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On August 13 2013 22:46 Big-t wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:38 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 22:34 Big-t wrote:On August 13 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 22:31 Big-t wrote:On August 13 2013 22:21 Estancia wrote:
I think the viper buff will force terran players to bring around bunch of vikings around so that their seige line won't get clouded.. And thats huge chunk of Supply wasted.
As a protoss player Zerg viper timing will be really scary now. I'll probably end up going storm first for every single game. Yep and the Z doesn´t really care if his vipers die when they get their clouds down. 3-4 vipers for a mech ball? Every day... Well you would likely want to put the vipers infront of the mech ball to zone them out, like terrans do against colossi. Sure but then u can abducted them into your army... Do you really think they are going to abduct every single one of your viking? Vipers are 200 gas a pop and they can only get about 2 abducts per viper. Also, they have the same range, so the instant they abduct, all the vikings also fire on the viper doing that abducting. That doesn't sound like a winning plan. I know that´s all theory, in this situation the micro comes into play. But if the zerg wants to poke and the T is not looking at his main army, he could sent a few ovis in front to tank the auto fire. Then Vipers cast BC and the mech ball is gone. Well I guess what I want to say is with vipers on the field the T has to pay a lot more attention to his main army, otherwise Z wins easily.
Controlling you army is part of the game and they can’t really balance the game for the times when you are not looking at your army. The Viking has a very real ability to zone out vipers and upgrades make them event better. Unless zerg is upgrading air units, vipers should have only 1 armor vs the 10x2(+1) base damage of a Viking. With 150 HP, and Vikings doing 12x2 damage with +2 upgrades, it only takes 7 Vikings to one shot a viper. That means that zerg could lose a viper every time they wander into range of even a small number of Vikings, which isn’t bad since Vipers costs 100/200, or the price of two high templars.
From what people are saying, they may not be a good defense against a timing attack, but as the game goes on, it looks like a small number of Vikings could zone out vipers.
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On August 13 2013 23:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +
2. Combine mech ground and air upgrades
We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
I wish they would go in to a bit more detail like what exactly do they think is the problem, how are the changes going to help etc. They always seem to be so vague when it comes to mech.
Vague sentences are always better to conceal ignorance.
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On August 13 2013 23:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:33 Clbull wrote:On August 13 2013 23:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
2. Combine mech ground and air upgrades
We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
I wish they would go in to a bit more detail like what exactly do they think is the problem, how are the changes going to help etc. They always seem to be so vague when it comes to mech. I think there was a clarification further down. It was so that the upgrades would benefit both Vikings and Hellbats. I think that is for bio play in TvP though.
Getting the right mix of spread out Tanks and air support is very important in TvZ vs Viper play, and by combining their upgrades, it makes it significantly easier to ensure a cost effective mix of air and ground. And since there aren't any TvZ mech pushes that hit before Vipers consume their way to full energy anyway, the Viper buff won't effect TvZ much at all.
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On August 13 2013 23:38 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 13 2013 23:33 Clbull wrote:On August 13 2013 23:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
2. Combine mech ground and air upgrades
We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
I wish they would go in to a bit more detail like what exactly do they think is the problem, how are the changes going to help etc. They always seem to be so vague when it comes to mech. I think there was a clarification further down. It was so that the upgrades would benefit both Vikings and Hellbats. I think that is for bio play in TvP though. Getting the right mix of spread out Tanks and air support is very important in TvZ vs Viper play, and by combining their upgrades, it makes it significantly easier to ensure a cost effective mix of air and ground. And since there aren't any TvZ mech pushes that hit before Vipers consume their way to full energy anyway, the Viper buff won't effect TvZ much at all.
20 seconds can be the difference between killing a fourth and perhaps even leaving, and losing your whole army to a stupid spell.
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On August 13 2013 23:37 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:19 Tsubbi wrote:
the wording sounds like they're playing with the idea of changing the viper spells so maybe this is a last try to see if the current ones are actually useful with overtuned full energy spawning, imo this change wont go through and they're planning on adjusting the actual skills of the viper in the end I don't think they wanna change the spells. Just maybe the energy costs of these spells. I'd prefer a change of the abilities, but Blizzard won't do it before LotV, imo. But my thoughts on the Viper buff in ZvT: Can't "Blinding Cloud" be used to slow the Bio attack down? Throw the Blinding Cloud on a choke point and the Terran has to move through (-> Away from the mines) it or they won't be able to attack the Hatch or the units. I don't really know if it actually works this way, but if you could really slow down the push with a few blinding clouds, I really see this Viper buff fixin the peoblems there, because time is all the Zerg really needs - and right now they don't get the time :-P
That makes it overlap with the infestor too much.
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On August 13 2013 23:40 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:38 awesomoecalypse wrote:On August 13 2013 23:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 13 2013 23:33 Clbull wrote:On August 13 2013 23:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
2. Combine mech ground and air upgrades
We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
I wish they would go in to a bit more detail like what exactly do they think is the problem, how are the changes going to help etc. They always seem to be so vague when it comes to mech. I think there was a clarification further down. It was so that the upgrades would benefit both Vikings and Hellbats. I think that is for bio play in TvP though. Getting the right mix of spread out Tanks and air support is very important in TvZ vs Viper play, and by combining their upgrades, it makes it significantly easier to ensure a cost effective mix of air and ground. And since there aren't any TvZ mech pushes that hit before Vipers consume their way to full energy anyway, the Viper buff won't effect TvZ much at all. 20 seconds can be the difference between killing a fourth and perhaps even leaving, and losing your whole army to a stupid spell.
Theoretically, sure. But in practice, I'm not aware of any major TvZ mech builds designed to hit in the narrow window when Vipers are out but before they have energy. I'm sure there's some game where its happened, but it's not a core strategy by any means, which means this is not going to meaninfully alter the TvZ metagame.
PvZ is different, because "hit with Colossi before Vipers can get energy for Abduct" actually is a pretty popular pro level strat, so this will likely remove that from the metagame and further incentivize Templar play.
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I just bought hots so pardon the question, but can widowmines fire if under blinding cloud? Because if they cant then maybe this viper buff could see some use afterall to blind clumps of mines and get an engage.
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On August 13 2013 23:12 Clbull wrote:I have one thing to say about these changes, should they go through as they are now.... OPPAN PATCHZERG STYLE!!!I do not want to see a repeat of Wings of Liberty, a game which was broken by a mere +2 attack range buff to Queens. I feel like buffing Vipers so they have full Energy upon creation would be too drastic a buff for the Zerg and would outright break Zerg vs Terran. Ten to twelve minute Hives would suddenly become the norm and Vipers would simply be too stronk. Consider this for a second. If you spent 600 Minerals and 1200 Gas on making six Vipers at once, that's twelve Abducts or twelve Blinding Clouds immediately available to you upon your hatcheries shitting these units out. While before you'd have to Consume buildings in order to get the energy to even cast one of these things, now you'd have two immediately available to you. This would make Zerg so overpowered in ZvT (Not ZvP because at least High Templar are viable casters vs nearly all units unlike Ghosts which are merely anti-Protoss and anti-caster units)... You can merely go Roach Hydra Viper, throw down Blinding Clouds defensively if a bio force does try to close in for the kill or offensively on Widow Mines to negate the range of their detonations and merely Abduct Medivacs, whittle them down and crush the army with a Roach Hydra force on an attack-move command. Or if you REALLY want to get technical, you COULD do that with Ling Bane Hydra or Ling Bane Muta if you really wanted.... I can only hope these changes get rigorously tested and David Kim realizes it's a stupid idea. Mech (particularly Hellbats which aren't functioning as the Mech meatshields they were promised to be and Siege Tanks which are straight-up unviable in TvZ and TvP) needs a significant buff. I can suggest a set of patch notes that would make David Kim's look dumb... - Siege Tanks now deal 35 (60 vs Armored, 70 vs Massive) damage, up from 35 (50 vs Armored.) Here's a fact for you, Siege Tanks deal half the damage they did in Brood War against Archons and Archons are by far the second tankiest unit in the game against them. Also, it makes no sense they've received a hefty damage nerf against Ultralisks when they have 100 more HP as of SC2, and David Kim even considered giving them Charge of all abilities.
- Siege Tanks now cost 150 Minerals and 100 Gas, down from 150 Minerals and 125 Gas. (Their initial Brood War cost)
- Siege Tanks now cost 2 supply, down from 3. This is something KTFlash suggested in his interview with SOTG.
- Hellbats now deal 12 damage, down from 18.
- Infernal Pre-Igniter now adds 8 Light damage to the attack of Hellbats, down from 12. Both of these are to not make the Hellbat too overpowered damage wise.
- Hellbats now have 195 health, up from 135. It's kinda embarassing that a Marauder is tankier than a Hellbat because it may have 10 less HP but it has 1 baseline Armor.
- Hellbats now start with 1 Armor, up from 0. Tankability improvement.
- In addition to its current effects, Infernal Pre-Igniter also adds 2 Armor to Hellbats. This should give Hellbats the ability to go 5-3 Armor upgrades just like Ultralisks can.
- Widow Mines now deal 25 (+25 to Shields) Splash damage, down from 40. This will fix the problem of entire waves of lings and banes being completely obliterated by one mere micro mistake while still giving the Widow Mine viability in TvP or against a single target.
The abilities of the Viper are best used against big/ expensive units (abduct) and against slow/ immobile units (blinding cloud). MMMM Terrans are least effected by this change imo yet you say they're the most effected? Not saying I'd agree with the buff btw.
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On August 13 2013 23:42 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:37 Swisslink wrote:On August 13 2013 23:19 Tsubbi wrote:
the wording sounds like they're playing with the idea of changing the viper spells so maybe this is a last try to see if the current ones are actually useful with overtuned full energy spawning, imo this change wont go through and they're planning on adjusting the actual skills of the viper in the end I don't think they wanna change the spells. Just maybe the energy costs of these spells. I'd prefer a change of the abilities, but Blizzard won't do it before LotV, imo. But my thoughts on the Viper buff in ZvT: Can't "Blinding Cloud" be used to slow the Bio attack down? Throw the Blinding Cloud on a choke point and the Terran has to move through (-> Away from the mines) it or they won't be able to attack the Hatch or the units. I don't really know if it actually works this way, but if you could really slow down the push with a few blinding clouds, I really see this Viper buff fixin the peoblems there, because time is all the Zerg really needs - and right now they don't get the time :-P That makes it overlap with the infestor too much.
True, but:
- They hatch 10 sec faster
- They'll hatch with full energy
- They're available without a Tech building
- They require no upgrade.
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On August 13 2013 23:45 Sajaki wrote:
I just bought hots so pardon the question, but can widowmines fire if under blinding cloud? Because if they cant then maybe this viper buff could see some use afterall to blind clumps of mines and get an engage.
Blinding Cloud does not affect abilities and therefore mines still shoot while under a blinding cloud.
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On August 13 2013 23:38 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 13 2013 23:33 Clbull wrote:On August 13 2013 23:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
2. Combine mech ground and air upgrades
We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
I wish they would go in to a bit more detail like what exactly do they think is the problem, how are the changes going to help etc. They always seem to be so vague when it comes to mech. I think there was a clarification further down. It was so that the upgrades would benefit both Vikings and Hellbats. I think that is for bio play in TvP though. Getting the right mix of spread out Tanks and air support is very important in TvZ vs Viper play, and by combining their upgrades, it makes it significantly easier to ensure a cost effective mix of air and ground. And since there aren't any TvZ mech pushes that hit before Vipers consume their way to full energy anyway, the Viper buff won't effect TvZ much at all.
Be that as it may, why not say so in the post (by David Kim) instead of the elusive "we know how much better mech will be..." They give details on everything else but mech related stuff.
On August 13 2013 23:38 TheDwf wrote:
Vague sentences are always better to conceal ignorance.
Ignorance or a lack of interest maybe. Annoying none the less
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On August 13 2013 23:45 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:12 Clbull wrote:I have one thing to say about these changes, should they go through as they are now.... OPPAN PATCHZERG STYLE!!!I do not want to see a repeat of Wings of Liberty, a game which was broken by a mere +2 attack range buff to Queens. I feel like buffing Vipers so they have full Energy upon creation would be too drastic a buff for the Zerg and would outright break Zerg vs Terran. Ten to twelve minute Hives would suddenly become the norm and Vipers would simply be too stronk. Consider this for a second. If you spent 600 Minerals and 1200 Gas on making six Vipers at once, that's twelve Abducts or twelve Blinding Clouds immediately available to you upon your hatcheries shitting these units out. While before you'd have to Consume buildings in order to get the energy to even cast one of these things, now you'd have two immediately available to you. This would make Zerg so overpowered in ZvT (Not ZvP because at least High Templar are viable casters vs nearly all units unlike Ghosts which are merely anti-Protoss and anti-caster units)... You can merely go Roach Hydra Viper, throw down Blinding Clouds defensively if a bio force does try to close in for the kill or offensively on Widow Mines to negate the range of their detonations and merely Abduct Medivacs, whittle them down and crush the army with a Roach Hydra force on an attack-move command. Or if you REALLY want to get technical, you COULD do that with Ling Bane Hydra or Ling Bane Muta if you really wanted.... I can only hope these changes get rigorously tested and David Kim realizes it's a stupid idea. Mech (particularly Hellbats which aren't functioning as the Mech meatshields they were promised to be and Siege Tanks which are straight-up unviable in TvZ and TvP) needs a significant buff. I can suggest a set of patch notes that would make David Kim's look dumb... - Siege Tanks now deal 35 (60 vs Armored, 70 vs Massive) damage, up from 35 (50 vs Armored.) Here's a fact for you, Siege Tanks deal half the damage they did in Brood War against Archons and Archons are by far the second tankiest unit in the game against them. Also, it makes no sense they've received a hefty damage nerf against Ultralisks when they have 100 more HP as of SC2, and David Kim even considered giving them Charge of all abilities.
- Siege Tanks now cost 150 Minerals and 100 Gas, down from 150 Minerals and 125 Gas. (Their initial Brood War cost)
- Siege Tanks now cost 2 supply, down from 3. This is something KTFlash suggested in his interview with SOTG.
- Hellbats now deal 12 damage, down from 18.
- Infernal Pre-Igniter now adds 8 Light damage to the attack of Hellbats, down from 12. Both of these are to not make the Hellbat too overpowered damage wise.
- Hellbats now have 195 health, up from 135. It's kinda embarassing that a Marauder is tankier than a Hellbat because it may have 10 less HP but it has 1 baseline Armor.
- Hellbats now start with 1 Armor, up from 0. Tankability improvement.
- In addition to its current effects, Infernal Pre-Igniter also adds 2 Armor to Hellbats. This should give Hellbats the ability to go 5-3 Armor upgrades just like Ultralisks can.
- Widow Mines now deal 25 (+25 to Shields) Splash damage, down from 40. This will fix the problem of entire waves of lings and banes being completely obliterated by one mere micro mistake while still giving the Widow Mine viability in TvP or against a single target.
The abilities of the Viper are best used against big/ expensive units (abduct) and against slow/ immobile units (blinding cloud). MMMM Terrans are least effected by this change imo yet you say they're the most effected? Not saying I'd agree with the buff btw.
A lot of the strength surrounding MMMM is the healing of medivacs. If you need to stim in order to get the damage out and Medivacs can't heal because they've been Abducted and sniped quickly, then you can't really do anything.
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On August 13 2013 23:46 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On August 13 2013 23:37 Swisslink wrote:On August 13 2013 23:19 Tsubbi wrote:
the wording sounds like they're playing with the idea of changing the viper spells so maybe this is a last try to see if the current ones are actually useful with overtuned full energy spawning, imo this change wont go through and they're planning on adjusting the actual skills of the viper in the end I don't think they wanna change the spells. Just maybe the energy costs of these spells. I'd prefer a change of the abilities, but Blizzard won't do it before LotV, imo. But my thoughts on the Viper buff in ZvT: Can't "Blinding Cloud" be used to slow the Bio attack down? Throw the Blinding Cloud on a choke point and the Terran has to move through (-> Away from the mines) it or they won't be able to attack the Hatch or the units. I don't really know if it actually works this way, but if you could really slow down the push with a few blinding clouds, I really see this Viper buff fixin the peoblems there, because time is all the Zerg really needs - and right now they don't get the time :-P That makes it overlap with the infestor too much. True, but: - They hatch 10 sec faster - They'll hatch with full energy - They're available without a Tech building - They require no upgrade.
1.) vipers still need a hive, so technically they require an infestation pit as well.
2.) I highly doubt the balance change suggested will go through. Zerg changes on balance maps especially, have a mixed record of making the final cut.
3.) even if the balance change goes through, it still doesn't change that your suggestion is too similar to fungal growth(which is a better spell in general anyways).
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Mech won´t became popular in T v Z so this means that vipers still won´t be used versus terran if you aren´t waaaay ahead. Why would you get them v 4M instead of ultras or infestors??
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So Innovation has 80% pvt in HOTS and they still want to buff TvP in terran's favour. Hm....
TvP is almost 50% in Korean scene(proleague, GSL, OSL premier, GSTL) and it tips to T's favour as you go higher, as proven with 2 TvP finals where P got crushed completely.
Best PvTer Rain had something like 60% winrate in HOTS vs terran.
This patch will make more terran appearance in north america/europe WCS, and probably good distribution of race in korea upto ro16 or so, but in the end by ro8 or 4 terran will always trump protoss with the patch.
It's damn reckless. Protoss hasn't won single Korean tourney since HOTS launch. WTH, Blizzard?
So with this in racial balance will look good on surface, but terran will win all the time vs toss in higher rounds.
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On August 14 2013 00:01 highsis wrote:
So Innovation has 80% pvt in HOTS and they still want to buff TvP in terran's favour. Hm....
TvP is almost 50% in Korean scene(high round-proleague, GSL, OSL premier, GSTL) and it tips to T's favour as you go higher, as proven with 2 TvP finals where P got crushed completely.
Best PvTer Rain had something like 60% winrate in HOTS vs terran.
This patch will make more terran appearance in north america/europe WCS, and probably good distribution of race in korea upto ro16 or so, but in the end by ro8 or 4 terran will always trump protoss with the patch.
It's damn reckless. Protoss hasn't won single Korean tourney since HOTS launch. WTH, Blizzard?
So with this in racial balance will look good on surface, but terran will win all the time vs toss in higher rounds.
Blame Rain for choking.
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On August 13 2013 20:45 PopoChampion wrote:
Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled.
I'll second this.
One thing to add is: MMMM have range attack. That's why Terran splitting works. In contrast, lings & bane needs to stay together so they can reach enemy units to cause damage. Splitting them as a bait will get killed & failed immediately when Terran has 2-2 and a decent amount of army.
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On August 14 2013 00:02 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 00:01 highsis wrote:
So Innovation has 80% pvt in HOTS and they still want to buff TvP in terran's favour. Hm....
TvP is almost 50% in Korean scene(high round-proleague, GSL, OSL premier, GSTL) and it tips to T's favour as you go higher, as proven with 2 TvP finals where P got crushed completely.
Best PvTer Rain had something like 60% winrate in HOTS vs terran.
This patch will make more terran appearance in north america/europe WCS, and probably good distribution of race in korea upto ro16 or so, but in the end by ro8 or 4 terran will always trump protoss with the patch.
It's damn reckless. Protoss hasn't won single Korean tourney since HOTS launch. WTH, Blizzard?
So with this in racial balance will look good on surface, but terran will win all the time vs toss in higher rounds. Blame Rain for choking.
Also blame Stardust for not choking, oh wait, he plays Protoss
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How fix mech: Make 50 damage against all unit, but remain the splash damage as it is.
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Overseer buff will be great because most of the time the mutalisk will be dragging the muta flock down and this will increase the speed of the muta flock giving a greater ability to pick off mines before they go off.
vehicle and air upgrades combining is good. I think its only fair if protoss can have all of its units besides air units get the same upgrade.
I always didn't like how there were two separate upgrades for terran but not protoss. This would be like having Robo unit upgrades and air upgrades both be in the cybercore, while all gateways will use a forge.
I don't really like mech in the TvZ matchup because Vipers just hardcounter everything mech so whether it starts out with full energy or not im not going to make em. Or how bout they create an upgrade enabling full energy or start with 25 more energy. Just starting with full energy is stupid. they already have some way of gaining energy faster, while every other unit doesn't
If we are following this logic: Every caster starts with full energy and no upgrade!!!!! Auto 2 EMPs, Storm, Fungal, hunter seeker, 4 forcefields. oh man... Sign me up for the load of bull crap that would happen haha.
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EPT
