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On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that's zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T).
Again, main problem is the tech from lair to hive, there is basically not enough minerals and gas because you have to keep build units permanently, if Terran attacks you permanently. Terrans macro is easily better than zergs without hive units.
Best example was Innovation vs Soulkey Ro8. Inno attacks sk permanently so that sk cant go hive.
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On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T).
i think its T favored
although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good
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Terran is definitely mechanically demanding, probably more so than Zerg. That doesn't mean Terran units aren't more cost-efficient than Zerg ones, you NEED infestors or you just can't keep up with Terran. Zerg has never been an a-move race, you can't a-move into siege tanks or Thors with ling/bling/muta anymore than you can into widow mines.
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Like I have mentioned before, the viper can be a useful/pivotal spell caster IF binding cloud halves the enemy range (or some %) within the AOE AND provide some sort of an armor bonus (or a defensive buff) to zerg units underneath it. This way you can use the cloud to retreat, create a safer pathway your zerg units to get to the enemy, could also be use to nullify enemy range units to some degree while not totally killing off mech (or making stimmed bio units just "AI" themselves out).
Right now its way too much of a niche ability that is super effective against tanks/slow mech units while being totally worthless against bio since they can just escape/pick up boost away.
I also think they need to have the viper be tied to the spire or some building and have upgrades for it... Its like they just gave up with this unit.
Actually HOTS is a cluster*** of a mess where the problems are just now more glaringly obvious to people now after the "wow" and the "aaaah" effect due to the game being "new" has worn off.
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On August 13 2013 18:58 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 18:54 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:20 double1185 wrote:On August 13 2013 18:06 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:02 MattD wrote:On August 13 2013 17:56 Snowbear wrote:I'm getting SICK of all these zergs acting like TvZ is TERRAN FAVOURED. Stop that. Seriously. Check out the GM ladder and you will notice how zergs are doing BETTER against terrans than terrans are doing against zerg. Yes, some zergs are losing in tournaments. But god forbid that the terrans they lose to are just better! I also wondered why those zergs don't constantly link aligulac reports, like they did a month ago. Then I checked the site and I saw TvZ 51%. http://aligulac.com/reports. Seriously guys??? Trying to create the end of WOL all over again? Blizz is nice and gives a faster overseer and better vipers, but if you read the zerg comments then " it is not enough". Really, what is wrong with you guys? So sad that 1 unit forces zerg micro, and oooohh it has to go down ASAP! So sad  You should actually try playing the game, it's pretty obvious to everyone that Terran reaches a point where the have so much bio and so many widow mines its impossible for zerg to get a cost efficient engagement, no one is saying the match up is un-winnable by any means, but most people acknowledge there are some issues with it. Percentages don't tell you shit about how the match up plays out. I'd like to see you micro against 10-15 widow mines and come out of it decently I play the game. I had to practice for 3 years to be able to get my micro up. I need to split like a madman. That's insanely hard. I need to multitask like a beast. I need to drop everywhere, while moving my army, burrowing in time, splitting my marines and actually targetting with my mines. Oh, and meanwhile I need to macro. Not hard enough? But you poor puppy need need to split his ling bling now? You can't 1a anymore like in WOL? How unacceptable! Let's ask for widowmine nerfs. And by the terran reaches so much 3-3 bio and mines, you should've moved away from muta ling bling. Your race is created for techswitches so please... And "percentages don't tell us shit"? That's easy. Then I claim that ultralisks and broodlords are too strong. Why? Because it feels that way. Nooo noo noo, don't show me stats, they don't count! My own feeling is what counts. See what I did there? You claim that something is strong, with 0 backup, just like you did in WOL. Blizzard listened in WOL, and the whole matchup went in zergs favour. Why? Because there was not a single problem with TvZ. If you change a matchup where there are no problems, then you create a problem. And so we went into 1 year of zerg domination. I dont think a Z equally lvl as a T has to do any less multitask so please cut the crap of u have to do so much, i dont know where u look at but clearly in the scene of pro SC2 atm the rate of Z is really low as low as some of the first day of WoL and every terran TvZ go bio-mine just like every Z at the end of WoL go broodlord/infestor so either there is not a good enough Z player at the same lvl as current top T players or simply there is a problem w/ the game and i go for the second one Zergs now need to work as hard as the terran. That's what I'm saying. You can't 1a anymore and you need to practice now. The freewin WOL days are OVER. And this IS the proscene: http://aligulac.com/reports. It says 51%. Thats BALANCED. So please, stop with your fiction. Bro. read this and say something. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance Bro. The numbers are 51%. Your balance claims are fiction. Bro. READ quoting from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance(Quote) Balance vs. Fairness Myth: If a player wins 50% of the time when playing against an equally skilled player, the game is balanced. Gimps and OP units don't necessarily affect the probability of victory. Consider a game similar to rock-paper-scissors that has one more option "pinky" which always loses when used. The game rock-paper-scissors-pinky is imbalanced because it has a "gimp". No player would ever use the "pinky". Rock-paper-scissors-pinky is a fair game but its units aren't well balanced (Quote) The game is fair. I never said the game itself is so broken as hell. what I said was one 'specific unit' is not balanced (not totally broken, but broken.)
Ok. But pls let's think your point to the end. Widow mines are broken and too strong, so you want Blizzard to nerf them. Every terran builds his whole playstyle on widow mines (which are way too strong as mentioned) right now. Yet winrates are very stable around 50% (below top WCS Premier).
So now one question: What do you think will happen in the matchup, if Blizzard follows your wish and nerfs widow mines?
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Like I have mentioned before, the viper can be a useful/pivotal spell caster IF binding cloud halves the enemy range (or some %) within the AOE AND provide some sort of an armor bonus (or a defensive buff) to zerg units underneath it. This way you can use the cloud to retreat, create a safer pathway your zerg units to get to the enemy, could also be use to nullify enemy range units to some degree while not totally killing off mech (or making stimmed bio units just "AI" themselves out).
In fact, this is kind of a fuck*** good idea behind this. Make me think about removing smartfire on units under the blind cloud. don't know if it's a good way, but this kind of thing sounds cool.
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On August 13 2013 19:39 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 18:58 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:54 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:20 double1185 wrote:On August 13 2013 18:06 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:02 MattD wrote:On August 13 2013 17:56 Snowbear wrote:I'm getting SICK of all these zergs acting like TvZ is TERRAN FAVOURED. Stop that. Seriously. Check out the GM ladder and you will notice how zergs are doing BETTER against terrans than terrans are doing against zerg. Yes, some zergs are losing in tournaments. But god forbid that the terrans they lose to are just better! I also wondered why those zergs don't constantly link aligulac reports, like they did a month ago. Then I checked the site and I saw Tv 51%. http://aligulac.com/reports. Seriously guys??? Trying to create the end of WOL all over again? Blizz is nice and gives a faster overseer and better vipers, but if you read the zerg comments then " it is not enough". Really, what is wrong with you guys? So sad that 1 unit forces zerg micro, and oooohh it has to go down ASAP! So sad You should actually try playing the game, it's pretty obvious to everyone that Terran reaches a point where the have so much bio and so many widow mines its impossible for zerg to get a cost efficient engagement, no one is saying the match up is un-winnable by any means, but most people acknowledge there are some issues with it. Percentages don't tell you shit about how the match up plays out. I'd like to see you micro against 10-15 widow mines and come out of it decently I play the game. I had to practice for 3 years to be able to get my micro up. I need to split like a madman. That's insanely hard. I need to multitask like a beast. I need to drop everywhere, while moving my army, burrowing in time, splitting my marines and actually targetting with my mines. Oh, and meanwhile I need to macro. Not hard enough? But you poor puppy need need to split his ling bling now? You can't 1a anymore like in WOL? How unacceptable! Let's ask for widowmine nerfs. And by the terran reaches so much 3-3 bio and mines, you should've moved away from muta ling bling. Your race is created for techswitches so please... And "percentages don't tell us shit"? That's easy. Then I claim that ultralisks and broodlords are too strong. Why? Because it feels that way. Nooo noo noo, don't show me stats, they don't count! My own feeling is what counts. See what I did there? You claim that something is strong, with 0 backup, just like you did in WOL. Blizzard listened in WOL, and the whole matchup went in zergs favour. Why? Because there was not a single problem with TvZ. If you change a matchup where there are no problems, then you create a problem. And so we went into 1 year of zerg domination. I dont think a Z equally lvl as a T has to do any less multitask so please cut the crap of u have to do so much, i dont know where u look at but clearly in the scene of pro SC2 atm the rate of Z is really low as low as some of the first day of WoL and every terran TvZ go bio-mine just like every Z at the end of WoL go broodlord/infestor so either there is not a good enough Z player at the same lvl as current top T players or simply there is a problem w/ the game and i go for the second one Zergs now need to work as hard as the terran. That's what I'm saying. You can't 1a anymore and you need to practice now. The freewin WOL days are OVER. And this IS the proscene: http://aligulac.com/reports. It says 51%. Thats BALANCED. So please, stop with your fiction. Bro. read this and say something. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance Bro. The numbers are 51%. Your balance claims are fiction. Bro. READ quoting from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance(Quote) Balance vs. Fairness Myth: If a player wins 50% of the time when playing against an equally skilled player, the game is balanced. Gimps and OP units don't necessarily affect the probability of victory. Consider a game similar to rock-paper-scissors that has one more option "pinky" which always loses when used. The game rock-paper-scissors-pinky is imbalanced because it has a "gimp". No player would ever use the "pinky". Rock-paper-scissors-pinky is a fair game but its units aren't well balanced (Quote) The game is fair. I never said the game itself is so broken as hell. what I said was one 'specific unit' is not balanced (not totally broken, but broken.) Ok. But pls let's think your point to the end. Widow mines are broken and too strong, so you want Blizzard to nerf them. Every terran builds his whole playstyle on widow mines (which are way too strong as mentioned) right now. Yet winrates are very stable around 50% (below top WCS Premier). So now one question: What do you think will happen in the matchup, if Blizzard follows your wish and nerfs widow mines?
They will play Bio/Tank again. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, imo. WM just create these weird games where the Terran just constantly rallys his units to the Zerg's base. They were entertaining at first, but I'd still prefer Bio/Tank. I wouldn'teven mind if they buffed Tanks while nerfing Widow Mines.
I thought Widow Mines were supposed to be a defensive unit. Dunno if I missunderstood the idea behind the unit :-P
I still don't like the idea of WM being better in almost every regard compared to Siege Tanks - and Tanks require a Techlab :-?
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On August 13 2013 19:39 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 18:58 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:54 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:20 double1185 wrote:On August 13 2013 18:06 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:02 MattD wrote:On August 13 2013 17:56 Snowbear wrote:I'm getting SICK of all these zergs acting like TvZ is TERRAN FAVOURED. Stop that. Seriously. Check out the GM ladder and you will notice how zergs are doing BETTER against terrans than terrans are doing against zerg. Yes, some zergs are losing in tournaments. But god forbid that the terrans they lose to are just better! I also wondered why those zergs don't constantly link aligulac reports, like they did a month ago. Then I checked the site and I saw TvZ 51%. http://aligulac.com/reports. Seriously guys??? Trying to create the end of WOL all over again? Blizz is nice and gives a faster overseer and better vipers, but if you read the zerg comments then " it is not enough". Really, what is wrong with you guys? So sad that 1 unit forces zerg micro, and oooohh it has to go down ASAP! So sad You should actually try playing the game, it's pretty obvious to everyone that Terran reaches a point where the have so much bio and so many widow mines its impossible for zerg to get a cost efficient engagement, no one is saying the match up is un-winnable by any means, but most people acknowledge there are some issues with it. Percentages don't tell you shit about how the match up plays out. I'd like to see you micro against 10-15 widow mines and come out of it decently I play the game. I had to practice for 3 years to be able to get my micro up. I need to split like a madman. That's insanely hard. I need to multitask like a beast. I need to drop everywhere, while moving my army, burrowing in time, splitting my marines and actually targetting with my mines. Oh, and meanwhile I need to macro. Not hard enough? But you poor puppy need need to split his ling bling now? You can't 1a anymore like in WOL? How unacceptable! Let's ask for widowmine nerfs. And by the terran reaches so much 3-3 bio and mines, you should've moved away from muta ling bling. Your race is created for techswitches so please... And "percentages don't tell us shit"? That's easy. Then I claim that ultralisks and broodlords are too strong. Why? Because it feels that way. Nooo noo noo, don't show me stats, they don't count! My own feeling is what counts. See what I did there? You claim that something is strong, with 0 backup, just like you did in WOL. Blizzard listened in WOL, and the whole matchup went in zergs favour. Why? Because there was not a single problem with TvZ. If you change a matchup where there are no problems, then you create a problem. And so we went into 1 year of zerg domination. I dont think a Z equally lvl as a T has to do any less multitask so please cut the crap of u have to do so much, i dont know where u look at but clearly in the scene of pro SC2 atm the rate of Z is really low as low as some of the first day of WoL and every terran TvZ go bio-mine just like every Z at the end of WoL go broodlord/infestor so either there is not a good enough Z player at the same lvl as current top T players or simply there is a problem w/ the game and i go for the second one Zergs now need to work as hard as the terran. That's what I'm saying. You can't 1a anymore and you need to practice now. The freewin WOL days are OVER. And this IS the proscene: http://aligulac.com/reports. It says 51%. Thats BALANCED. So please, stop with your fiction. Bro. read this and say something. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance Bro. The numbers are 51%. Your balance claims are fiction. Bro. READ quoting from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance(Quote) Balance vs. Fairness Myth: If a player wins 50% of the time when playing against an equally skilled player, the game is balanced. Gimps and OP units don't necessarily affect the probability of victory. Consider a game similar to rock-paper-scissors that has one more option "pinky" which always loses when used. The game rock-paper-scissors-pinky is imbalanced because it has a "gimp". No player would ever use the "pinky". Rock-paper-scissors-pinky is a fair game but its units aren't well balanced (Quote) The game is fair. I never said the game itself is so broken as hell. what I said was one 'specific unit' is not balanced (not totally broken, but broken.) Ok. But pls let's think your point to the end. Widow mines are broken and too strong, so you want Blizzard to nerf them. Every terran builds his whole playstyle on widow mines (which are way too strong as mentioned) right now. Yet winrates are very stable around 50% (below top WCS Premier). So now one question: What do you think will happen in the matchup, if Blizzard follows your wish and nerfs widow mines?
That's why we should BUFF TANK. Or something else that helps mech :D
I don't want to see MMMM vs Z like we've seen helldrop in TvT or winlordfestors vs T in Wol 
Edit: I didn't mean that I want mines nerfed to the ground. I want BOTH MMMM and mech VIABLE. :D
+ Show Spoiler +Oh well, @#$#@ SW ruined everything though
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Overseer buff:
Yes, because with the muta speed upgrade overseers can´t keep up with mutas anymore. It´s really annoying that you have to wait for 10 sec until your overseer has kept up. Without the overseer you can´t harrass a Terran, since most T will have some WMs in their mineral line. Or somewhere else.
Air+ground mech upgrade:
Well mech sucks, every change is a good change tbh. Perhaps we will learn more about what is wrong with mech.
Viper full energy spawn:
No, just nononononono. As a mainly zerg player I somehow don´t like this. If the Viper comes out very early, most of the time it is the game winning/saving move (my experience at plat-dia level). With the increased starting energy this would make the "Hahaha I have vipers now, whatcha gonna do now?" even stronger, which is worse in my opinion. Maximum 100 starting energy. I would like to see a change in blinding cloud though...
Overall, I don´t feel like any of these changes are needed.
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On August 13 2013 19:50 Big-t wrote:
Overseer buff:
Yes, because with the muta speed upgrade overseers can´t keep up with mutas anymore. It´s really annoying that you have to wait for 10 sec until your overseer has kept up. Without the overseer you can´t harrass a Terran, since most T will have some WMs in their mineral line. Or somewhere else.
Air+ground mech upgrade:
Well mech sucks, every change is a good change tbh. Perhaps we will learn more about what is wrong with mech.
Viper full energy spawn:
No, just nononononono. As a mainly zerg player I somehow don´t like this. If the Viper comes out very early, most of the time it is the game winning/saving move (my experience at plat-dia level). With the increased starting energy this would make the "Hahaha I have vipers now, whatcha gonna do now?" even stronger, which is worse in my opinion. Maximum 100 starting energy. I would like to see a change in blinding cloud though...
Overall, I don´t feel like any of these changes are needed.
Oh well, at least they know something is wrong :D
I will accept 1 and 2 but HELL NO 3.
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On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T). i think its T favored although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good
Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all.
Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time.
I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time.
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On August 13 2013 20:02 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T). i think its T favored although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all. Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time. I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time.
well thats just my opinion i have no proof to prove it otherwise ...
i think why zergs are complaining zvt .. is not the cost in transitioning towards hive tech .. but rather surviving terrans 2/2 towards 3/3 unlimited bio-mine push on the time zergs transition towards hive tech ..
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I dont get it, how much time has passed since the last patch?
Are protosses overperforming by much?
They always avoid being specific, its so sad
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On August 13 2013 19:43 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 19:39 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:58 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:54 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:20 double1185 wrote:On August 13 2013 18:06 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:02 MattD wrote:On August 13 2013 17:56 Snowbear wrote:I'm getting SICK of all these zergs acting like TvZ is TERRAN FAVOURED. Stop that. Seriously. Check out the GM ladder and you will notice how zergs are doing BETTER against terrans than terrans are doing against zerg. Yes, some zergs are losing in tournaments. But god forbid that the terrans they lose to are just better! I also wondered why those zergs don't constantly link aligulac reports, like they did a month ago. Then I checked the site and I saw Tv 51%. http://aligulac.com/reports. Seriously guys??? Trying to create the end of WOL all over again? Blizz is nice and gives a faster overseer and better vipers, but if you read the zerg comments then " it is not enough". Really, what is wrong with you guys? So sad that 1 unit forces zerg micro, and oooohh it has to go down ASAP! So sad You should actually try playing the game, it's pretty obvious to everyone that Terran reaches a point where the have so much bio and so many widow mines its impossible for zerg to get a cost efficient engagement, no one is saying the match up is un-winnable by any means, but most people acknowledge there are some issues with it. Percentages don't tell you shit about how the match up plays out. I'd like to see you micro against 10-15 widow mines and come out of it decently I play the game. I had to practice for 3 years to be able to get my micro up. I need to split like a madman. That's insanely hard. I need to multitask like a beast. I need to drop everywhere, while moving my army, burrowing in time, splitting my marines and actually targetting with my mines. Oh, and meanwhile I need to macro. Not hard enough? But you poor puppy need need to split his ling bling now? You can't 1a anymore like in WOL? How unacceptable! Let's ask for widowmine nerfs. And by the terran reaches so much 3-3 bio and mines, you should've moved away from muta ling bling. Your race is created for techswitches so please... And "percentages don't tell us shit"? That's easy. Then I claim that ultralisks and broodlords are too strong. Why? Because it feels that way. Nooo noo noo, don't show me stats, they don't count! My own feeling is what counts. See what I did there? You claim that something is strong, with 0 backup, just like you did in WOL. Blizzard listened in WOL, and the whole matchup went in zergs favour. Why? Because there was not a single problem with TvZ. If you change a matchup where there are no problems, then you create a problem. And so we went into 1 year of zerg domination. I dont think a Z equally lvl as a T has to do any less multitask so please cut the crap of u have to do so much, i dont know where u look at but clearly in the scene of pro SC2 atm the rate of Z is really low as low as some of the first day of WoL and every terran TvZ go bio-mine just like every Z at the end of WoL go broodlord/infestor so either there is not a good enough Z player at the same lvl as current top T players or simply there is a problem w/ the game and i go for the second one Zergs now need to work as hard as the terran. That's what I'm saying. You can't 1a anymore and you need to practice now. The freewin WOL days are OVER. And this IS the proscene: http://aligulac.com/reports. It says 51%. Thats BALANCED. So please, stop with your fiction. Bro. read this and say something. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance Bro. The numbers are 51%. Your balance claims are fiction. Bro. READ quoting from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance(Quote) Balance vs. Fairness Myth: If a player wins 50% of the time when playing against an equally skilled player, the game is balanced. Gimps and OP units don't necessarily affect the probability of victory. Consider a game similar to rock-paper-scissors that has one more option "pinky" which always loses when used. The game rock-paper-scissors-pinky is imbalanced because it has a "gimp". No player would ever use the "pinky". Rock-paper-scissors-pinky is a fair game but its units aren't well balanced (Quote) The game is fair. I never said the game itself is so broken as hell. what I said was one 'specific unit' is not balanced (not totally broken, but broken.) Ok. But pls let's think your point to the end. Widow mines are broken and too strong, so you want Blizzard to nerf them. Every terran builds his whole playstyle on widow mines (which are way too strong as mentioned) right now. Yet winrates are very stable around 50% (below top WCS Premier). So now one question: What do you think will happen in the matchup, if Blizzard follows your wish and nerfs widow mines? They will play Bio/Tank again. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, imo. WM just create these weird games where the Terran just constantly rallys his units to the Zerg's base. They were entertaining at first, but I'd still prefer Bio/Tank. I wouldn'teven mind if they buffed Tanks while nerfing Widow Mines. I thought Widow Mines were supposed to be a defensive unit. Dunno if I missunderstood the idea behind the unit :-P I still don't like the idea of WM being better in almost every regard compared to Siege Tanks - and Tanks require a Techlab :-?
The problem isn't that the Widow Mine is too strong, the problem is that the Siege Tank is too weak and too expensive to be effective at its intended purpose.
Siege Tanks don't hit hard enough to create effective map control for the Terran.
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On August 13 2013 20:09 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 19:43 Swisslink wrote:On August 13 2013 19:39 TeeTS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:58 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:54 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On August 13 2013 18:42 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:20 double1185 wrote:On August 13 2013 18:06 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 18:02 MattD wrote:
[quote]
You should actually try playing the game, it's pretty obvious to everyone that Terran reaches a point where the have so much bio and so many widow mines its impossible for zerg to get a cost efficient engagement, no one is saying the match up is un-winnable by any means, but most people acknowledge there are some issues with it. Percentages don't tell you shit about how the match up plays out.
I'd like to see you micro against 10-15 widow mines and come out of it decently I play the game. I had to practice for 3 years to be able to get my micro up. I need to split like a madman. That's insanely hard. I need to multitask like a beast. I need to drop everywhere, while moving my army, burrowing in time, splitting my marines and actually targetting with my mines. Oh, and meanwhile I need to macro. Not hard enough? But you poor puppy need need to split his ling bling now? You can't 1a anymore like in WOL? How unacceptable! Let's ask for widowmine nerfs. And by the terran reaches so much 3-3 bio and mines, you should've moved away from muta ling bling. Your race is created for techswitches so please... And "percentages don't tell us shit"? That's easy. Then I claim that ultralisks and broodlords are too strong. Why? Because it feels that way. Nooo noo noo, don't show me stats, they don't count! My own feeling is what counts. See what I did there? You claim that something is strong, with 0 backup, just like you did in WOL. Blizzard listened in WOL, and the whole matchup went in zergs favour. Why? Because there was not a single problem with TvZ. If you change a matchup where there are no problems, then you create a problem. And so we went into 1 year of zerg domination. I dont think a Z equally lvl as a T has to do any less multitask so please cut the crap of u have to do so much, i dont know where u look at but clearly in the scene of pro SC2 atm the rate of Z is really low as low as some of the first day of WoL and every terran TvZ go bio-mine just like every Z at the end of WoL go broodlord/infestor so either there is not a good enough Z player at the same lvl as current top T players or simply there is a problem w/ the game and i go for the second one Zergs now need to work as hard as the terran. That's what I'm saying. You can't 1a anymore and you need to practice now. The freewin WOL days are OVER. And this IS the proscene: http://aligulac.com/reports. It says 51%. Thats BALANCED. So please, stop with your fiction. Bro. read this and say something. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance Bro. The numbers are 51%. Your balance claims are fiction. Bro. READ quoting from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Balance(Quote) Balance vs. Fairness Myth: If a player wins 50% of the time when playing against an equally skilled player, the game is balanced. Gimps and OP units don't necessarily affect the probability of victory. Consider a game similar to rock-paper-scissors that has one more option "pinky" which always loses when used. The game rock-paper-scissors-pinky is imbalanced because it has a "gimp". No player would ever use the "pinky". Rock-paper-scissors-pinky is a fair game but its units aren't well balanced (Quote) The game is fair. I never said the game itself is so broken as hell. what I said was one 'specific unit' is not balanced (not totally broken, but broken.) Ok. But pls let's think your point to the end. Widow mines are broken and too strong, so you want Blizzard to nerf them. Every terran builds his whole playstyle on widow mines (which are way too strong as mentioned) right now. Yet winrates are very stable around 50% (below top WCS Premier). So now one question: What do you think will happen in the matchup, if Blizzard follows your wish and nerfs widow mines? They will play Bio/Tank again. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, imo. WM just create these weird games where the Terran just constantly rallys his units to the Zerg's base. They were entertaining at first, but I'd still prefer Bio/Tank. I wouldn'teven mind if they buffed Tanks while nerfing Widow Mines. I thought Widow Mines were supposed to be a defensive unit. Dunno if I missunderstood the idea behind the unit :-P I still don't like the idea of WM being better in almost every regard compared to Siege Tanks - and Tanks require a Techlab :-? The problem isn't that the Widow Mine is too strong, the problem is that the Siege Tank is too weak and too expensive to be effective at its intended purpose. Siege Tanks don't hit hard enough to create effective map control for the Terran.
Siege Tanks are still pretty good units it's that, as someone else said, Mines are just so very valuable in many situations.
My biggest qualm with the mine might be how it effectively shuts down mutalisk harassment. Turrets and Thors were already good defenses against muta but now their offensive role has been mostly nullified due to the nature of mines.
Still, I think people backing up ZvT is fine should show a game where a Zerg outplays a T in a macro game and explain to us what Z did right in that game. vods preferably no?
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On August 13 2013 20:02 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T). i think its T favored although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all. Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time. I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time.
You say here exactly the problem what I see for 1-2months. As many people said, Terrans attacks Zerg permanently that zerg has to build units permanently so that zerg hasnt enough minerals and gas for hive. This is the goal from Terran (no hive), because this is the easiest way to win vs zerg.
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On August 13 2013 20:02 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 19:34 goody153 wrote:On August 13 2013 19:26 Faust852 wrote:
Meh @people saying that T is favor against Z only based on Polt and Innovation's performances. It's been 3 lists already on Aligulac that zerg is a little bit ahead in stats (around 48% for T). i think its T favored although innovations performance is not an argument to tvz imbalance .. innovation is plainly broken .. seriously the guys just too good Not if you look at aligulac, it's been 1 month that zerg is ahead, by a very thin margin, not enough to consider it imbalanced at all. Anyway, people keep complaining about the impossibility to reach Hive tech, but all in all, it only cost 300 gas, I don't think it affect that much the mutaball to have 3 delayed mutas for a short period of time. I don't know, as a Terran player, when I play zergs that keep playing with t2 unit (gling ban mutas, not roach hydra), I win quite convincingly but if the zerg get an early hive (14-15min), i became quite hard for me to deal with ultralisk, especially if i'm not aware of it and I don't have enough marauders in time.
Hm... I think a 14-15 Hive doesn't really help. Especially in terms of drop defense such an early Hive seems kinda bad. I don't exactly know when I normally build my Hive, because I just do it as soon as I have the time and ressources to do it, but I think a REALLY early one sacrifies too much mobility.
It might work because of the "surprise *BAM* Ultralisks!", but if the Terran just starts dropping everywhere I think the Zerg dies.
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Siege tanks are just terribad in tvz, marine tank armies get overrun so easily. Zerg would become incredibly favored again with a plain nerf to the mine and no buff to the tank. And the new muta's make picking off tank quite easy to.
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On August 13 2013 20:15 PanzerElite wrote:
Siege tanks are just terribad in tvz, marine tank armies get overrun so easily. Zerg would become incredibly favored again with a plain nerf to the mine and no buff to the tank. And the new muta's make picking off tank quite easy to.
And don't forget SH and vipers! :D
1000+ for tank (or mech) buff!
Edit: I have made terrible mispelling by mixing WM and SH before :p
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On August 13 2013 18:41 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 17:56 Snowbear wrote:I'm getting SICK of all these zergs acting like TvZ is TERRAN FAVOURED. Stop that. Seriously. Check out the GM ladder and you will notice how zergs are doing BETTER against terrans than terrans are doing against zerg. Yes, some zergs are losing in tournaments. But god forbid that the terrans they lose to are just better! I also wondered why those zergs don't constantly link aligulac reports, like they did a month ago. Then I checked the site and I saw TvZ 51%. http://aligulac.com/reports. Seriously guys??? Trying to create the end of WOL all over again? Blizz is nice and gives a faster overseer and better vipers, but if you read the zerg comments then " it is not enough". Really, what is wrong with you guys? So sad that 1 unit forces zerg micro, and oooohh it has to go down ASAP! So sad Go ask any highmaster - grandmaster terran about his TvZ. A lot of them will tell you the story about TvZ being their worst matchup, or as good as their other. But their best matchup? No. You see absolutely no issues in TvZ? I mean, it's absolutely ok that Zerg has to Roach/Bane all in every game unless they're just miles ahead skillwise? As soon as the Terran reaches 3/3, the Zerg is basically dead, almost every single professional tournament in the last few month proves that point. If there isn't a huge skill difference between the players with the Zerg being the better one (Scarlett vs alive as an example) Zerg will barely win a map past the 15min mark. That's simply a fact and there has been more than enough prove for it lately. You seem to forget a few things, because you're obviously terribly biased towards Terran: 1. You can micro against Banelings, right. But you shouldn't really compare them to Widow Mines. In contrast to banelings, Widow Mines are invisible and no one's able to split once the widow mine shot is on the way. Because... You know... The shot moves kinda fast. And if there are about 15 widow mines burrowed you won't ever get a good engagement, because they are EVERYWHERE! 2. Zerg should tech switch? How many pro-games ZvT have you seen lately? The Zerg normally needs ALL his larva to stay alive while the Terran is on 2/2. And: Tech Switches before Hive Tech don't really help - and normally it's over once the Zerg reaches Hive Tech, because the Terran already got 3/3 before any Ultralisks are out. The Zerg is in a purely defensive position, you can't expect them to be able to tech switch in such a situation, because it's not really possible if the Terran plays the style properly. Even for Zerg a tech switch needs some time - and you'll never get this time. 3. Well... Ask the top Zerg how they think about ZvT... They probably won't like it, simply because... Who likes to lose all the time? :-) Nobody wants Late WoL back, because free wins in late game are boring - You seem to feel different if its the Terran who's unstoppable as soon as 3/3 hits. And btw: it's not too much fun to play if you have to defend all game long, never even leaving the 4th base because you need every single unit to stay alive. Even if you completely ignore the facts (-> Balance issues), the gameplay for Zerg just sucks right now in ZvT and somehow has to be changed.
so u say u cant win against a terran after 15 mins? well the problem is surely more mid game based not lategame (after 15 mins). so terran got an edge in mid game in TvZ and TvP. Terran has no chance in lategame TvP if he dont get a good fighting position. i still see TvZ after 15 mins Zerg favoured. ok zerg can get dropped and shit, but if that drops makes so much damage its because poor defense...
and i bet u werent arguing about the zerg position (lategame) in late wol, even though u act like now its so boring im pretty sure u got into late gmae zvt in wol all the time and getting all those "free wins". and now u start crying when terran got a better chance in mid game wich is the only phase in the game (except for tvt) where terran´s got an advantage...
ya maybe the widow mine is a bit to strong in mid game or to cost efficiency, but why its the question?
i remember a time when nobody could handle banelings... the answer was splitting units, and we still need to do itl, even though blizzard never even thought about marine splits... so ask urself whats the answer on being effeciency against widow mines now?! i can tell u splitting units helps alot...
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