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On August 13 2013 21:11 PopoChampion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 20:56 Foxxan wrote:On August 13 2013 20:53 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2013 20:52 Incognoto wrote:On August 13 2013 20:23 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2013 20:13 Dingodile wrote:On August 13 2013 20:02 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T). i think its T favored although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all. Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time. I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time. You say here exactly the problem what I see for 1-2months. As many people said, Terrans attacks Zerg permanently that zerg has to build units permanently so that zerg hasnt enough minerals and gas for hive. This is the goal from Terran (no hive), because this is the easiest way to win vs zerg. Not even the best Zergs in the world constantly keep their resources below 300/250 during midgame. I saw countless times things like "10 mutas" in production, meaning Zerg had banked 1k/1k for quite some time, yet Zergs never have 100/100 then 200/150 to tech Hive before 20 minuts? I don't buy that. They bank 1k/1k because their goal is to get out 10 mutas as soon as their spire finishes generally. Don't underestimate Hive cost, it might be 200/150 but you still have to actually buy the upgrades. 300/300 x2 + 150/150 + 200/150 is the actual cost of getting to Hive, to get 3/3, Ultra Carapace and Hive itself. I was obviously not talking about the first mutas. You still dont buy it? how much gas for hive? is it 350 total? Then you need 500gas to upgrade 3-3 for your lings and adrenalinerush 200 gas mutas 3upgrade 250gas you understand why zergs dont rush to hive now faster? Its not that it only costs 350gas but additional gas there AND YES, zerg needs way more gas than terran to fight in battle... YES ITS TRUE!!!!! Absolutely. Getting hive itself is a big investment but nothing happens when your hive completes right? This investment does not pay off until you get some kind of hive tech (3-3 upgrades or ultras). This costs even more money. If you want to get 3-3 upgrades immediately, you must start your infestation pit at the same time as starting your 2-2, which is even more gas taken away from your muta ball. If terran catches wind of this, the initial timing at 11:30 with two medivacs will keep you in your base with no presence on the map for a very long time and terran can take a fourth base. Infestation pit (100 gas) and Hive (150 gas) put you behind in gas roughly 25 seconds if mining off 3 base, which can be a long time against an aggressive terran. Not to mention you have to invest more gas in banelings than they invest in widow mines/marauders.
Yes this seems to be trouble atm, atleast in the pro games. 3-3 terran eventually beating 2-2 zerg. I actually think there is a problem with gas and terran that has been overlooked in TvZ. Terran is never starved for gas in this match up. To me it seems a bit strange, especially when you add mules, that one race basically only needs to worry about one resource in a matchup where the same resource is crucial to the other race. Unfortunately I have no idea how to adress this issue without breaking the game ^^
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Overseer speed buff = great idea
Mech attack combine w/ air = going to have huge ramifications, too big probably. Why is mech unpopular vs Z? Swarm hosts. Fix swarm hosts instead. TvP every time you upgrade Vikings air attack against P, same happens for Hellbats. That's going to be real fun (even 0:0 hellbats pre-patch hellbats were a huge damage dealer to zealots, how are 2-0 hellbats going to be doing?)
Viper full energy from start = bad idea and unwarranted. Vipers are already very good.. what?
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I think the issue with the widow mine is the overall lack of a way for zerg to detect without the mine "killing" the detection. As it stands zerg essentially has 2 methods of detection, overseer and spore. The other races have 3, (cannon/oracle/obs-turret/raven/scan). So what you see is the problem that zerg lacks a form of detection that the mine can't kill. Scan and OBS allow the other races to pick off the mine. Right now the overseer when flying around often dies because you have to stop it at the perfect spot ... close enough to see the mine but far enough to not get hit by it or the terran units. Overseer is just to easy to kill and pretty expensive to make a lot of them... it adds up if they keep dying.
So to me it leaves 2 choices.. either change widow mine so they don't shoot up, or help zerg detection. Since changing mines so they don't shoot up maybe makes mutas to strong lets go with improving zerg detection. My vote is that changelings now detect. That way you get a unit that can detect the widow mines but won't set them off. They can still be killed and targeted by the terran as well. I think that would be a cool change because if your changings get killed you need to get the overseer into the battle, but if you can keep them alive you can hold back your overseers and drop changlings. I think it would add a good dynamic and give extra use to changlings.
Just my 2 cents, I think better detection would go a long way and changelings would give zerg a "free" form of detection that is really needed in dealing with the mines and then you don't have to nerf anything and it makes it so that that it becomes more skillful all around(terran picking off changlings and zerg using them to find mines).
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On August 13 2013 20:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 20:21 KOtical wrote:i remember a time when nobody could handle banelings... the answer was splitting units, and we still need to do itl, even though blizzard never even thought about marine splits... so ask urself whats the answer on being effeciency against widow mines now?! i can tell u splitting units helps alot... That's just made up. Before MKP invented Marineplay, Terrans didn't even play marinebased. And were more than fine without it in that. It's not that nobody could handle banelings. Banelingplay did hardly exist because marineplay didnt exist.
so u want to tell me that the bane bust strat was not an option at that time??? i guess u came in later...
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 13 2013 21:30 Grubby wrote:
Overseer speed buff = great idea
Mech attack combine w/ air = going to have huge ramifications, too big probably. Why is mech unpopular vs Z? Swarm hosts. Fix swarm hosts instead. TvP every time you upgrade Vikings air attack against P, same happens for Hellbats. That's going to be real fun (even 0:0 hellbats pre-patch hellbats were a huge damage dealer to zealots, how are 2-0 hellbats going to be doing?)
Viper full energy from start = bad idea and unwarranted. Vipers are already very good.. what?
I'm really really scared of the already really powerful Ultra/Viper/Queen timing if the Viper change goes through. Roach/hydra/viper timings as well although we should still be able to prepare for that in time
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On August 13 2013 21:30 Grubby wrote:
Overseer speed buff = great idea
Mech attack combine w/ air = going to have huge ramifications, too big probably. Why is mech unpopular vs Z? Swarm hosts. Fix swarm hosts instead. TvP every time you upgrade Vikings air attack against P, same happens for Hellbats. That's going to be real fun (even 0:0 hellbats pre-patch hellbats were a huge damage dealer to zealots, how are 2-0 hellbats going to be doing?)
Viper full energy from start = bad idea and unwarranted. Vipers are already very good.. what?
hail to the king =)
but grubby u really think that overseer speed will give zerg a better chance to stop widow mine pushes? as for zvp i think it has almost none impact...
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On August 13 2013 21:27 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 21:13 Swisslink wrote:On August 13 2013 21:10 Naphal wrote:On August 13 2013 20:56 Foxxan wrote:On August 13 2013 20:53 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2013 20:52 Incognoto wrote:On August 13 2013 20:23 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2013 20:13 Dingodile wrote:On August 13 2013 20:02 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:
[quote]
i think its T favored
although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all. Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time. I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time. You say here exactly the problem what I see for 1-2months. As many people said, Terrans attacks Zerg permanently that zerg has to build units permanently so that zerg hasnt enough minerals and gas for hive. This is the goal from Terran (no hive), because this is the easiest way to win vs zerg. Not even the best Zergs in the world constantly keep their resources below 300/250 during midgame. I saw countless times things like "10 mutas" in production, meaning Zerg had banked 1k/1k for quite some time, yet Zergs never have 100/100 then 200/150 to tech Hive before 20 minuts? I don't buy that. They bank 1k/1k because their goal is to get out 10 mutas as soon as their spire finishes generally. Don't underestimate Hive cost, it might be 200/150 but you still have to actually buy the upgrades. 300/300 x2 + 150/150 + 200/150 is the actual cost of getting to Hive, to get 3/3, Ultra Carapace and Hive itself. I was obviously not talking about the first mutas. You still dont buy it? how much gas for hive? is it 350 total? Then you need 500gas to upgrade 3-3 for your lings and adrenalinerush 200 gas mutas 3upgrade 250gas you understand why zergs dont rush to hive now faster? Its not that it only costs 350gas but additional gas there AND YES, zerg needs way more gas than terran to fight in battle... YES ITS TRUE!!!!! thats pretty greedy you know? maybe get hive first (its not expensive a factory with reactor costs the same) and then step by step maybe adrenal first, or 3 / 3, or an ultra cavern? why do you think you should be able to upgrade everything on hivetech at once? Well, then you invest in Hive tech and have barely any benefit. Once sou hit Hive you really need to get Hive tech going, otherwise the investment for the Hive itself weights even more and in the clashs you still look kinda bad. well not making the transition is not an option as many zerg here pointed out, and making it with thousands of ressources for ultras and upgrades obviously is not either when the terran invests heavily in the midgame, so i think if you are hardpressed but still want to advance your tech, you have to be choosing what you want, be it an allin, infestors after mutas then hive or hive and only one upgrade at a time, dunno, i just think it is right that zerg cannot easily reach lategame and pump his ressources into t3 + upgrades where terran has nothing to look forward to but more mmmm <.<
Won't argue against that. But I think right now the transition is just too hard, or takes too long for the current meta game. The Zerg is just constantly pressured and gets no room to breath or to act freely. All units he gets, all the ressources he gathers are just used to somehow stay alive against the neverending swarm of Bio/Mine.
And well... MMMM isn't too bad against Ultralisks neither. Fungals are no longer that big of a deal und Marauders destroy Ultralisks. If the Terran is on 4 bases, and he should be the time the Zerg gets his Ultralisks out, even if they were out earlier, I don't think that would be too big of a deal. His attack might be stopped, but the Terran has other opportunities to tear the Zerg apart (Dropping against Ultralisks is kind of effective :-P ).
It would give the Zerg back a little control over the game, if they were able to get Hive tech more often. And the games would definitely be more entertaining if there were 2 active players on the map instead of just one. 
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Austria24422 Posts
One more thing that would be problematic imo is PvT transitioning since upgrading mech upgrades now help terran to deal with templar into colossus switches AND colossus into templar switches since it affects both hellbats and vikings. And I really don't feel that's needed at all.
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Don't know if this buffs can really help zerg.
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On August 13 2013 20:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 20:37 Achaia wrote:On August 13 2013 04:27 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Vipers will full energy? So they didn't learn anything from the HT Amulet upgrade?
The f... The difference is that none of the viper abilities deal damage though. Worst case scenario you can either abduct a unit or two or throw down a blinding cloud. Both are good options, but neither are anywhere near as powerful as being able to warp in Psi Storm as needed. Overall I think it's cool that they're buffing units rather than nerfing them. Hopefully this will lead to less balance whines when the patch hits about "now I can't win any games as Terran because Hellbats suck..." and such. Oh come on ... Abduct doesnt deal damage, but when you pull an expensive unit into a clump of Hydralisks and that unit is annihilated in less than half a second - without giving the defender any chance to micro or defend against it - you know something is wrong. I am not saying that abduct is the baddie here but rather the clumped up armies is. As long as this remains in the game abduct - and consequently the Viper - doesnt need to be buffed.
You are correct but I would rather lose one key unit than have a storm blanket a large amount of damage over my entire army. Plus there's always the difference of being able to warp in a high templar ANYWHERE on the map which also made the amulet upgrade too strong because you could warp in storm wherever you needed it. The viper at least has to come from a hatchery and move across the map too. I'm just saying, you're comparing apples to oranges here and whether or not you think the viper should be buffed (which to be clear I'm not saying it necessarily needs a buff) the comparison to the high templar amulet upgrade is completely inaccurate.
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On August 13 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:
One more thing that would be problematic imo is PvT transitioning since upgrading mech upgrades now help terran to deal with templar into colossus switches AND colossus into templar switches since it affects both hellbats and vikings. And I really don't feel that's needed at all.
Wtf... mech transition vs P? transition into what?
Terrible Thors? or terrible BC's? or terrible tanks? or terrible ravens?
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On August 13 2013 21:46 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:
One more thing that would be problematic imo is PvT transitioning since upgrading mech upgrades now help terran to deal with templar into colossus switches AND colossus into templar switches since it affects both hellbats and vikings. And I really don't feel that's needed at all. Wtf... mech transition vs P? transition into what? Terrible Thors? or terrible BC's? or terrible tanks? or terrible ravens?
he is afraid of 20 or 22 dmg hellbats. that's all!
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On August 13 2013 21:48 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 21:46 Rhaegal wrote:On August 13 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:
One more thing that would be problematic imo is PvT transitioning since upgrading mech upgrades now help terran to deal with templar into colossus switches AND colossus into templar switches since it affects both hellbats and vikings. And I really don't feel that's needed at all. Wtf... mech transition vs P? transition into what? Terrible Thors? or terrible BC's? or terrible tanks? or terrible ravens? he is afraid of 20 or 22 dmg hellbats. that's all!
That's a complete non issue then.
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On August 13 2013 17:18 ReMinD_ wrote:
Standard Blizzard. Beating around the bush. It's like they are playing completely different game.
They made TvZ in Hots dependent on widow mines. Units like vipers no longer allow for tank play so terrans are using the best tools they have. Lets say, for argument sake, mines are really a bit too strong against zerg. What happens if they nerf them directly? The balance will probably swing in zerg's favor and they would end up with the same problem all over again.
They want to improve balance not shift between who gets to be stronger this month, or this patch.
So I think it is reasonable to try to go around, slowly increasing zerg ability to fight the mine, instead of nerfing the mine directly.
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On August 13 2013 21:16 monkybone wrote:
people are always so negative about blizzards thoughts of balance changes, yet blizzard is continually proven right. they are actually doing a damn good job at this
i like the changes, the overseer buff will result in a strict resource buff to zerg, help the muta flock in taking out mines, and also decrease damage taken from cloaked units overall
viper is hardly seen in professional games, they definitely need a buff. ultra viper tvp would be nice
blizzard sees mech as a transition from bio in tvp, which is interesting. if mech is more powerful than bio, but also harder to get to, it would make the matchup ten times more interesting than it is now. I would love to see terrans transition into late game mech.
mech in tvz is a joke though, and will still be a joke after this. nothing new to see here
tanks still needs to be stronger late game vs zerg. but i dont see how that is possible without ruining tvt. Maybe some terran ability to cancel/resist the effect of spells is the solution.
tanks do need a late game upgrade that gives +damage vs shields though (also immortal shield)
you can just as easily say they are almost continously proven wrong..
Hots had as a core goal to make mech playable, it didn't succeed at all in that..
They tried a lot of changes with new units in hots, most of which don't see much play at all..
Widow mine is new core unit basically replacing the siege tank. I don't mind it too much but it's hardly an upgrade for the game considering how cool and popular the siege tank is.
Hellbat was the bane of many player and is now nerfed into oblivion not seeing much play anymore.
Vipers see little play, probably because it's too easily countered by ht eventually in PvZ and just has no use in other matchups barring siege play.
Swarm hosts see even less play and when they do it's more often than not in the dreaded mass static defense style.
MSC sees a lot of play obviously and is perhaps the biggest change still I wouldn't call it a big success. For PvZ and PvP it's pretty good diversifying the openings and leading to some more midgame action, for PvT it's just worse imo making the earlygame even less action plus you basically never see P using recall in PvT..
Oracle is quite rare too, phoenix mostly outclass it as harass unit and it just remains a gimmicky suprise opener.
Tempest is pretty rare but at least prevents other boring units from being massed.
Hots only changed the game for the better by fixing some old units really, hydra/ultra buff, infestor nerf and voidray buff especially. Overall it was a huge waste of an oppurtunity to take the game from good to great..
People somehow have this idea that balancing the game is super difficult but it is not. Just take the LoL approach more, just lots of gentle tweaks, buffing units that are underused. Mech wouldn't be too hard to fix, just slightly buff the tank and thor and you get there. Instead blizzard never did such things, wasted the entire beta with rediculous stuff basically (warhound, tons of silly oracle changes) and actually resorted to incredibly ugly changes lately (biological hellbats, spore buff vs biological, widow mines bonus vs shields), yet still they haven't managed to get a bit more diversity in most matchups.
You can look at it in either way but I think there is a far stronger case to be made that blizzard has been failing hard lately than saying they are continously proven right... The best thing they did in HotS was fixing something they should have done long before already.. Nerfing infestor/broodlord and mothership to uselessness.
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On August 13 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:
One more thing that would be problematic imo is PvT transitioning since upgrading mech upgrades now help terran to deal with templar into colossus switches AND colossus into templar switches since it affects both hellbats and vikings. And I really don't feel that's needed at all.
SuperNova is the only high level Terran I have seen use Hellbats since the nerf. Teching BFH is very impractical, especially given how quick Protoss' tech switches are, so Hellbats are almost extinct in high level TvP.
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On August 13 2013 21:51 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 21:48 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2013 21:46 Rhaegal wrote:On August 13 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:
One more thing that would be problematic imo is PvT transitioning since upgrading mech upgrades now help terran to deal with templar into colossus switches AND colossus into templar switches since it affects both hellbats and vikings. And I really don't feel that's needed at all. Wtf... mech transition vs P? transition into what? Terrible Thors? or terrible BC's? or terrible tanks? or terrible ravens? he is afraid of 20 or 22 dmg hellbats. that's all! That's a complete non issue then.
but Protoss can't win any tournaments ya no? Seriously these ideas sound pretty reasonable to me. The only problem I see is, that the Upgrade changes will end up only affecting TvT again.
On August 13 2013 21:52 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:
One more thing that would be problematic imo is PvT transitioning since upgrading mech upgrades now help terran to deal with templar into colossus switches AND colossus into templar switches since it affects both hellbats and vikings. And I really don't feel that's needed at all. SuperNova is the only high level Terran I have seen use Hellbats since the nerf. Teching BFH is very impractical, especially given how quick Protoss' tech switches are, so Hellbats are almost extinct in high level TvP.
And he lost all games where he went for it? Kinda like that!
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1) yes
2) no, why not slightly cheaper? Right now all 3 races have the same number of upgrades right? It's fine this way. And 5 is not a lot already.
3) no
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EPT
