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On August 13 2013 20:13 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 20:02 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T). i think its T favored although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all. Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time. I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time. You say here exactly the problem what I see for 1-2months. As many people said, Terrans attacks Zerg permanently that zerg has to build units permanently so that zerg hasnt enough minerals and gas for hive. This is the goal from Terran (no hive), because this is the easiest way to win vs zerg.
Not even the best Zergs in the world constantly keep their resources below 300/250 during midgame. I saw countless times things like "10 mutas" in production, meaning Zerg had banked 1k/1k for quite some time, yet Zergs never have 100/100 then 200/150 to tech Hive before 20 minuts? I don't buy that.
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Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine but rather buff something on the zerg side to handle the relentless onslaught of marine/mines.
Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine to make T players use tanks, but rather buff the tank so that theres a different advantage in going tanks over widow mines i.e. diversifying the matchup more.
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and again more buffs for the T and making a bit buff for the Z... David kim just wants more Roach / bane allin cause he doesn't understand Z can't move with those shit on the map, I'm zerg player and I don't care about viper with full energy or overseer with more mobility... just to want to be able to use the advantages of zerg that are numbers and mobility and widow mine makes worthless both. Can you redisign the fucking widow mine? TY
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On August 13 2013 20:24 YyapSsap wrote:
Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine but rather buff something on the zerg side to handle the relentless onslaught of marine/mines.
Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine to make T players use tanks, but rather buff the tank so that theres a different advantage in going tanks over widow mines i.e. diversifying the matchup more.
Tell me one of those changes that makes easier to Z players to deal with widow mines? I'm going to tell you the answer: none
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On August 13 2013 20:21 KOtical wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 18:41 Swisslink wrote:On August 13 2013 17:56 Snowbear wrote:I'm getting SICK of all these zergs acting like TvZ is TERRAN FAVOURED. Stop that. Seriously. Check out the GM ladder and you will notice how zergs are doing BETTER against terrans than terrans are doing against zerg. Yes, some zergs are losing in tournaments. But god forbid that the terrans they lose to are just better! I also wondered why those zergs don't constantly link aligulac reports, like they did a month ago. Then I checked the site and I saw TvZ 51%. http://aligulac.com/reports. Seriously guys??? Trying to create the end of WOL all over again? Blizz is nice and gives a faster overseer and better vipers, but if you read the zerg comments then " it is not enough". Really, what is wrong with you guys? So sad that 1 unit forces zerg micro, and oooohh it has to go down ASAP! So sad  Go ask any highmaster - grandmaster terran about his TvZ. A lot of them will tell you the story about TvZ being their worst matchup, or as good as their other. But their best matchup? No. You see absolutely no issues in TvZ? I mean, it's absolutely ok that Zerg has to Roach/Bane all in every game unless they're just miles ahead skillwise? As soon as the Terran reaches 3/3, the Zerg is basically dead, almost every single professional tournament in the last few month proves that point. If there isn't a huge skill difference between the players with the Zerg being the better one (Scarlett vs alive as an example) Zerg will barely win a map past the 15min mark. That's simply a fact and there has been more than enough prove for it lately. You seem to forget a few things, because you're obviously terribly biased towards Terran: 1. You can micro against Banelings, right. But you shouldn't really compare them to Widow Mines. In contrast to banelings, Widow Mines are invisible and no one's able to split once the widow mine shot is on the way. Because... You know... The shot moves kinda fast. And if there are about 15 widow mines burrowed you won't ever get a good engagement, because they are EVERYWHERE! 2. Zerg should tech switch? How many pro-games ZvT have you seen lately? The Zerg normally needs ALL his larva to stay alive while the Terran is on 2/2. And: Tech Switches before Hive Tech don't really help - and normally it's over once the Zerg reaches Hive Tech, because the Terran already got 3/3 before any Ultralisks are out. The Zerg is in a purely defensive position, you can't expect them to be able to tech switch in such a situation, because it's not really possible if the Terran plays the style properly. Even for Zerg a tech switch needs some time - and you'll never get this time. 3. Well... Ask the top Zerg how they think about ZvT... They probably won't like it, simply because... Who likes to lose all the time? :-) Nobody wants Late WoL back, because free wins in late game are boring - You seem to feel different if its the Terran who's unstoppable as soon as 3/3 hits. And btw: it's not too much fun to play if you have to defend all game long, never even leaving the 4th base because you need every single unit to stay alive. Even if you completely ignore the facts (-> Balance issues), the gameplay for Zerg just sucks right now in ZvT and somehow has to be changed. so u say u cant win against a terran after 15 mins? well the problem is surely more mid game based not lategame (after 15 mins). so terran got an edge in mid game in TvZ and TvP. Terran has no chance in lategame TvP if he dont get a good fighting position. i still see TvZ after 15 mins Zerg favoured. ok zerg can get dropped and shit, but if that drops makes so much damage its because poor defense... and i bet u werent arguing about the zerg position (lategame) in late wol, even though u act like now its so boring im pretty sure u got into late gmae zvt in wol all the time and getting all those "free wins". and now u start crying when terran got a better chance in mid game wich is the only phase in the game (except for tvt) where terran´s got an advantage... ya maybe the widow mine is a bit to strong in mid game or to cost efficiency, but why its the question? i remember a time when nobody could handle banelings... the answer was splitting units, and we still need to do itl, even though blizzard never even thought about marine splits... so ask urself whats the answer on being effeciency against widow mines now?! i can tell u splitting units helps alot...
/this
i face a lot of good zergs, which were able to outmicro my mines (maybe because i suck with placement ^^), but the managed it, after this move, i was overrunned by the zerg army witz ez ... i absolutly share the opinion of KOtical
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On August 13 2013 20:31 tyranolol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 20:24 YyapSsap wrote:
Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine but rather buff something on the zerg side to handle the relentless onslaught of marine/mines.
Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine to make T players use tanks, but rather buff the tank so that theres a different advantage in going tanks over widow mines i.e. diversifying the matchup more. Tell me one of those changes that makes easier to Z players to deal with widow mines? I'm going to tell you the answer: none
Buff the fungal damage as it does nothing now (but obviously its still a projectile)? It would be so much more interesting to see if infestors had a shakeup as well but not in a way that it becomes your core composition which was the problem in WoL.
Change binding cloud so that its more effective vs bio?
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By the way, I still don't get it why blizzard doesn't NERF something. Everything gets buffed like crazy and someday every unit in SC2 has insane movement speeds and thousands of spells... Just kidding, but I don't get blizzards course of action atm.
I am still praying that they will remove muta regeneration someday. Personally, it broke PvZ for me. But that's just because I was always awful against muta play.
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On August 13 2013 20:24 YyapSsap wrote:
Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine but rather buff something on the zerg side to handle the relentless onslaught of marine/mines.
Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine to make T players use tanks, but rather buff the tank so that theres a different advantage in going tanks over widow mines i.e. diversifying the matchup more.
And why wont that "buff" just make the unit buffed too strong against everything else ... and thus screw over the whole balance again (even against Protoss)? I hope you arent suggesting any stupid "+ vs Widow Mines" changes ...
Only trying to fix a game by buffing stuff DOES NOT WORK because it starts a spiral of adjustments and really destabilises everything.
Btw ... tanks are SHIT because they are produced slowly and deal ridiculous damage to everything non-armored. Thats why Terrans dont use them, but Blizzard is happy about it because they dont like mech and dont want us playing it (except for fun).
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On August 13 2013 04:27 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Vipers will full energy? So they didn't learn anything from the HT Amulet upgrade?
The f...
The difference is that none of the viper abilities deal damage though. Worst case scenario you can either abduct a unit or two or throw down a blinding cloud. Both are good options, but neither are anywhere near as powerful as being able to warp in Psi Storm as needed. Overall I think it's cool that they're buffing units rather than nerfing them. Hopefully this will lead to less balance whines when the patch hits about "now I can't win any games as Terran because Hellbats suck..." and such.
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On August 13 2013 20:21 KOtical wrote:i remember a time when nobody could handle banelings... the answer was splitting units, and we still need to do itl, even though blizzard never even thought about marine splits... so ask urself whats the answer on being effeciency against widow mines now?! i can tell u splitting units helps alot...
That's just made up. Before MKP invented Marineplay, Terrans didn't even play marinebased. And were more than fine without it in that.
It's not that nobody could handle banelings. Banelingplay did hardly exist because marineplay didnt exist.
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On August 13 2013 20:37 Achaia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 04:27 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Vipers will full energy? So they didn't learn anything from the HT Amulet upgrade?
The f... The difference is that none of the viper abilities deal damage though. Worst case scenario you can either abduct a unit or two or throw down a blinding cloud. Both are good options, but neither are anywhere near as powerful as being able to warp in Psi Storm as needed. Overall I think it's cool that they're buffing units rather than nerfing them. Hopefully this will lead to less balance whines when the patch hits about "now I can't win any games as Terran because Hellbats suck..." and such.
Oh come on ... Abduct doesnt deal damage, but when you pull an expensive unit into a clump of Hydralisks and that unit is annihilated in less than half a second - without giving the defender any chance to micro or defend against it - you know something is wrong.
I am not saying that abduct is the baddie here but rather the clumped up armies is. As long as this remains in the game abduct - and consequently the Viper - doesnt need to be buffed.
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On August 13 2013 20:31 tyranolol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 20:24 YyapSsap wrote:
Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine but rather buff something on the zerg side to handle the relentless onslaught of marine/mines.
Blizzard doesn't have to nerf the widow mine to make T players use tanks, but rather buff the tank so that theres a different advantage in going tanks over widow mines i.e. diversifying the matchup more. Tell me one of those changes that makes easier to Z players to deal with widow mines? I'm going to tell you the answer: none
Make blinding cloud work on widow mines. And to not make it op, reduce the size of the spell. It could resolve a little bit the problems with mech and stalker balls.
Also with this zergs will want to rush hive more. So we will have a window for terrans that can continue a little bit after vipers are out.
Then if you had the combined mech/air upgrades you could have easier transitions for terrans after the zerg has gotten hive.
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On August 13 2013 04:35 Aquila- wrote:
Viper with full energy is ridiculous, they want to make mech better but 3 vipers can already shut down 20 spread out tanks...
You don't build that much tanks anymore, vipers are quite bad against hellbats.
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Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled.
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On August 13 2013 18:38 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 18:31 DidYuhim wrote:On August 13 2013 04:28 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 04:27 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Vipers will full energy? So they didn't learn anything from the HT Amulet upgrade?
The f... Oh its fine, they don't have storm. Lets talk about Hellbats and vikings upgrading as one. Hellbat/marauder/viking to rule them all. oh @#$! I realised that now  for me, viper change was just tooo great. I thought they once did this kind of patch (combining ground and air upgrades) earlier, didn't they? Why they are doing it again?
They combined armor upgrades, not attack upgrades.
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imo the drilling claws upgrade is what makes mines later in the game too strong and especially too forgiving/mobile, wonder why this isnt talked about much
this is also a fix that would directly affect what blizzard regards as problematic in the tvz matchup
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On August 13 2013 20:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 20:13 Dingodile wrote:On August 13 2013 20:02 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T). i think its T favored although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all. Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time. I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time. You say here exactly the problem what I see for 1-2months. As many people said, Terrans attacks Zerg permanently that zerg has to build units permanently so that zerg hasnt enough minerals and gas for hive. This is the goal from Terran (no hive), because this is the easiest way to win vs zerg. Not even the best Zergs in the world constantly keep their resources below 300/250 during midgame. I saw countless times things like "10 mutas" in production, meaning Zerg had banked 1k/1k for quite some time, yet Zergs never have 100/100 then 200/150 to tech Hive before 20 minuts? I don't buy that.
They bank 1k/1k because their goal is to get out 10 mutas as soon as their spire finishes generally. Don't underestimate Hive cost, it might be 200/150 but you still have to actually buy the upgrades. 300/300 x2 + 150/150 + 200/150 is the actual cost of getting to Hive, to get 3/3, Ultra Carapace and Hive itself.
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On August 13 2013 20:52 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 20:23 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2013 20:13 Dingodile wrote:On August 13 2013 20:02 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T). i think its T favored although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all. Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time. I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time. You say here exactly the problem what I see for 1-2months. As many people said, Terrans attacks Zerg permanently that zerg has to build units permanently so that zerg hasnt enough minerals and gas for hive. This is the goal from Terran (no hive), because this is the easiest way to win vs zerg. Not even the best Zergs in the world constantly keep their resources below 300/250 during midgame. I saw countless times things like "10 mutas" in production, meaning Zerg had banked 1k/1k for quite some time, yet Zergs never have 100/100 then 200/150 to tech Hive before 20 minuts? I don't buy that. They bank 1k/1k because their goal is to get out 10 mutas as soon as their spire finishes generally. Don't underestimate Hive cost, it might be 200/150 but you still have to actually buy the upgrades. 300/300 x2 + 150/150 + 200/150 is the actual cost of getting to Hive, to get 3/3, Ultra Carapace and Hive itself.
I was obviously not talking about the first mutas.
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On August 13 2013 20:50 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 18:38 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:31 DidYuhim wrote:On August 13 2013 04:28 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 04:27 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Vipers will full energy? So they didn't learn anything from the HT Amulet upgrade?
The f... Oh its fine, they don't have storm. Lets talk about Hellbats and vikings upgrading as one. Hellbat/marauder/viking to rule them all. oh @#$! I realised that now for me, viper change was just tooo great. I thought they once did this kind of patch (combining ground and air upgrades) earlier, didn't they? Why they are doing it again? They combined armor upgrades, not attack upgrades.
No they combined attack upgrade also, get your facts straight
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On August 13 2013 20:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 20:52 Incognoto wrote:On August 13 2013 20:23 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2013 20:13 Dingodile wrote:On August 13 2013 20:02 Faust852 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T). i think its T favored although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all. Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time. I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time. You say here exactly the problem what I see for 1-2months. As many people said, Terrans attacks Zerg permanently that zerg has to build units permanently so that zerg hasnt enough minerals and gas for hive. This is the goal from Terran (no hive), because this is the easiest way to win vs zerg. Not even the best Zergs in the world constantly keep their resources below 300/250 during midgame. I saw countless times things like "10 mutas" in production, meaning Zerg had banked 1k/1k for quite some time, yet Zergs never have 100/100 then 200/150 to tech Hive before 20 minuts? I don't buy that. They bank 1k/1k because their goal is to get out 10 mutas as soon as their spire finishes generally. Don't underestimate Hive cost, it might be 200/150 but you still have to actually buy the upgrades. 300/300 x2 + 150/150 + 200/150 is the actual cost of getting to Hive, to get 3/3, Ultra Carapace and Hive itself. I was obviously not talking about the first mutas.
You still dont buy it?
how much gas for hive? is it 350 total?
Then you need 500gas to upgrade 3-3 for your lings
and adrenalinerush 200 gas
mutas 3upgrade 250gas
you understand why zergs dont rush to hive now faster?
Its not that it only costs 350gas but additional gas there
AND YES, zerg needs way more gas than terran to fight in battle... YES ITS TRUE!!!!!
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EPT
