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On July 26 2013 21:51 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 21:48 marcjpb wrote:On July 26 2013 13:13 Poo wrote:On July 26 2013 12:53 larse wrote:This balance interview is done by Chinese media, S.163.com in IEM. I am translating this very fast right now. I will edit the grammar and such later on. Enjoy.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DqkUB1Y.jpg) . About new units, Swarm host. About viper, we are considering to buff it.
what. why? He just started the interview off saying zerg has an advantage statistically already. Your missing the point. If the whole purpose of an unit is to do Action A and fail to do so, what is the point of that unit ? This very similar to the banshee. In early HOTS, was too easy to counter, so no one made any. Now they buffed it by reducing his upgrade cost, and the banshee could serve is purpose again. And this change wasn't made because Terran were too weak early game or w/e it was just made because the banshee unit wasnt serving its purpose. The beauty of well-designed strategy games is when units are used outside of their designated roles and the roles the designers had in mind. Having that room to innovate is pretty important imo. Part of the problem in WoL for me was the over-patching that stopped interesting uses of units like Thors and Ghosts in favour of more homogenised gameplay, while other blatant problems were kept in for ages or are still there, like fungal and Collosus. The difference, fungal functioned as it was meant to, mass ghost snipe was something of an oversight.
I always felt snipe was going to be a problem the later the game went. If you watched the game with Demuslim last night, he had like 27 ghost by the end and they were unkillable with medivac support. With the old snipe, I don't know what zerg would have done against a mass of ghosts that big. It was a cool ability, but it was basic click for extra damage on your zerg unit of choice.
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On July 26 2013 13:00 Kim Hyuna wrote:David Kim is an idiot. Show nested quote +David Kim: Overall, Protoss is not weak. In a lot of Ro32, Protoss has a stable and high presence. This is not a problem of SC2. It seems like there are fewer top Protoss players out there, at least fewer than Terran and Zerg. So I think we need to look for more new top Protoss players, and then the situation will change. If the number is getting worse [for Protoss], then we will consider change some Protoss units. In addition, in Dreamhack, Stardust got the championship. WCS S1 NA had a lot of Protoss. These numbers make me relaxed. We already seen TOP protoss players playing inside KR. And almost zero success in taking one major title here in KR. Isn't  PartinG, Rain, First, MC etc top Protoss players? I don't see any NEW upcoming top protoss coming near. And, Stardust is playing against Foreigner and not TOP Z/T players from KR. And his win against JD is nothing HUGE because JD is known for his weakness in PvZ. What an idiot again. Show nested quote +David Kim: I think, in WOL, Protoss's strategy was too narrowed. Basically you only need to turtle up for a big army and then win with one push. But now the situation is different. We add oracle for harassment and change the warp prism's speed. These give more choices for Protoss players. I hope we can see more competitive games. Isn't that what Protossers has been doing? It's either turtle up for one fucking push or 2 base all in. Oracle? It's a shit unit. Obviously he hates Protoss since WOL days.
lol
protoss makes it to the finals
or 1 game from the finals
fuck it protoss UP
~logic~
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On July 26 2013 20:41 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 20:34 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 26 2013 20:21 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 20:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Why are people blaming DK on the state of Protoss, mech, design etc? Isn't he responsible mostly for balance? It's Dustin Terrible Terrible Go Play BW Browder that should get that sort of hate. Why do blame them for anything? They make themselves available. Thats why I like Valve and Icefrog. You can't yell at them, they don't ever take an interview. They just patch stuff and you deal with it. Oh man you got good with those heroes. Well fuck that, you will learn these guys now and like it. Don't like the changes, what? I can't hear you, to busy counting money It is my impression that Browder and co. just failed to learn and replicate the parts that made BW such a great game. Whether due to arrogance or incompetence doesn't matter, but Valve proved you can do right by a classic game. They don't look arrogant at all. I think they're more of CoD or Mass Effect type of developers, who are good for feeding average gamers but not good for true starcraft fans.
Designing a good "Starcraft game" isnt that hard ... really. You just have to START AT BW and then improve on that slowly and steadily. That isnt how they did it ... they just too a few core units and then built an entirely new thing around those and ended up with an ACTION FOCUSED game (emphasized by David Kim in his Interview with Apollo when he said that mech was "dull" and they didnt like the playstyle).
How can they NOT BE arrogant when they - David Kim - basically say "we will tell you how to play and because of this we wont make Siege Tank based mech viable anymore"? They should try their utmost to make EVERY unit which is in the game viable and let the players figure out the rest, but instead they "enforce" an action based playstyle and deliberately keep a more strategically focused playstyle less than viable.
How can they NOT BE arrogant when certain problems with the general game design have become obvious throughout WoL and they do add new units which make the situation even worse? The unit density is a problem, because it is the reason for the existence of critical numbers. For them that term is just another catch phrase to throw out in a discussion, but I would describe that as a huge problem instead due to the "boost in efficiency" you gain from reaching a critical number and thus "breaking the balance".
Arrogance includes the inability to admit mistakes and they made quite a lot of them which haunt the game as persistent problems and will continue to do so.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On July 26 2013 21:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 21:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 26 2013 21:48 marcjpb wrote:On July 26 2013 13:13 Poo wrote:On July 26 2013 12:53 larse wrote:This balance interview is done by Chinese media, S.163.com in IEM. I am translating this very fast right now. I will edit the grammar and such later on. Enjoy.. About new units, Swarm host. About viper, we are considering to buff it.
what. why? He just started the interview off saying zerg has an advantage statistically already. Your missing the point. If the whole purpose of an unit is to do Action A and fail to do so, what is the point of that unit ? This very similar to the banshee. In early HOTS, was too easy to counter, so no one made any. Now they buffed it by reducing his upgrade cost, and the banshee could serve is purpose again. And this change wasn't made because Terran were too weak early game or w/e it was just made because the banshee unit wasnt serving its purpose. The beauty of well-designed strategy games is when units are used outside of their designated roles and the roles the designers had in mind. Having that room to innovate is pretty important imo. Part of the problem in WoL for me was the over-patching that stopped interesting uses of units like Thors and Ghosts in favour of more homogenised gameplay, while other blatant problems were kept in for ages or are still there, like fungal and Collosus. The difference, fungal functioned as it was meant to, mass ghost snipe was something of an oversight. I always felt snipe was going to be a problem the later the game went. If you watched the game with Demuslim last night, he had like 27 ghost by the end and they were unkillable with medivac support. With the old snipe, I don't know what zerg would have done against a mass of ghosts that big. It was a cool ability, but it was basic click for extra damage on your zerg unit of choice.
Ghosts vP don't really rely on snipe in the same way, they are there for carpeting EMPs and are also pretty tanky. I mean, I watched those games too, Demuslim played them out well but they were proof if more was needed that Protoss AoE is a crutch that if mitigated by the counter-units leaves them unable to do much.
I don't actually think snipe should have stayed around too long, but it was nice that Terrans could engage Infestor/BL in a straight-up manner for a bit. I enjoyed the novelty for a bit, but it was more an illustration that the Blizz team seem to patch out innovative use of abilities far and above broken abilities that work 'as intended'. I mean was ghost snipe ever more obnoxious than carpet fungals in the latter stages of WoL?
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On July 26 2013 21:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 21:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 26 2013 21:48 marcjpb wrote:On July 26 2013 13:13 Poo wrote:On July 26 2013 12:53 larse wrote:This balance interview is done by Chinese media, S.163.com in IEM. I am translating this very fast right now. I will edit the grammar and such later on. Enjoy.. About new units, Swarm host. About viper, we are considering to buff it.
what. why? He just started the interview off saying zerg has an advantage statistically already. Your missing the point. If the whole purpose of an unit is to do Action A and fail to do so, what is the point of that unit ? This very similar to the banshee. In early HOTS, was too easy to counter, so no one made any. Now they buffed it by reducing his upgrade cost, and the banshee could serve is purpose again. And this change wasn't made because Terran were too weak early game or w/e it was just made because the banshee unit wasnt serving its purpose. The beauty of well-designed strategy games is when units are used outside of their designated roles and the roles the designers had in mind. Having that room to innovate is pretty important imo. Part of the problem in WoL for me was the over-patching that stopped interesting uses of units like Thors and Ghosts in favour of more homogenised gameplay, while other blatant problems were kept in for ages or are still there, like fungal and Collosus. The difference, fungal functioned as it was meant to, mass ghost snipe was something of an oversight. I always felt snipe was going to be a problem the later the game went. If you watched the game with Demuslim last night, he had like 27 ghost by the end and they were unkillable with medivac support. With the old snipe, I don't know what zerg would have done against a mass of ghosts that big. It was a cool ability, but it was basic click for extra damage on your zerg unit of choice.
The same is true for Broodlords ... which arent as "flashy" as Ghosts, but they still create their own "invulnerability screen" which basically blocks any ground based units - except Blink Stalkers - from reaching them.
The point where it gets bad is the CRITICAL NUMBER ... and yet they fail to see that as the real problem and instead try to "fix it" by changing the units instead.
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On July 26 2013 20:34 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 20:21 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 20:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Why are people blaming DK on the state of Protoss, mech, design etc? Isn't he responsible mostly for balance? It's Dustin Terrible Terrible Go Play BW Browder that should get that sort of hate. Why do blame them for anything? They make themselves available. Thats why I like Valve and Icefrog. You can't yell at them, they don't ever take an interview. They just patch stuff and you deal with it. Oh man you got good with those heroes. Well fuck that, you will learn these guys now and like it. Don't like the changes, what? I can't hear you, to busy counting money I'm not a moba fan but from what i understand Valve made Dota 2 just a better version of Dota 1, without unnecessary changes or trying to reinvent the wheal, so people that loved Dota 1 for the most part love Dota 2. SC2 is a far cry from BW from most points of view save game engine. I mean, even on the accesability aspect Dota 2 is far better then Dota 1 while SC2 is miles behind BW (battlenet2.0, 3 expansions, etc). It is my impression that Browder and co. just failed to learn and replicate the parts that made BW such a great game. Whether due to arrogance or incompetence doesn't matter, but Valve proved you can do right by a classic game.
Personally I hope Blizzard won't get the impression that making the exact same game over and over and just adding a higher number at the end is the way what people want now. Well Casuals want these safe buys and they have been getting more vocal lately. So game developers that stick to series but make a different game usual get alot more hate in the form of, "hey your 2nd part is totally different from the 1st wtf fix this"
I mean there were always complaints at the start of each new Blizzard rts titel after warcraft1. Warcraft 3 got a lot of hate because of the heroes and I still hate them, but a dumbed down version of Warcraft3 only concentrating on the Hero became a pretty successful game idea.
Of course the chance to make a game worse is higher, especially if your games usually are genre killer class. But they wouldn't be genre killer class if we had the same human vs orc game over and over.
But because game development got more expensive, they can't scrap a game multiple times like the originally starcraft without anyone noticing it.
I find it sad that D3 will have the title of worst game Blizzard ever made, even beating the superman game they made and even that game was decent for a game after a movie, just because they released d3 unfinished and people didn't expect that from a Blizzard game to this extent. But as we now know it was never intended for the pc and they just wanted to milk some money while moving over to consoles.
Anyway I hope they won't start making clones of the same game over and over, even though this generation of their games aren't those genre killers they used to produce and the sell the same game 10 times is more profitable, because casuals love to throw their money away or make games f2p since people love pay 2 win even more.
But thanks to D3 not having supreme reign over the hacknslay market there were some survivors this time around and they had a pretty nice try to grab the crown. Maybe Blizzard only wanted competition emerging again just to crush them the next time.
So come on people make some rts games and don't try to get a piece of pie from the Moba market.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On July 26 2013 22:04 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 21:54 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 21:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 26 2013 21:48 marcjpb wrote:On July 26 2013 13:13 Poo wrote:On July 26 2013 12:53 larse wrote:This balance interview is done by Chinese media, S.163.com in IEM. I am translating this very fast right now. I will edit the grammar and such later on. Enjoy.. About new units, Swarm host. About viper, we are considering to buff it.
what. why? He just started the interview off saying zerg has an advantage statistically already. Your missing the point. If the whole purpose of an unit is to do Action A and fail to do so, what is the point of that unit ? This very similar to the banshee. In early HOTS, was too easy to counter, so no one made any. Now they buffed it by reducing his upgrade cost, and the banshee could serve is purpose again. And this change wasn't made because Terran were too weak early game or w/e it was just made because the banshee unit wasnt serving its purpose. The beauty of well-designed strategy games is when units are used outside of their designated roles and the roles the designers had in mind. Having that room to innovate is pretty important imo. Part of the problem in WoL for me was the over-patching that stopped interesting uses of units like Thors and Ghosts in favour of more homogenised gameplay, while other blatant problems were kept in for ages or are still there, like fungal and Collosus. The difference, fungal functioned as it was meant to, mass ghost snipe was something of an oversight. I always felt snipe was going to be a problem the later the game went. If you watched the game with Demuslim last night, he had like 27 ghost by the end and they were unkillable with medivac support. With the old snipe, I don't know what zerg would have done against a mass of ghosts that big. It was a cool ability, but it was basic click for extra damage on your zerg unit of choice. The same is true for Broodlords ... which arent as "flashy" as Ghosts, but they still create their own "invulnerability screen" which basically blocks any ground based units - except Blink Stalkers - from reaching them. The point where it gets bad is the CRITICAL NUMBER ... and yet they fail to see that as the real problem and instead try to "fix it" by changing the units instead.
Your oft-repeated notions of critical numbers are actually pretty well illustrated by close PvZ games in which the P allins, doesn't have enough to straight-out kill his opponent, the Zerg can't crush the allin and there exists a period of equilibrium.
Pretty much the only time in which PvZ games have long, sustained engagements are in scenarios like this.
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On July 26 2013 22:00 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 21:54 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 21:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 26 2013 21:48 marcjpb wrote:On July 26 2013 13:13 Poo wrote:On July 26 2013 12:53 larse wrote:This balance interview is done by Chinese media, S.163.com in IEM. I am translating this very fast right now. I will edit the grammar and such later on. Enjoy.. About new units, Swarm host. About viper, we are considering to buff it.
what. why? He just started the interview off saying zerg has an advantage statistically already. Your missing the point. If the whole purpose of an unit is to do Action A and fail to do so, what is the point of that unit ? This very similar to the banshee. In early HOTS, was too easy to counter, so no one made any. Now they buffed it by reducing his upgrade cost, and the banshee could serve is purpose again. And this change wasn't made because Terran were too weak early game or w/e it was just made because the banshee unit wasnt serving its purpose. The beauty of well-designed strategy games is when units are used outside of their designated roles and the roles the designers had in mind. Having that room to innovate is pretty important imo. Part of the problem in WoL for me was the over-patching that stopped interesting uses of units like Thors and Ghosts in favour of more homogenised gameplay, while other blatant problems were kept in for ages or are still there, like fungal and Collosus. The difference, fungal functioned as it was meant to, mass ghost snipe was something of an oversight. I always felt snipe was going to be a problem the later the game went. If you watched the game with Demuslim last night, he had like 27 ghost by the end and they were unkillable with medivac support. With the old snipe, I don't know what zerg would have done against a mass of ghosts that big. It was a cool ability, but it was basic click for extra damage on your zerg unit of choice. Ghosts vP don't really rely on snipe in the same way, they are there for carpeting EMPs and are also pretty tanky. I mean, I watched those games too, Demuslim played them out well but they were proof if more was needed that Protoss AoE is a crutch that if mitigated by the counter-units leaves them unable to do much. I don't actually think snipe should have stayed around too long, but it was nice that Terrans could engage Infestor/BL in a straight-up manner for a bit. I enjoyed the novelty for a bit, but it was more an illustration that the Blizz team seem to patch out innovative use of abilities far and above broken abilities that work 'as intended'. I mean was ghost snipe ever more obnoxious than carpet fungals in the latter stages of WoL?
Maybe, I felt they needed to be nerfed, beacuse they simply did not die when zerg attacked them. Also, they were nerfed in the era where terran just figured out the ghost were a unit they could build and they had been previously untouched since beta. The time when EMP didn't do damage, it just got rid of all shields and mana on a unit and three of them could blanket the most spread out protoss army. There were some pretty dumb, busted units that came out of that first beta(oh the days of warp in storm)
I am glad Blizzard is taking a slower road when it comes to balance and trying to match nerfs with buffs. I think buffing units is a better way to balance as a whole, since it makes for more units being used, rather than less. At the end of the day, it not really about the units or if they are strong, its how hard they are to build and how fast they build. Case and point: Zerg uses all of its units. Protoss uses most of them, excpet for stargate units because stargates cost a lot. Terran uses every unit that doesn't require a tech lab, except for ghost and Marauders(which are pretty mobile and has reasonable build times). If Blizzard want more units, they need to look at making them easier to on the field, not stronger.
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I really hate how people just assume the best protoss players based on if they get 3 bases and deathball it or "defend well". Guess what? Protoss is SUPER STRONG on 1 base or 2 base timings. Who have been the most successful protoss players so far? MC, Seed, SoS, Parting, Rain, Creator. Only 2 of those play a sit there and play a "MACRO STYLE" that is acceptable to what foreigners ideal of good play is, and those 2 (Rain and Creator) haven't had the same level of success as the others. Maybe you should just face the facts that the optimal way to play protoss is to use all ins or exploit their early/mid game timings (OMG MC WON ~400k like this). I know its disappointing to people that like NR15 games or whatever, or think that all races should play the same macro style, but thats just not how the race was designed. Protoss needs a complete redesign that isnt going to happen in order to play competitively on the same level of "MACRO GAMES" as zerg and terran do in a long series while still being balanced in the early/mid game. The MSC is a bandaid fix that works fairly well to this style of play, but you still are not nearly playing the optimal way if you aren't killing kids with all ins or timings when you are the strongest. Protoss has an incredibly strong end game. Its just unfortunate that the end game play is based around turtling to it, and the timing play is not to the liking of the community because it doesnt take as much skill or finesse as the other races. EMBRACE IT or stop whining that the protoss players are losing because of imbalance.
This interview was horrible. Probably bad translating, really biased questioning, and despite David Kim giving statistics and facts about the state of both ladder and pro play, we get 12 pages of people ignoring that and proclaiming DK some moron....really sad.
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Think about how many Korean pros who played terran and zerg in broodwar, made the switch to sc2 and have done well. The protoss players...... they've all but disappeared. With out a doubt every top level protoss player in the history of sc2, wol or hots, got their championships on the back of 2 base all ins. Nothing against them, play to win, but there is a problem with the race when you don't even try to play the late game, if you don't go into it with a massive advantage. Parting, MC, Rain, Seed, Squirtle. They 2 base all in a LOT.
When stardust won dreamhack, iirc, every game I watched him play he executed a 2 base all in.
There is a reason the very best bw protoss macro players haven't had results in HOTS. Their skills count for almost nothing. Surprising your opponent with a variety of 2 base all in compositions and timings, seems like the only viable way to play the race at the highest level. Which doesn't work out so well in a BO5 format.
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at least he recognizes that SH turtle is bad for the game, viper (think he is talking blinding cloud since abduct is fine) is bad except in small timing windows or with the mentioned SH turtle and he wants to buff zerg abilities (hello useless ovidrop, nydus, burrow movement and neural parasite, looking at you!) instead of nerfing WM and medivacs.
just hope they dont wait too long...zerg is in a horrible state right now, especially in ZvT.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On July 26 2013 22:22 Irre wrote:
I really hate how people just assume the best protoss players based on if they get 3 bases and deathball it or "defend well". Guess what? Protoss is SUPER STRONG on 1 base or 2 base timings. Who have been the most successful protoss players so far? MC, Seed, SoS, Parting, Rain, Creator. Only 2 of those play a sit there and play a "MACRO STYLE" that is acceptable to what foreigners ideal of good play is, and those 2 (Rain and Creator) haven't had the same level of success as the others. Maybe you should just face the facts that the optimal way to play protoss is to use all ins or exploit their early/mid game timings (OMG MC WON ~400k like this). I know its disappointing to people that like NR15 games or whatever, or think that all races should play the same macro style, but thats just not how the race was designed. Protoss needs a complete redesign that isnt going to happen in order to play competitively on the same level of "MACRO GAMES" as zerg and terran do in a long series while still being balanced in the early/mid game. The MSC is a bandaid fix that works fairly well to this style of play, but you still are not nearly playing the optimal way if you aren't killing kids with all ins or timings when you are the strongest. Protoss has an incredibly strong end game. Its just unfortunate that the end game play is based around turtling to it, and the timing play is not to the liking of the community because it doesnt take as much skill or finesse as the other races. EMBRACE IT or stop whining that the protoss players are losing because of imbalance.
This interview was horrible. Probably bad translating, really biased questioning, and despite David Kim giving statistics and facts about the state of both ladder and pro play, we get 12 pages of people ignoring that and proclaiming DK some moron....really sad.
Who is whining that Protoss aren't winning or are weak?
Do you read these forums, the most numerous complaint coming by far from Protoss players is that they don't WANT to rely on volatile timings and all-ins. Part of the reason that Rain is such an inspirational player to many is because he shows that you can play 'straight-up' and have success.
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On July 26 2013 22:34 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 22:22 Irre wrote:
I really hate how people just assume the best protoss players based on if they get 3 bases and deathball it or "defend well". Guess what? Protoss is SUPER STRONG on 1 base or 2 base timings. Who have been the most successful protoss players so far? MC, Seed, SoS, Parting, Rain, Creator. Only 2 of those play a sit there and play a "MACRO STYLE" that is acceptable to what foreigners ideal of good play is, and those 2 (Rain and Creator) haven't had the same level of success as the others. Maybe you should just face the facts that the optimal way to play protoss is to use all ins or exploit their early/mid game timings (OMG MC WON ~400k like this). I know its disappointing to people that like NR15 games or whatever, or think that all races should play the same macro style, but thats just not how the race was designed. Protoss needs a complete redesign that isnt going to happen in order to play competitively on the same level of "MACRO GAMES" as zerg and terran do in a long series while still being balanced in the early/mid game. The MSC is a bandaid fix that works fairly well to this style of play, but you still are not nearly playing the optimal way if you aren't killing kids with all ins or timings when you are the strongest. Protoss has an incredibly strong end game. Its just unfortunate that the end game play is based around turtling to it, and the timing play is not to the liking of the community because it doesnt take as much skill or finesse as the other races. EMBRACE IT or stop whining that the protoss players are losing because of imbalance.
This interview was horrible. Probably bad translating, really biased questioning, and despite David Kim giving statistics and facts about the state of both ladder and pro play, we get 12 pages of people ignoring that and proclaiming DK some moron....really sad. Who is whining that Protoss aren't winning or are weak? Do you read these forums, the most numerous complaint coming by far from Protoss players is that they don't WANT to rely on volatile timings and all-ins. Part of the reason that Rain is such an inspirational player to many is because he shows that you can play 'straight-up' and have success.
Also, playing protoss straight up is always an option, but may of the protoss have builds to exploit opening they know are in their opponents play. It is very easy for a profesisonal, high level protoss to look at their opponents play and say "oh, if I scout "this", I am doing "this flavor" of 2 base all in". There is nothing wrong with that.
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How to fix Starcraft 2:
Buff gateways units(Stalkers too weak, Medivac = good bye stalkers), Nerf Warp gate(Cooldown) Warp gate should warp less units but the advantage is you can warp anywhere, Remove colossus(A+move units too bad) and add another unit(micro please), and remove FFS.
Terran: Buff ghost, so we can watch them in TvZ vs Vipers, and buff tank damage vs protoss, i don't like the idea you need ghost to make mech viable in TvP.
Zerg: Readd Ultralisk Burrow that was a cool idea, Buff Overlord drop, Buff nydus(So we can watch more agressive zergs, jaedong would be happy), You need to pay 50 minerals to unburrow spines/spores, Swarm hosts' locust only can be upgraded until 2/1, i don't think swarm host should be a late game unit.
General: Add High ground advantage, so we can watch more comebacks, make starcraft 2 more social, chats for your own league and like Flash said, i think we should be able to make more units, 200/200 doesn't seems to be alot of units like in BW.
All sc2 needs is more micro less a+move, so players like Jaedong, Flash can dominate again.
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On July 26 2013 20:09 Plansix wrote:
Oh man, this interview, what the hell?
Do you think zerg busted? Do think its because of the widow mine? Isn't it kinda bullshit?
How about protoss? You think they are fine? Well I don't? You disagree? Fine then.
Why can't I mech yet? Ok, what about the high damage values? Have you considered remaking the game from the ground up? No. Ok, well what about these units I think are bullshit.
Well that was a funny read right before work. Maybe I will do a count later on of how many times people use the word design in this thread after this.
I had the same thoughts while reading this interview. Felt like half the opinions during this interview were personal ones from the interviewer himself.
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On July 27 2013 00:08 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 20:09 Plansix wrote:
Oh man, this interview, what the hell?
Do you think zerg busted? Do think its because of the widow mine? Isn't it kinda bullshit?
How about protoss? You think they are fine? Well I don't? You disagree? Fine then.
Why can't I mech yet? Ok, what about the high damage values? Have you considered remaking the game from the ground up? No. Ok, well what about these units I think are bullshit.
Well that was a funny read right before work. Maybe I will do a count later on of how many times people use the word design in this thread after this. I had the same thoughts while reading this interview. Felt like half the opinions during this interview were personal ones from the interviewer himself.
Yeah, I think DK gets a bad rap sometimes with the level of BS questions he gets. I remember one interview someone asked him why Muta's couldn't fight straight with any army and DK very nicely explained that they were a harass unit. The interviewer then asked "and you're ok with that, them being useless in a large battle?" Half of me wanted DK to just snap the mic out of the kid's hand an just say, "Yeah, I am, you now why? Because I'm in fucking charge of what shit does in this game and you will fucking like it!"
But he didn't, sadly. Stupid PR training.
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On July 26 2013 21:59 Let it Raine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 13:00 Kim Hyuna wrote:David Kim is an idiot. David Kim: Overall, Protoss is not weak. In a lot of Ro32, Protoss has a stable and high presence. This is not a problem of SC2. It seems like there are fewer top Protoss players out there, at least fewer than Terran and Zerg. So I think we need to look for more new top Protoss players, and then the situation will change. If the number is getting worse [for Protoss], then we will consider change some Protoss units. In addition, in Dreamhack, Stardust got the championship. WCS S1 NA had a lot of Protoss. These numbers make me relaxed. We already seen TOP protoss players playing inside KR. And almost zero success in taking one major title here in KR. Isn't PartinG, Rain, First, MC etc top Protoss players? I don't see any NEW upcoming top protoss coming near. And, Stardust is playing against Foreigner and not TOP Z/T players from KR. And his win against JD is nothing HUGE because JD is known for his weakness in PvZ. What an idiot again. David Kim: I think, in WOL, Protoss's strategy was too narrowed. Basically you only need to turtle up for a big army and then win with one push. But now the situation is different. We add oracle for harassment and change the warp prism's speed. These give more choices for Protoss players. I hope we can see more competitive games. Isn't that what Protossers has been doing? It's either turtle up for one fucking push or 2 base all in. Oracle? It's a shit unit. Obviously he hates Protoss since WOL days. lol protoss makes it to the finals or 1 game from the finals fuck it protoss UP ~logic~
Doesnt matter if they are in the finals or 1 game away from the finals when its the worst designed race of any RTS ever made.
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its funny see david kim worried about making vipers "better" and mech work vs toss and zerg but thinking protoss need top players, this guy is a CLOWN, protoss need a redesign, i think everyone agree with that...protoss dont want to play straight macro games because is painful, its annoying for the protoss, and the W/L ratio is bad, u cant miss a single click or a bad engage and u are down.
they put the MSC to bandaid the "bad engage mistake" or something, but the problem with protoss is mobility, the heavy eco based, slow units, stalker crap... i feel so bad because i love units like both templars, the phoenix... but we need speed, thats it.
MECH suffer the same problem as the entire protoss race, mech is SLOW, and dont work vs other builds because u are abused by runbys, speedvacs, drops... because u are alow
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First of all, I never played protoss, I have experience with terran and zerg but not protoss so I may be wrong on some of my observations but I want to comment the protoss and David Kim's response to this interviewer.
I don't understand why people complain so much about protoss. I think David Kim's answer is ok. I mean, what can they do to make protoss better except add more harassment potential like WP or oracle etc.
WP tech is very powerful.
It makes any protoss timing strong because you can completely remove the travel time and reinforcing works good on big and small maps. Add forcefields and time warp in it and buffing any gateway unit like zealot or stalker would make protoss to strong. Also, protoss is obviously very strong past mid game when you have tons of aoe damage and it makes engaging protoss army straight on very hard so any buffs to templar, archon, colosuss are also obviously not possible.
Buffing protoss air would make them imbalanced in PvZ for sure.
So again, only realistic option (they cant redesign the whole race with patches in Hots) is to work on protoss harassment. They made DTs cheaper, they buffed oracle, they buffed warp prism. Also, since protoss focuses so much on gas, late game chargelot harassment is almost free. They are actually doing something about protoss to try to make them better (unlike mech)
Protoss has good representation in torunaments and in proleague etc. They also get very high placements on tournaments. This season of OSL is no exception. Only problem is that they don't get as many 1st place results as terran or zerg. So I don't think David Kim's reasoning about protoss not having so many top level players is unreasonable.
I mean, you have guys like Hero who do these entertaining and small, guerrilla like fights all around the map, you have guys like Rain who play very strong defensive style, you have guys like Parting who excel at micro and execution and you have protoss players that are extremely good at particular matchups.
You also often hear Artosis and Tasteless talk about how each top protoss has his own distinct play style. This makes them very predictable. Rain is especially a good example of that.
But I can't really say any one of them has "the whole package" and that is what I think you need to make the difference between finishing high on tournaments and actually winning the whole thing.
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EPT
