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FT.aCt)Sony
United States1047 Posts
Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War. Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on). | ||
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
I also think there's a contradiction sometimes from what the community says it wants. There's nostalgia for all the modding and the noob friendly player base,something that plenty of games now offer. Then we also want something radically different (I think). | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On August 15 2013 05:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Fire the two lead game designs and actually bring on individuals who have experience within the community (IE Pros/retired pros/advocates for the game) to actually have a input and say in what happens with the game play. Bring back Blizzard Invitational that was held in Brood War. Get rid of the all at once battle and whoever pushes through win, make the game actually take some skill and require players to actually work instead of build basically one strategy and a move. (Flame me for this saying this statement, truly don't care about the community/game anymore in the current state with everything going on). I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree. 4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it". | ||
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FT.aCt)Sony
United States1047 Posts
On August 15 2013 05:29 Smackzilla wrote: I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying making the game harder would grow the scene? If so, I have to completely disagree. 4.5 million+ copies of SC2 that have sold, but the multi-player/esports scene is *much* smaller than that. I really doubt that's because all the owner's of SC2 said to themselves "Man, if only I had to work harder at this game, I'd still be playing it". I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally. | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
Emotions in esport The main thing that makes any sports big is the emotional connection people have to it. Either because the just sympathies/likes the player, or because the player represent them in some regard, nation/city etc. Then there is of course the minority that watches just because they like the sport in itself, but that is a super minority. Additionally it is an issue because it means that the basis for enjoying a game is to have great understanding of what is going on, which mean that the people that start watching the game will like it as they won’t get it. I know people like to argue against this, mainly because that the superior minority that enjoys the game just by itself are drawn to TL like flies to a lamp in the night, and thus people start to perceive it is as the norm. It is not, it is far from it and if you think that is a norm you are just plain wrong. So if establish that emotion is the basis of sport then SC2 have a big problem. First are 99% of all the players that win / gets top 4 all from the same country, even the same city. That means that emotional connect through national representation goes out the window for SC2 (big problem). Then it is also plain boring that the same country wins everything cause it prevents any national tension or rivalry. This problem is however even worse in SC2 due to Korean culture. First are Koreans almost nonexclusively monolingual Korean speaking, a language which extremely few people understand outside of Korea, thus making them unable to directly interact with an audience. The problem becomes more sever by the fact that Korean culture is honor driven and therefor teaches you to not express weakness in public and thus Koreans tend to be very introverted in public environments. So to sum it up, the same nation wins all the time, thus making geographical connection close to zero, because it is always the same country winning people cheer for the underdog (everyone else) but because it very rarely happens that the underdog wins does the audience constantly get disappointed in SC2, then the people that do win all the time cannot directly interact with the audiences and as they do win makes an effort to express as little emotion as possible. Probably an event producers worst nightmare. Koreans effect on this matter Now of course you can say that all this not new, and to some extent it is not, but over the last year it became significantly worse. The main issue is KESPA. Korea went in an instant from having 90-95 out of the 100 best players in the world, which already was absurdly dominant, to have 190-195 out the best 200. The combination of WCS not being region locked and the competition being super strong in Korea removed any reason for Koreans to compete in the Korean region, except glory. Thus causing a flooding of all the other scenes. Further is SC2 almost entirely revolving around WCS, meaning that there is few other places to go. Then there is a thing regarding Korean dominance of which I am uncertain what is cause and effect but it is a matter a fact that foreigners are starting to drop off. Stephano was the foreign hope for the longest time, if he had not been in the equation the Korea dominace would have been twice as severe during 2011-2012 were Stephano earned more prize money than any other SC2 player. The list keeps going, Idra, xlord, Jinro, Feast and oognis for instance have retired while other former carriers of foreign hope such as Huk and Sen (+Thorzain?) are fairly irrelevant. So while Korea got twice as strong has the foreign scene declined. So where Koreans before used to almost win everything before do they actually win everything now. Now I realize that this was the case in BW but there are many difference now to then. First BW was a lot bigger in Korea and could therefor rely on Korea to much larger extent. Reversely is the foreign audience the driving force of SC2, it is what makes SC2 as an esport function. Third is the amount people that the game is supporting, professional players, casters, hosts, event producers and so on many times more now. Meaning that even if we could scale it down to the microcosm that was BW it is still going to put the majority of the people out of job. So to summarize, we need to region lock WCS. From a competitive point of view it is wrong, but for viability of SC2 as a major esport it is a necessary. The flooding of Koreans to the other regions dissociates the audience with the players and also effect players in the way that it becomes harder and harder to justify playing SC2 as a full time due to limited chances of earning money. I think however you should be allowed to play were you live as it is not the few players like Polt, Demuslim and ForGG that is creating the issue. This should not be a matter of principles, it is a matter of building a system that SC2 as viable esport can prevail in. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 15 2013 06:01 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally. Don't think that's what Smackzilla was getting at. If Blizzard did what you said, they would most definitely have a better game. But better games don't necessarily have a big scene. It's simplicity that sells these days; what's shallow, shiny and instantly gratifying. Like don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you're saying as a big old schooler myself (although not an ex-pro by any means) but at the same time you have to understand that in the current state of gaming that would only serve to further decrease SC2's playerbase. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On August 15 2013 06:01 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally. So do you think *your* experience and that of pro gamers is representative of gamers at large? Again, the topic here is how to grow the SC2 scene, and my hunch is that your particular frustration with SC2 has very little to do with a solution for growing the SC2 player base or tournament viewership. I really doubt that *most people* quit SC2 or never got into multi-player and esports because SC2 was too dumbed down or was too easy to play. Personally, I think that if you can improve the SC2 scene, the solution will have nothing to do with hardcore play or making the game harder. I think that direction would probably hurt more than it helps. I think free-to-play multi-player would help more. Also, perhaps giving an account a ladder rating for each race might encourage less-stressful and more-casual off-racing. Maybe people would explore the game more since there's less of a barrier to doing so. That said, I still don't think SC2 will be the biggest esport. Even if SC2 is not harder than BW, it's less casual-friendly than its competitors. Its more stressful than its competitors. That is what will limit the scenes size. Appeal to hardcore BW fans will have nothing to do with it. | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
Games like LoL are popular in esports because of the f2p model instead of paying $40 or whatever, there are 10 players in a match to draw viewers opposed to 2, and it's a fairly simple game to understand with a lot of different possible variations in how a game can go with so many heroes and players. Whine all you want about Blizzard being a failure, Koreans, etc. but there aren't many people who want to spend all their time watching 3 races duke it out for more than a week or two before the novelty wears off. It's not like any RTS has ever been relatively popular in the world. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 15 2013 06:01 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: I come from 12 years of sc1 as opposed to 3.5 years in sc2 and I enjoyed Sc1 much more than Sc2. Reason being because it actually took alot of dedication and skill to be good and continue to stay at top performance. Guarantee that if they reverted the style of gameplay from how it is now to SC1 you would not see half of the crap you see now. Its been said on numerous occasions by numerous bw pros and competitors that sc2 is much more dumbed down and requires alot less skill and its frustrating to them as it is myself. Personally, I believe Blizzard made the game much more dumbed down and less skill intensive just for money value so they can sell more. But as I said thats just my opinion personally. So you want the Starcraft to go back to BW where only one country had a scene and the rest of the world pretty much ignored it as an esport? You want to go back to the BW days where WC3 was the esport played by foreigners and starcraft was the esport played by Korea? You want to go back to time when the world played other games than Starcraft? Please, enlighten us. Show us how this "grows" the scene? | ||
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KhaliWear
Canada159 Posts
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
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KhaliWear
Canada159 Posts
On August 15 2013 09:17 tshi wrote: Maybe do the opposite of what brood war did? I mean, that scene is pretty dead, so maybe there's something to learn from that? of course the scene is dead with your attitude my American Comrade. Just put that U.S.A. patriotism into the game  Starcraft is user grown not by the parent company! | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
On August 15 2013 09:19 KhaliWear wrote: of course the scene is dead with your attitude my American Comrade. Just put that U.S.A. patriotism into the game Starcraft is user grown not by the parent company!It's hard when the parent company is fucking up so bad, haha. I like that joke someone made (iforget who) where they were like "I'll become Blizzard's new PR guy now that ROB Simpson was gone, 'ill just say "We understand and we are working on solving this problem" to everything that happens. oh it was nony, i think | ||
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KhaliWear
Canada159 Posts
On August 15 2013 09:49 tshi wrote: It's hard when the parent company is fucking up so bad, haha. I like that joke someone made (iforget who) where they were like "I'll become Blizzard's new PR guy now that ROB Simpson was gone, 'ill just say "We understand and we are working on solving this problem" to everything that happens. oh it was nony, i think Rep what you love, nothing else will matter. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 15 2013 08:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: So you want the Starcraft to go back to BW where only one country had a scene and the rest of the world pretty much ignored it as an esport? You want to go back to the BW days where WC3 was the esport played by foreigners and starcraft was the esport played by Korea? You want to go back to time when the world played other games than Starcraft? Please, enlighten us. Show us how this "grows" the scene? Did he say those things? No he didnt why are you so negative? i have no idea Lets say sc2 was hard like broodwar, you actually believe only koreans would be good? We have teamhouses outside of korea, the game is more streamlined. Its a much bigger game outside of korea, that means more people outside of korea will play. People will try to earn a living outside of korea, more so than the total people who tried that in broodwar I persnally believe people would have a more fun time playing the game. You practice, you get better, and you feel it. And it feels great, you wanna play more. Make a deathball with tight defence and than literally amove wouldnt work at all. Someone wins a fight, and the game is far from over. Even lowlevels would have a funnier time with a game like that . They will feel imrpovement even if they are bronze, and no worry to build up your bases for 10min and than amoveattack and game is over It can still be unlimited unit selection, have all your macrobuilding in one hotkey, automining, better unit pathing. Those things are not what makes a game "hardcore". A skillfull game that lets both sides at all time show their skill and with that i wanna mention forcefield. It lets protoss show their skill but their opponent not as much. Thats not good | ||
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KhaliWear
Canada159 Posts
On August 15 2013 10:34 Foxxan wrote: Did he say those things? No he didnt why are you so negative? i have no idea Lets say sc2 was hard like broodwar, you actually believe only koreans would be good? We have teamhouses outside of korea, the game is more streamlined. Its a much bigger game outside of korea, that means more people outside of korea will play. People will try to earn a living outside of korea, more so than the total people who tried that in broodwar I persnally believe people would have a more fun time playing the game. You practice, you get better, and you feel it. And it feels great, you wanna play more. Make a deathball with tight defence and than literally amove wouldnt work at all. Someone wins a fight, and the game is far from over. Even lowlevels would have a funnier time with a game like that . They will feel imrpovement even if they are bronze, and no worry to build up your bases for 10min and than amoveattack and game is over It can still be unlimited unit selection, have all your macrobuilding in one hotkey, automining, better unit pathing. Those things are not what makes a game "hardcore". A skillfull game that lets both sides at all time show their skill and with that i wanna mention forcefield. It lets protoss show their skill but their opponent not as much. Thats not good Preach! | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
-Remove Warpgate -Fix Protoss -Slow the game speed down. Battles should not end in 4 seconds; players should feel involved even when losing a battle. -Remove "Blizzard time" in-game clock and give us real time like BW. -Give us proper high ground advantage. -Fix tanks The reason SC2 isn't "as interesting" isn't because of mechanical difficulty (which hardly exists) it's because the game-play is based around death ball syndrome; just working on the issues noted above (that have been complained about for 3 years) would make the game a lot more interesting to play. Basically a lot of the things that made BW so fun have been neglected by the SC2 team since release out of a stubborn sense of pride (remember these minds are the ones behind Warpgate which is probably the single most poorly designed thing in the history of Starcraft gameplay). These kind of gameplay fixes combined with continued improvements (it shouldn't take like 3 days to get max level. wtf?) to battle.net 2.0 (HotS was a strong start in that direction) could make SC2 the game it should've been at release. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 15 2013 10:34 Foxxan wrote: Did he say those things? No he didnt why are you so negative? i have no idea Lets say sc2 was hard like broodwar, you actually believe only koreans would be good? We have teamhouses outside of korea, the game is more streamlined. Its a much bigger game outside of korea, that means more people outside of korea will play. People will try to earn a living outside of korea, more so than the total people who tried that in broodwar I persnally believe people would have a more fun time playing the game. You practice, you get better, and you feel it. And it feels great, you wanna play more. Make a deathball with tight defence and than literally amove wouldnt work at all. Someone wins a fight, and the game is far from over. Even lowlevels would have a funnier time with a game like that . They will feel imrpovement even if they are bronze, and no worry to build up your bases for 10min and than amoveattack and game is over It can still be unlimited unit selection, have all your macrobuilding in one hotkey, automining, better unit pathing. Those things are not what makes a game "hardcore". A skillfull game that lets both sides at all time show their skill and with that i wanna mention forcefield. It lets protoss show their skill but their opponent not as much. Thats not good Because when BW with its difficulty was around, the foreign scene instead supported the less mechanically demanding WC3 And when SC2 got big, the foreign scene shifted to the less mechanically demanding MOBA games. The people who are upset that they are bronze will be upset whether they play BW, SC2, or tic-tac-toe. The people who only play casually and don't 1v1 competitively--they will go to whatever is the most casual friendly game. It has all happened before, and it will all happen again. I'm not being negative, I'm being pragmatic. In a thread that is attempting to discuss how to increase participation and viewership of the game, the last thing we need is to talk about making it MORE difficult for people to get good at it. Why? Because what's killing starcraft is not how much fewer clicks it takes to move an army. What's killing starcraft is not whether or not units are clumped or not. The reason SC2 is behind in comparison to MOBA games is that more people play MOBA games than they play SC2. Why? Because it is less mechanically difficult to play a MOBA game. You have mouse clicks and 4-10 buttons. That's it. There are less buttons to worry about, less tedious tasks to manage, and less blame being doled on your failures. MOBA games are not easy, and the upper echelons of its competitions will shred any BW/SC2 player thinking otherwise. But if you're a sub-bronze casual that logs in for 15-20 minutes a week, you can still play a MOBA game and feel like you're getting tasks done. Can't kill the enemy players? Kill minions. Dying all the time? Earning gold anyway--can still buy items. 3v1 on one of the lanes? Kill monsters in the jungle. etc... You can, as a noob, literally forget complete aspects of the game and still be fighting for half an hour to an hour. You can fight bots because you're playing with 4 other crappy players and you don't feel alone. You know something League of Legends have over SC2 that is very relevant? Government support. The US is willing to help LoL players with their Visas because the US Government thinks they're legit enough as a sport. Why? Because they have a big enough base for the US government to take them seriously. Now we can easily go down the road of "harder game makes each successful blah blah blah worth it!" "people will feel like they earn their wins" etc... But do you honestly feel that the gold player who is sick of losing 50% of his games no matter how hard he tries would feel better if the game was harder to play? Here's the truth; the difficulty of the game does not matter. Chess isn't popular because it is hard, it is popular because people enjoy playing it. Futbol is not popular because it is hard, it is popular because people enjoy playing it. When the scene starts talking about players more than it talks about race, balance, and mechanics, only then can a scene grow. | ||
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
On August 10 2013 00:19 Foxxan wrote: The battle can end in an instant and its over. THe deathball syndrome, which makes it really hard to 1) Get units outside the deathball to do some small battle/harassment Get 3base, saturat, now macro up Thats the standard thing which is terrible terrible terrible I think this is the reason it hasn't, at least, kept more it's original player base. This game, as awesome as it is, doesn't seem committed to true-RTS play. There aren't small skirmishes anymore; that was Starcraft, or so I was thinking. (I was terrible at BW). | ||
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