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On August 13 2013 22:02 eXdeath wrote:
1) yes
2) no, why not slightly cheaper? Right now all 3 races have the same number of upgrades right? It's fine this way. And 5 is not a lot already.
3) no
I don't understeand how people can argument with "all 3 races have the same number of upgrades"? Since you have 3 completely different races, why on earth would you go for such comparsion? Should I be mad I'm not able to build 50 units almost instantly as a Terran player?
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On August 13 2013 22:06 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:02 eXdeath wrote:
1) yes
2) no, why not slightly cheaper? Right now all 3 races have the same number of upgrades right? It's fine this way. And 5 is not a lot already.
3) no I don't understeand how people can argument with "all 3 races have the same number of upgrades"? Since you have 3 completely different races, why on earth would you go for such comparsion? Should I be mad I'm not able to build 50 units almost instantly as a Terran player?
People also seem to forget that Terran infrastructure is the most expensive and they also have the slowest production and transitions. I still don't know why the attack-merge was rolled back in the HOTS beta anyway, this change is great, it makes banshees viable as a fighting unit along with your mech army and ground Vikings won't be so damn horrible as well.
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mech is weak and now will be even more weak with instant energy vipers dumb change.....
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On August 13 2013 21:30 Grubby wrote:
Mech attack combine w/ air = going to have huge ramifications, too big probably. Why is mech unpopular vs Z? Swarm hosts. Fix swarm hosts instead. TvP every time you upgrade Vikings air attack against P, same happens for Hellbats. That's going to be real fun (even 0:0 hellbats pre-patch hellbats were a huge damage dealer to zealots, how are 2-0 hellbats going to be doing?)
Swarm hosts are a real PITA when playing mech, but definately not the only thing holding mech back.
There is obviously vipers. This change actually helps with it since vikings will have more attack. But vipers can really ruin your day as mech player.
Then we have the faster mutas. I feel one of the reasons to go 4M is that since you can constantly keep agression up you force the zerg to attack your bio with his mutas. When playing mech you cannot be that agressive, since one time being agressive while you don't have the superior army means your army is lost, there is no retreat for a mech army (well sometimes you can load up a few mech units in medivacs and gtfo, but not like 4M retreat options, and also not like their expandability).
So without that a large muta ball allows the zerg to freely take expansions, while you have to turtle. And in WoL it at least mattered if your thor got of a few shots, next time they would be weaker, but thats not the case in HotS.
And the new ultra also doesn't make it easier, with the speed it goes through the mech meatshield (hellbats).
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On August 13 2013 22:16 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:06 Everlong wrote:On August 13 2013 22:02 eXdeath wrote:
1) yes
2) no, why not slightly cheaper? Right now all 3 races have the same number of upgrades right? It's fine this way. And 5 is not a lot already.
3) no I don't understeand how people can argument with "all 3 races have the same number of upgrades"? Since you have 3 completely different races, why on earth would you go for such comparsion? Should I be mad I'm not able to build 50 units almost instantly as a Terran player? People also seem to forget that Terran infrastructure is the most expensive and they also have the slowest production and transitions. I still don't know why the attack-merge was rolled back in the HOTS beta anyway, this change is great, it makes banshees viable as a fighting unit along with your mech army and ground Vikings won't be so damn horrible as well.
Exactly, it is really hard to compete with Protoss and Zerg on upgrades going mech. You need production first, then you can get armories up. Because otherwise you lose to random allin. Protoss is extremly safe due to Planetary Nexus and Zerg is also very safe due to Planetary Queen. This snowballs to the point where you fight with 1-0, or 1-1 mech units against 2-2 or 3-3 Z/P units. Well, good luck.
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I think the viper buff will force terran players to bring around bunch of vikings around so that their seige line won't get clouded.. And thats huge chunk of Supply wasted.
As a protoss player Zerg viper timing will be really scary now. I'll probably end up going storm first for every single game.
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On August 13 2013 22:16 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:06 Everlong wrote:On August 13 2013 22:02 eXdeath wrote:
1) yes
2) no, why not slightly cheaper? Right now all 3 races have the same number of upgrades right? It's fine this way. And 5 is not a lot already.
3) no I don't understeand how people can argument with "all 3 races have the same number of upgrades"? Since you have 3 completely different races, why on earth would you go for such comparsion? Should I be mad I'm not able to build 50 units almost instantly as a Terran player? People also seem to forget that Terran infrastructure is the most expensive and they also have the slowest production and transitions. I still don't know why the attack-merge was rolled back in the HOTS beta anyway, this change is great, it makes banshees viable as a fighting unit along with your mech army and ground Vikings won't be so damn horrible as well.
Its is also the main reason why we don’t see Protoss going into heavy stargate tech in SC2 as well. Any building that cost gas cuts into upgrades and other timings. It makes anything but basic units much higher risk with little reward. I hope that the combined upgrades will make factory units more viable for terrans with the freed up gas and let them experiment with more mech styles.
As for the viper, I think the change is ok, but they should consider changing the pull so it doesn’t yank massive units as far. It would let units like thors, BC, carriers and colossi be more resistant to being yanked. Thors could likely zone out vipers with the high impact cannons(which has insane range) if the yank was less effective on them.
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On August 13 2013 22:21 Estancia wrote:
I think the viper buff will force terran players to bring around bunch of vikings around so that their seige line won't get clouded.. And thats huge chunk of Supply wasted.
As a protoss player Zerg viper timing will be really scary now. I'll probably end up going storm first for every single game.
Yep and the Z doesn´t really care if his vipers die when they get their clouds down. 3-4 vipers for a mech ball? Every day...
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On August 13 2013 22:31 Big-t wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:21 Estancia wrote:
I think the viper buff will force terran players to bring around bunch of vikings around so that their seige line won't get clouded.. And thats huge chunk of Supply wasted.
As a protoss player Zerg viper timing will be really scary now. I'll probably end up going storm first for every single game. Yep and the Z doesn´t really care if his vipers die when they get their clouds down. 3-4 vipers for a mech ball? Every day...
Well you would likely want to put the vipers infront of the mech ball to zone them out, like terrans do against colossi.
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On August 13 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:31 Big-t wrote:On August 13 2013 22:21 Estancia wrote:
I think the viper buff will force terran players to bring around bunch of vikings around so that their seige line won't get clouded.. And thats huge chunk of Supply wasted.
As a protoss player Zerg viper timing will be really scary now. I'll probably end up going storm first for every single game. Yep and the Z doesn´t really care if his vipers die when they get their clouds down. 3-4 vipers for a mech ball? Every day... Well you would likely want to put the vipers infront of the mech ball to zone them out, like terrans do against colossi.
Sure but then u can abducted them into your army...
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I guess mines only work because Zerg can not move freely. Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer.
For Terran :
Rework the mine, the games with mines are aweful. You see 10 mines well spread, and then a Ling ball runs in, 20 die the other 60 kill the mines. Thats like...OH OH OH OH...MEH. If they were tanks, they either had god position or bad. The mine feels SO RANDOM. Not fun to watch. A cheesy thing. BRR. Wanna see tank spread and positioning.
Ghost has now same Radius in EMP that templar gets for storm.
TvP is still WoL for the terran ( with some cute harassment on both sides), but with a huge Protoss Buff in form of the Mothershipcore (supports greedy AND agressive play). Also Protoss Air has achieved new hights in imbaness.
Terran mech is born to fail against MOST unit comps that involve a few immortals....
Get the Warhound back. The immortal is the Warhound of Protoss and fucking OP in Protoss vs Mech.
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On August 13 2013 22:34 Big-t wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 22:31 Big-t wrote:On August 13 2013 22:21 Estancia wrote:
I think the viper buff will force terran players to bring around bunch of vikings around so that their seige line won't get clouded.. And thats huge chunk of Supply wasted.
As a protoss player Zerg viper timing will be really scary now. I'll probably end up going storm first for every single game. Yep and the Z doesn´t really care if his vipers die when they get their clouds down. 3-4 vipers for a mech ball? Every day... Well you would likely want to put the vipers infront of the mech ball to zone them out, like terrans do against colossi. Sure but then u can abducted them into your army...
Do you really think they are going to abduct every single one of your viking? Vipers are 200 gas a pop and they can only get about 2 abducts per viper. Also, they have the same range, so the instant they abduct, all the vikings also fire on the viper doing that abducting. That doesn't sound like a winning plan.
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On August 13 2013 22:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 22:34 Big-t wrote:On August 13 2013 22:33 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 22:31 Big-t wrote:On August 13 2013 22:21 Estancia wrote:
I think the viper buff will force terran players to bring around bunch of vikings around so that their seige line won't get clouded.. And thats huge chunk of Supply wasted.
As a protoss player Zerg viper timing will be really scary now. I'll probably end up going storm first for every single game. Yep and the Z doesn´t really care if his vipers die when they get their clouds down. 3-4 vipers for a mech ball? Every day... Well you would likely want to put the vipers infront of the mech ball to zone them out, like terrans do against colossi. Sure but then u can abducted them into your army... Do you really think they are going to abduct every single one of your viking? Vipers are 200 gas a pop and they can only get about 2 abducts per viper. Also, they have the same range, so the instant they abduct, all the vikings also fire on the viper doing that abducting. That doesn't sound like a winning plan.
I know that´s all theory, in this situation the micro comes into play. But if the zerg wants to poke and the T is not looking at his main army, he could sent a few ovis in front to tank the auto fire. Then Vipers cast BC and the mech ball is gone.
Well I guess what I want to say is with vipers on the field the T has to pay a lot more attention to his main army, otherwise Z wins easily.
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Reading this thread makes me think that Z buff is imbalanced and the T buff is shit Kappa now T has 4 upgrades only and don't think, like I said before, the buff to overseer speed is going to help a lot against mines makes worthless the 2 advantages of Z army, speed and numbers so, the only solution, is to rework the mine, but mr Kim doens't want this because is cool to see 30 exploding at the same time... Kappa Mr. Kim should ask the casters about watching all the time roach banelings all the time in T v Z cause you can't win a straight macro game against T (no need of gas + mules = infinite marines incomming) and the widow mine makes the rest, so, I suppose, we are going to have 5-6 months of roach bane allins in T v Z and T should stop micro his bio, like Fantasy against Yugioh this morning (in EU) even Khaldor was getting mad about that, the worst of all is Fantasy won any way cause, at the end, Yugioh didn't had larva to get units out, meanwhile fantasy getting more and more marines and dropping everywhere cause ultras can't do shit against drops.
So this is the result if you go ultras you start getting drops everywhere and, eventually getting killed, and if you still on muta lings against mmmm 3/3 well... we all know what it happens, so roach banneling 100% of the time incomming again!
User was warned for this post
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I just dont understand why they need an energy buff when they can suck energy off any building. So this would increase timings by what 30 second? 1 minute?
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I think a better viper change would be to make blinding cloud cause enemy units to be unable to cast spells and cause all their attacks to miss. This would mean 1) widow mines can not fire, 2) templar/ infestors can be zoned out using clouds (yay positioning things), 3) units under clouds need to be microed out rather than automatically running out, and finally, 4) siege tanks would miss attacks, but still deal area splash damage, so the cloud would not be completely crippling. I believe this is how tanks and dark swarm interacted in brood war?
I mech in every matchup at a diamond level. I can say from experience, vipers are good, but it is far from impossible to deal with using a good tank spread and proper anti-air. The real problem by far is swarm hosts. If you think vipers broke tvz mech more than swarm hosts i'm afraid you're delusional.
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On August 13 2013 22:51 ZionsWrath wrote:
I just dont understand why they need an energy buff when they can suck energy off any building. So this would increase timings by what 30 second? 1 minute?
Exactly--and that's precisely the point. It does basically nothing, except for one specific scenario--Early Colossus pushes in PvZ designed to hit before Vipers can really abduct. It narrows the window for those pushes significantly, and is therefore a moderate buff to lategame ZvP.
In no other scenario will this make a lick of difference. There are essentially no mech pushes in TvZ designed to hit in the narrow window when Zerg is getting hive tech but before Vipers have energy. This will not meaningfully impact TvZ in the slightest. In fact, if all these changes went through, it would be a buff to mech in TvZ due to Vikings sharing upgrades with the mech ground army.
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On August 13 2013 22:54 OatmeeL wrote:
I think a better viper change would be to make blinding cloud cause enemy units to be unable to cast spells and cause all their attacks to miss. This would mean 1) widow mines can not fire, 2) templar/ infestors can be zoned out using clouds (yay positioning things), 3) units under clouds need to be microed out rather than automatically running out, and finally, 4) siege tanks would miss attacks, but still deal area splash damage, so the cloud would not be completely crippling. I believe this is how tanks and dark swarm interacted in brood war?
I mech in every matchup at a diamond level. I can say from experience, vipers are good, but it is far from impossible to deal with using a good tank spread and proper anti-air. The real problem by far is swarm hosts. If you think vipers broke tvz mech more than swarm hosts i'm afraid you're delusional.
You have 2 options to beat Swarm Host with mech:
1) Split your units, force base rase, avoid his waves and hope you can do enough eco damage before 350 mutas appears in your face. This is gabling.
2) Make enough Tanks to not taky any damage from Locusts, take 3 (preferably 4 if possible) bases and mass at ~10 Ravens. Then, you can slowly take another base, or push him back and eventually win with invincible sky/mech fully upgraded composition. This is the safe way, but it takes at least half an hour to properly secure your victory.
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 13 2013 21:46 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:
One more thing that would be problematic imo is PvT transitioning since upgrading mech upgrades now help terran to deal with templar into colossus switches AND colossus into templar switches since it affects both hellbats and vikings. And I really don't feel that's needed at all. Wtf... mech transition vs P? transition into what? Terrible Thors? or terrible BC's? or terrible tanks? or terrible ravens?
If protoss opens with a templar build you can incorporate upgraded hellbats since you need an armory anyway and your factory is idle otherwise. That helps you later when protoss transitions to Colossi since Vikings will already be upgraded.
Other way around if they open with a Colossus build, you upgrade Vikings first, you get upgraded hellbats when protoss transitions to templar.
It's not a matter of being afraid of it or not, there's just no need for it. It's a straight up buff to terran throughout the entire game that good terrans don't need.
On August 13 2013 21:30 Grubby wrote:
Overseer speed buff = great idea
Mech attack combine w/ air = going to have huge ramifications, too big probably. Why is mech unpopular vs Z? Swarm hosts. Fix swarm hosts instead. TvP every time you upgrade Vikings air attack against P, same happens for Hellbats. That's going to be real fun (even 0:0 hellbats pre-patch hellbats were a huge damage dealer to zealots, how are 2-0 hellbats going to be doing?)
Viper full energy from start = bad idea and unwarranted. Vipers are already very good.. what?
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maybe not full energy.. but enough to pop one abduct off.
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EPT
