buffing Vipers so they have full Energy upon creation would be too drastic a buff for the Zerg and would outright break Zerg vs Terran. Ten to twelve minute Hives would suddenly become the norm and Vipers would simply be too stronk.
Consider this for a second. If you spent 600 Minerals and 1200 Gas on making six Vipers at once, that's twelve Abducts or twelve Blinding Clouds immediately available to you upon your hatcheries shitting these units out. While before you'd have to Consume buildings in order to get the energy to even cast one of these things, now you'd have two immediately available to you.
This would make Zerg so overpowered in ZvT (Not ZvP because at least High Templar are viable casters vs nearly all units unlike Ghosts which are merely anti-Protoss and anti-caster units)... You can merely go Roach Hydra Viper, throw down Blinding Clouds defensively if a bio force does try to close in for the kill or offensively on Widow Mines to negate the range of their detonations and merely Abduct Medivacs, whittle them down and crush the army with a Roach Hydra force on an attack-move command. Or if you REALLY want to get technical, you COULD do that with Ling Bane Hydra or Ling Bane Muta if you really wanted....
I can only hope these changes get rigorously tested and David Kim realizes it's a stupid idea. a bit wrong. feedback range is smaller then abduct i believe. so unless your HT are in the frontline your archons, immortals and collosi will still get abducted. and even though they want to buff mech, this viper buff will ruin mech even more. i didn't know at first why everybody hated david kim but i am starting to understand now, david kim is a moron when it comes to balancing.
Abduct and Feedback have the same range, 9.
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the wording sounds like they're playing with the idea of changing the viper spells so maybe this is a last try to see if the current ones are actually useful with overtuned full energy spawning, imo this change wont go through and they're planning on adjusting the actual skills of the viper in the end
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I dont mind the viper buff as long as there is a risk added. You can have a full energy viper, but bad control should be punished. If everything in mech and vikings just did more flat out damage, you make the viper a gamble. If you control it well, great. If it takes like 3 viking shots,you're screwed. Buffing mech base damage might also make mech vs protoss more viable
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Can someone explain me why I get a warning for balance whine when the post is full of that and no warnings? O_o
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Austria24422 Posts
Actually vipers starting with full energy is extremely dangerous for protoss. It's not that you can't counter vipers with HTs, you can. But there's two really strong timings in roach/hydra/viper timings against colossus players and the ultra/viper/queen/hydra timing that are really really strong. The key to defending them as protoss is keeping zerg away from building a bank (through harassment) while building a strong army to defend. The key resource for protoss here is time. You want to stall as long as possible because your army gets stronger with every bit of gas you mine. HT/colossus is an insanely gas heavy army that you can't easily or quickly rebuild. That's why you need to keep the zerg's economy down. Against ultra/viper/queen you want to do the same thing. You need a HT/mass immortal/archon army. That takes LONG and is expensive as hell. The key resource again is time - the time it takes to mass immortals.
Now imagine both those timings with Vipers ready to abduct two colossi or blinding cloud your army twice per viper immediately upon spawning. It'd basically be feedback every viper before the fight or lose.
It's just another change that's not necessary. Yes zerg is having trouble with the same 3 base timings that killed them in WoL. Do I think that making vipers be useful earlier is the answer? No I don't
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On August 13 2013 23:23 lorestarcraft wrote:
No Protoss changes...
I would say that, apart from the ability to hold multi-pronged Stimivac drops, Protoss is perfectly fine as it is.
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On August 13 2013 23:22 tyranolol wrote:
Can someone explain me why I get a warning for balance whine when the post is full of that and no warnings? O_o
Ask that at website feedback forum or pm the mod. Best not post that here.
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On August 13 2013 23:12 Clbull wrote:I have one thing to say about these changes, should they go through as they are now.... OPPAN PATCHZERG STYLE!!!I do not want to see a repeat of Wings of Liberty, a game which was broken by a mere +2 attack range buff to Queens. I feel like buffing Vipers so they have full Energy upon creation would be too drastic a buff for the Zerg and would outright break Zerg vs Terran. Ten to twelve minute Hives would suddenly become the norm and Vipers would simply be too stronk. Consider this for a second. If you spent 600 Minerals and 1200 Gas on making six Vipers at once, that's twelve Abducts or twelve Blinding Clouds immediately available to you upon your hatcheries shitting these units out. While before you'd have to Consume buildings in order to get the energy to even cast one of these things, now you'd have two immediately available to you. This would make Zerg so overpowered in ZvT (Not ZvP because at least High Templar are viable casters vs nearly all units unlike Ghosts which are merely anti-Protoss and anti-caster units)... You can merely go Roach Hydra Viper, throw down Blinding Clouds defensively if a bio force does try to close in for the kill or offensively on Widow Mines to negate the range of their detonations and merely Abduct Medivacs, whittle them down and crush the army with a Roach Hydra force on an attack-move command. Or if you REALLY want to get technical, you COULD do that with Ling Bane Hydra or Ling Bane Muta if you really wanted.... I can only hope these changes get rigorously tested and David Kim realizes it's a stupid idea. Mech (particularly Hellbats which aren't functioning as the Mech meatshields they were promised to be and Siege Tanks which are straight-up unviable in TvZ and TvP) needs a significant buff. I can suggest a set of patch notes that would make David Kim's look dumb... - Siege Tanks now deal 35 (60 vs Armored, 70 vs Massive) damage, up from 35 (50 vs Armored.) Here's a fact for you, Siege Tanks deal half the damage they did in Brood War against Archons and Archons are by far the second tankiest unit in the game against them. Also, it makes no sense they've received a hefty damage nerf against Ultralisks when they have 100 more HP as of SC2, and David Kim even considered giving them Charge of all abilities.
- Siege Tanks now cost 150 Minerals and 100 Gas, down from 150 Minerals and 125 Gas. (Their initial Brood War cost)
- Siege Tanks now cost 2 supply, down from 3. This is something KTFlash suggested in his interview with SOTG.
- Hellbats now deal 12 damage, down from 18.
- Infernal Pre-Igniter now adds 8 Light damage to the attack of Hellbats, down from 12. Both of these are to not make the Hellbat too overpowered damage wise.
- Hellbats now have 195 health, up from 135. It's kinda embarassing that a Marauder is tankier than a Hellbat because it may have 10 less HP but it has 1 baseline Armor.
- Hellbats now start with 1 Armor, up from 0. Tankability improvement.
- In addition to its current effects, Infernal Pre-Igniter also adds 2 Armor to Hellbats. This should give Hellbats the ability to go 5-3 Armor upgrades just like Ultralisks can.
- Widow Mines now deal 25 (+25 to Shields) Splash damage, down from 40. This will fix the problem of entire waves of lings and banes being completely obliterated by one mere micro mistake while still giving the Widow Mine viability in TvP or against a single target.
So you will make for 100 mineras on the hellbat a beast of 5 armor and 195 hps... just nice changes Kappa Hellbat is enough tanky, has aoe damage and can be healed by the medivacs you want more for 100 minerals? seriously?
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On August 13 2013 23:22 tyranolol wrote:
Can someone explain me why I get a warning for balance whine when the post is full of that and no warnings? O_o
I think it's because of your "Kappa".
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Protoss right now is just a powerhouse Insane Defense early - mid game (MSC) / good offense with Deathball army..........
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On August 13 2013 23:23 lorestarcraft wrote:
No Protoss changes...
Protoss currently has the highest winrate of any race on the pro level. Most of the players who have qualified for the WCS Final are Protoss. The race is not underpowered in any way. Moreover, PvP has become a really good matchup for the first time in SC2 history--it rewards skill but allows for comebacks, and many different styles and builds are viable. Also, even in the other matchups, for the first time in a while most of the most successful Protoss pro's aren't playing all-in/timing push oriented styles, nor turtle into deathball styles, but rather macro-oriented styles that incorporate harass and multitask throughout the game (see: Rain, First, sOs, and pretty much every other good Korean Toss except for PartinG and StarDust). In other words, Protoss is in a good place right now, and there's no compelling reason to mess with that.
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2. Combine mech ground and air upgrades
We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
I wish they would go in to a bit more detail like what exactly do they think is the problem, how are the changes going to help etc. They always seem to be so vague when it comes to mech.
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On August 13 2013 23:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +
2. Combine mech ground and air upgrades
We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
I wish they would go in to a bit more detail like what exactly do they think is the problem, how are the changes going to help etc. They always seem to be so vague when it comes to mech.
I think there was a clarification further down. It was so that the upgrades would benefit both Vikings and Hellbats.
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On August 13 2013 23:33 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
2. Combine mech ground and air upgrades
We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
I wish they would go in to a bit more detail like what exactly do they think is the problem, how are the changes going to help etc. They always seem to be so vague when it comes to mech. I think there was a clarification further down. It was so that the upgrades would benefit both Vikings and Hellbats.
I think that is for bio play in TvP though.
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On August 13 2013 22:06 Everlong wrote:
I don't understeand how people can argument with "all 3 races have the same number of upgrades"? Since you have 3 completely different races, why on earth would you go for such comparsion? Should I be mad I'm not able to build 50 units almost instantly as a Terran player?
Sure, that's not what I meant. I don't want to compare them this way (I agree it is stupid because the interest of the game is having asymmetrically designed races). Those upgrades are already arranged differently for each race anyway. I just don't like the idea of having less and less upgrades. I'm not at all against giving mech a boost.
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On August 13 2013 23:19 Tsubbi wrote:
the wording sounds like they're playing with the idea of changing the viper spells so maybe this is a last try to see if the current ones are actually useful with overtuned full energy spawning, imo this change wont go through and they're planning on adjusting the actual skills of the viper in the end
I don't think they wanna change the spells. Just maybe the energy costs of these spells. I'd prefer a change of the abilities, but Blizzard won't do it before LotV, imo.
But my thoughts on the Viper buff in ZvT:
Can't "Blinding Cloud" be used to slow the Bio attack down? Throw the Blinding Cloud on a choke point and the Terran has to move through (-> Away from the mines) it or they won't be able to attack the Hatch or the units. I don't really know if it actually works this way, but if you could really slow down the push with a few blinding clouds, I really see this Viper buff fixin the peoblems there, because time is all the Zerg really needs - and right now they don't get the time :-P
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EPT
