EPTInterview of David Kim about Balance in IEM - Page 11
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Usernameffs
Sweden107 Posts
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QNdie
Poland210 Posts
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On July 26 2013 20:34 Sapphire.lux wrote: I'm not a moba fan but from what i understand Valve made Dota 2 just a better version of Dota 1, without unnecessary changes or trying to reinvent the wheal, so people that loved Dota 1 for the most part love Dota 2. SC2 is a far cry from BW from most points of view save game engine. I mean, even on the accesability aspect Dota 2 is far better then Dota 1 while SC2 is miles behind BW (battlenet2.0, 3 expansions, etc). It is my impression that Browder and co. just failed to learn and replicate the parts that made BW such a great game. Whether due to arrogance or incompetence doesn't matter, but Valve proved you can do right by a classic game. If I ever write an article about consumers narrow perspective, I'm going to quote you. What Valve did is : Take free game and monetize it. Nothing more, nothing less. BroodWar never got any kind of traction in EU and NA - contrary to DotA - so it would have been foolish to take BroodWar, admittedly a good game, and try to monetize it because the main consumer base was too limited. Instead Blizzard made a new game, a good game despite some flaws - something BW was exempt either - and tried to promote it on a bigger scale. And they succeeded that's why the population of TL got much bigger. PS : The rest of your ramblings about BW being a superior game would be best if it was kept in the appropriate forum. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On July 26 2013 20:45 Otolia wrote: If I ever write an article about consumers narrow perspective, I'm going to quote you. What Valve did is : Take free game and monetize it. Nothing more, nothing less. BroodWar never got any kind of traction in EU and NA - contrary to DotA - so it would have been foolish to take BroodWar, admittedly a good game, and try to monetize it because the main consumer base was too limited. Instead Blizzard made a new game, a good game despite some flaws - something BW was exempt either - and tried to promote it on a bigger scale. And they succeeded that's why the population of TL got much bigger. PS : The rest of your ramblings about BW being a superior game would be best if it was kept in the appropriate forum. The population got bigger because it was a new starcraft game. It would have to be Diablo 3 level underwhelming to not add people to the community. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On July 26 2013 20:41 saddaromma wrote: They don't look arrogant at all. I think they're more of CoD or Mass Effect type of developers, who are good for feeding average gamers but not good for true starcraft fans. Or Command & Conquer :p By arrogant i meant that they refused to learn from BW and listen to player and fan feedback. | ||
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Usernameffs
Sweden107 Posts
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On July 26 2013 20:45 Otolia wrote: If I ever write an article about consumers narrow perspective, I'm going to quote you. What Valve did is : Take free game and monetize it. Nothing more, nothing less. BroodWar never got any kind of traction in EU and NA - contrary to DotA - so it would have been foolish to take BroodWar, admittedly a good game, and try to monetize it because the main consumer base was too limited. Instead Blizzard made a new game, a good game despite some flaws - something BW was exempt either - and tried to promote it on a bigger scale. And they succeeded that's why the population of TL got much bigger. PS : The rest of your ramblings about BW being a superior game would be best if it was kept in the appropriate forum. I think TL grew partly due to general Internet and online gaming growth. also, I think TL would be much much bigger if sc2 was a better game. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On July 26 2013 20:45 Otolia wrote: If I ever write an article about consumers narrow perspective, I'm going to quote you. What Valve did is : Take free game and monetize it. Nothing more, nothing less. BroodWar never got any kind of traction in EU and NA - contrary to DotA - so it would have been foolish to take BroodWar, admittedly a good game, and try to monetize it because the main consumer base was too limited. Instead Blizzard made a new game, a good game despite some flaws - something BW was exempt either - and tried to promote it on a bigger scale. And they succeeded that's why the population of TL got much bigger. PS : The rest of your ramblings about BW being a superior game would be best if it was kept in the appropriate forum. Who cares about the size of the community in comparison to the quality of the game? | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
Q: Since the launch of SC2 WOL, Protoss hasn't gotten a lot of championships. How do you see this? Is this because of balance? David Kim: Overall, Protoss's performance is not weak. In a lot of tournament's Ro32, Protoss has a stable and high presence. This is not a problem of SC2. It seems like there are fewer top Protoss players out there, at least fewer than Terran and Zerg. So I think we need to look for more new top Protoss players, and then the situation will change. I found this part funny. It's like he obviously thinks the reason of why there aren't as many protoss champions is because they are fewer. Great answer. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On July 26 2013 20:45 Otolia wrote: If I ever write an article about consumers narrow perspective, I'm going to quote you. Ahh...thank you  What Valve did is : Take free game and monetize it. Nothing more, nothing less. You had to have WC3 to play the original Dota no? So it wasn't free. What Valve did was take a game and add, improve and make more accessible (free to play). The developers of the platform, Blizzard, were just to "narrow minded" to do this themselves. BroodWar never got any kind of traction in EU and NA The game that soled over 11 mil copies didn't get any traction? That's like double what WOL sold. People are still buying BW ffs. BroodWar, admittedly a good game, and try to monetize it because the main consumer base was too limited. Why make such comments if you can't be bothered to look at the figures? SC2 fanboy i know, but it's not an excuse. Instead Blizzard made a new game, a good game despite some flaws - something BW was exempt either - and tried to promote it on a bigger scale. They could have and should have build upon what BW did right instead of throwing most of it away and reinventing everything. Funny actually, after WOL they sort of understood that banelings were not really a replacement for lurkers, que in the SH; that mines did have a role, que in WM; takes them years to understand what their own game already did 10 years before. And they succeeded that's why the population of TL got much bigger. More people buy games now then 10, 15 years before. Diablo 3 outsold Diablo 2 even though it's much worse. Makes the BW selling numbers even more impressive. | ||
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Rascandrius
Denmark32 Posts
On July 26 2013 13:00 Kim Hyuna wrote: David Kim is an idiot. We already seen TOP protoss players playing inside KR. And almost zero success in taking one major title here in KR. Isn't  PartinG, Rain, First, MC etc top Protoss players? I don't see any NEW upcoming top protoss coming near.And, Stardust is playing against Foreigner and not TOP Z/T players from KR. And his win against JD is nothing HUGE because JD is known for his weakness in PvZ. What an idiot again. Isn't that what Protossers has been doing? It's either turtle up for one fucking push or 2 base all in. Oracle? It's a shit unit. Obviously he hates Protoss since WOL days. You forgot to mention JangBi | ||
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Luolis
Finland7165 Posts
On July 26 2013 13:43 Kim Hyuna wrote: Because of the fucking stim and step. As long as my medivac has energy and FREE MULE on my last mining base. EZ. Why do you not get temp banned for balance whine? | ||
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NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
On July 26 2013 19:59 Serpico wrote: Blizzard is past the point of ever wanting to change the design or fundamental playstyle of the game. They are at a place where they will only change a couple numbers around to ensure statistical balance. Massive change to really alter how races act will never happen, even with an expansion. Their vision is already set in stone and they're happy with it, it seems. DK had some awkward questions thrown at him, but his view of the game is completely sterile. As in, the feel and personality of the game is completely irrelevant to him, which is fine if you have someone to offset that attitude. I wonder if such a person exists in the upper echelon of the dev team. Well, why wouldn't big changes happen with expansion? They did that for Frozen Throne, and then rebalanced game again. It is totally feasible if they take their time with LotV beta . Question is do they want to do it. | ||
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Dirtyharry
Germany171 Posts
On July 26 2013 20:45 Otolia wrote: If I ever write an article about consumers narrow perspective, I'm going to quote you. What Valve did is : Take free game and monetize it. Nothing more, nothing less. BroodWar never got any kind of traction in EU and NA - contrary to DotA - so it would have been foolish to take BroodWar, admittedly a good game, and try to monetize it because the main consumer base was too limited. Instead Blizzard made a new game, a good game despite some flaws - something BW was exempt either - and tried to promote it on a bigger scale. And they succeeded that's why the population of TL got much bigger. PS : The rest of your ramblings about BW being a superior game would be best if it was kept in the appropriate forum. I think it's absolutly normal that people compare SC2 with SC:BW because it's the successor. If Blizzard wanted to avoid this, they should have give the game another name and other units. Today I watched IEM with Liquid'Hero, he should get an extra salary only for the way he plays Protoss. BW allows players really to shine and this is what SC2 should do also. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On July 26 2013 21:28 Luolis wrote: Why do you not get temp banned for balance whine? He already go temp banned. That's what the lockdown icon is there for. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26612 Posts
On July 26 2013 21:28 NightOfTheDead wrote: Well, why wouldn't big changes happen with expansion? They did that for Frozen Throne, and then rebalanced game again. It is totally feasible if they take their time with LotV beta . Question is do they want to do it. Good comparison, one I've made myself. Frozen Throne was a massive overhaul from Reign of Chaos, I mean if you didn't play WC3 it's hard to overstate quite how much changed. It's whether the will is there like you said. If anything I think they're too tied in to the idea of SC2 as an E-sport. David Kim mentioned for example not wanting to make changes that would throw too much in the air in terms of the pro players | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On July 26 2013 21:28 NightOfTheDead wrote: Well, why wouldn't big changes happen with expansion? They did that for Frozen Throne, and then rebalanced game again. It is totally feasible if they take their time with LotV beta . Question is do they want to do it. Chances are that they did experiment wtih a few changes in the HOTS alpha in the proces of trying to make mech viable. But, they realized that mech just wasn't gonna be fun with the sc2 mechancis, and since sc2 afterall is a pretty decent game, there was no realy point in trying to reinvent everything. That would have been a big gamble, and would have been really hard to make work properly. I think they have done a lot of good stuff in HOTS, and while it isn't perfect by any means, spectator entertaiment value is improved. | ||
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marcjpb
Canada64 Posts
On July 26 2013 13:13 Poo wrote: what. why? He just started the interview off saying zerg has an advantage statistically already. Your missing the point. If the whole purpose of an unit is to do Action A and fail to do so, what is the point of that unit ? This very similar to the banshee. In early HOTS, was too easy to counter, so no one made any. Now they buffed it by reducing his upgrade cost, and the banshee could serve is purpose again. And this change wasn't made because Terran were too weak early game or w/e it was just made because the banshee unit wasnt serving its purpose. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On July 26 2013 21:38 Wombat_NI wrote: Good comparison, one I've made myself. Frozen Throne was a massive overhaul from Reign of Chaos, I mean if you didn't play WC3 it's hard to overstate quite how much changed. It's whether the will is there like you said. If anything I think they're too tied in to the idea of SC2 as an E-sport. David Kim mentioned for example not wanting to make changes that would throw too much in the air in terms of the pro players I wander about that. I mean, should they make massive changes, i doubt pros would just all quit. If anything, lots of pros seem to want big changes to happen. Unfortunately i think it's more a case of maximizing profits through low investment. I hope i'm wrong and we will see the massive changes we want in LOTV, like death balls, economy, so on. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26612 Posts
On July 26 2013 21:48 marcjpb wrote: Your missing the point. If the whole purpose of an unit is to do Action A and fail to do so, what is the point of that unit ? This very similar to the banshee. In early HOTS, was too easy to counter, so no one made any. Now they buffed it by reducing his upgrade cost, and the banshee could serve is purpose again. And this change wasn't made because Terran were too weak early game or w/e it was just made because the banshee unit wasnt serving its purpose. The beauty of well-designed strategy games is when units are used outside of their designated roles and the roles the designers had in mind. Having that room to innovate is pretty important imo. Part of the problem in WoL for me was the over-patching that stopped interesting uses of units like Thors and Ghosts in favour of more homogenised gameplay, while other blatant problems were kept in for ages or are still there, like fungal and Collosus. The difference, fungal functioned as it was meant to, mass ghost snipe was something of an oversight. | ||
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