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On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:On July 02 2013 13:56 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:51 AxionSteel wrote:On July 02 2013 13:46 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Thrillz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:33 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 02:59 SlixSC wrote:
[quote]
Ok? But that's exactly what would happen every month, regardless of what the person compiling these statistics does? Not only these statistics, the same logic could be applied to aligulac's win rates too. So then I ask, why even bother in the first place? (and the effect could be even amplified in aligulac's statistics seeing as they include all kinds of low level matches and qualifiers?) Ah, we reached a consensus. Why should they bother? Both ChaosTerran and Aligulac have a filtering process that may actually render their data invalid. Looking purely at winrates is silly to be honest. Which is why I suggested this:
What would really be a worthwhile exercise (and I'll probably contact the Aligulac guy about this later) would be to use the Aligulac rating of each player, and then compare winrates by race. Thus if a heavily favored Protoss player like Dear defeated QXC, it wouldn't necessarily show that Protoss was imbalanced. However if QXC (who is a big underdog) defeated Dear, it might indicate imbalance, especially if Terran underdogs were defeating Protoss favorites on a regular basis when they normally did not.
And TheBB delivered. http://aligulac.com/reports/And now we can see that when I selected Protoss I made a massive error. That doesn't say Protoss is horribly bad right now at all..........not to mention there are a few problems with that method, just like the previous ones. The method is far better than the old one, because it somewhat correct for player skill, while the old one does not. Perfect? No. But better. Anyway, I like your edit from Protoss isn't bad at all to Protoss isn't horribly bad right now. Protoss has been massively underperforming, meaning that high level Protoss players are losing more to lower level Terrans and Zergs. Don't see how that is relevant to you making a massive error picking protoss, though. omg imba terran stealing my ladder points =( As long as it's balanced in Korea, then I'm somewhat satisfied. Would still encourage a slight nerf to hellbats though. Over the history of SC2, Protoss has clearly done the poorest according to that chart, and it means that a Protoss player more often than not loses to Terran and Zerg players of equal skill. That is annoying to me, because I like to win. But we all knew this didn't we... this chart just confirms what all the win rates showed. And the results. Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows. But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol
What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron?
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I only trust data which I faked myself.
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On July 24 2013 02:56 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:On July 02 2013 13:56 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:51 AxionSteel wrote:On July 02 2013 13:46 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Thrillz wrote:On July 02 2013 13:33 BronzeKnee wrote:[quote] Ah, we reached a consensus. Why should they bother? Both ChaosTerran and Aligulac have a filtering process that may actually render their data invalid. Looking purely at winrates is silly to be honest. Which is why I suggested this: [quote] And TheBB delivered. http://aligulac.com/reports/And now we can see that when I selected Protoss I made a massive error. That doesn't say Protoss is horribly bad right now at all..........not to mention there are a few problems with that method, just like the previous ones. The method is far better than the old one, because it somewhat correct for player skill, while the old one does not. Perfect? No. But better. Anyway, I like your edit from Protoss isn't bad at all to Protoss isn't horribly bad right now. Protoss has been massively underperforming, meaning that high level Protoss players are losing more to lower level Terrans and Zergs. Don't see how that is relevant to you making a massive error picking protoss, though. omg imba terran stealing my ladder points =( As long as it's balanced in Korea, then I'm somewhat satisfied. Would still encourage a slight nerf to hellbats though. Over the history of SC2, Protoss has clearly done the poorest according to that chart, and it means that a Protoss player more often than not loses to Terran and Zerg players of equal skill. That is annoying to me, because I like to win. But we all knew this didn't we... this chart just confirms what all the win rates showed. And the results. Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows. But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron?
Here.
A list of successful foreigners.
Notice a grand total of a single terran in top 10.
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On July 24 2013 03:09 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:56 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:On July 02 2013 13:56 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:51 AxionSteel wrote:On July 02 2013 13:46 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:40 Thrillz wrote:
[quote]
That doesn't say Protoss is horribly bad right now at all..........not to mention there are a few problems with that method, just like the previous ones. The method is far better than the old one, because it somewhat correct for player skill, while the old one does not. Perfect? No. But better. Anyway, I like your edit from Protoss isn't bad at all to Protoss isn't horribly bad right now. Protoss has been massively underperforming, meaning that high level Protoss players are losing more to lower level Terrans and Zergs. Don't see how that is relevant to you making a massive error picking protoss, though. omg imba terran stealing my ladder points =( As long as it's balanced in Korea, then I'm somewhat satisfied. Would still encourage a slight nerf to hellbats though. Over the history of SC2, Protoss has clearly done the poorest according to that chart, and it means that a Protoss player more often than not loses to Terran and Zerg players of equal skill. That is annoying to me, because I like to win. But we all knew this didn't we... this chart just confirms what all the win rates showed. And the results. Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows. But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron? Here.A list of successful foreigners. Notice a grand total of a single terran in top 10.
That doesn't prove anything about now, since its the top earners of all time from the launch of SC2. There is also only one US player, so I could say that SC2 is really hard for all US players with those standards of proof.
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On July 24 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:09 pmp10 wrote:On July 24 2013 02:56 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:On July 02 2013 13:56 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:51 AxionSteel wrote:On July 02 2013 13:46 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
The method is far better than the old one, because it somewhat correct for player skill, while the old one does not. Perfect? No. But better.
Anyway, I like your edit from Protoss isn't bad at all to Protoss isn't horribly bad right now. Protoss has been massively underperforming, meaning that high level Protoss players are losing more to lower level Terrans and Zergs. Don't see how that is relevant to you making a massive error picking protoss, though. omg imba terran stealing my ladder points =( As long as it's balanced in Korea, then I'm somewhat satisfied. Would still encourage a slight nerf to hellbats though. Over the history of SC2, Protoss has clearly done the poorest according to that chart, and it means that a Protoss player more often than not loses to Terran and Zerg players of equal skill. That is annoying to me, because I like to win. But we all knew this didn't we... this chart just confirms what all the win rates showed. And the results. Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows. But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron? Here.A list of successful foreigners. Notice a grand total of a single terran in top 10. That doesn't prove anything about now, since its the top earners of all time from the launch of SC2. There is also only one US player, so I could say that SC2 is really hard for all US players with those standards of proof.
You could but then you would have to explain the presence of Stephano and Snute who didn't start their pro carers with WoL launch. And of course if being from NA is the problem you need to explain away Huk and Idra.
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On July 24 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:09 pmp10 wrote:On July 24 2013 02:56 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:On July 02 2013 13:56 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:51 AxionSteel wrote:On July 02 2013 13:46 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
The method is far better than the old one, because it somewhat correct for player skill, while the old one does not. Perfect? No. But better.
Anyway, I like your edit from Protoss isn't bad at all to Protoss isn't horribly bad right now. Protoss has been massively underperforming, meaning that high level Protoss players are losing more to lower level Terrans and Zergs. Don't see how that is relevant to you making a massive error picking protoss, though. omg imba terran stealing my ladder points =( As long as it's balanced in Korea, then I'm somewhat satisfied. Would still encourage a slight nerf to hellbats though. Over the history of SC2, Protoss has clearly done the poorest according to that chart, and it means that a Protoss player more often than not loses to Terran and Zerg players of equal skill. That is annoying to me, because I like to win. But we all knew this didn't we... this chart just confirms what all the win rates showed. And the results. Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows. But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron? Here.A list of successful foreigners. Notice a grand total of a single terran in top 10. That doesn't prove anything about now, since its the top earners of all time from the launch of SC2. There is also only one US player, so I could say that SC2 is really hard for all US players with those standards of proof.
with only one click you have the stats for 2013.
Now we look here at the 5 best earning terrans out of korea. There we have Lucifron (19340), Thorzain (6860), Kas (4750), Bunny (4080) and Strelok (3500).
So we have 5 non-korean Terran players who earned more/equal than 3500 dollars prizemoney in 2013.
Now let's look how many Protoss and Zerg players we have with more(and equal) than 3500 dollars prizemoney:
Protoss: 10
Zerg: 17
so the same thing as usual. We have a very small elite group of terran players, who actually do well, while the big pack of high level terran players falls short.
this might only lead to one observation: the race is very unforgiving. even the slightest mistake costs you games, possibly even against inferior players.
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On July 24 2013 03:33 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 03:09 pmp10 wrote:On July 24 2013 02:56 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:On July 02 2013 13:56 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:51 AxionSteel wrote:
[quote]
Don't see how that is relevant to you making a massive error picking protoss, though. omg imba terran stealing my ladder points =(
As long as it's balanced in Korea, then I'm somewhat satisfied. Would still encourage a slight nerf to hellbats though. Over the history of SC2, Protoss has clearly done the poorest according to that chart, and it means that a Protoss player more often than not loses to Terran and Zerg players of equal skill. That is annoying to me, because I like to win. But we all knew this didn't we... this chart just confirms what all the win rates showed. And the results. Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows. But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron? Here.A list of successful foreigners. Notice a grand total of a single terran in top 10. That doesn't prove anything about now, since its the top earners of all time from the launch of SC2. There is also only one US player, so I could say that SC2 is really hard for all US players with those standards of proof. with only one click you have the stats for 2013. Now we look here at the 5 best earning terrans out of korea. There we have Lucifron (19340), Thorzain (6860), Kas (4750), Bunny (4080) and Strelok (3500). So we have 5 non-korean Terran players who earned more/equal than 3500 dollars prizemoney in 2013. Now let's look how many Protoss and Zerg players we have with more(and equal) than 3500 dollars prizemoney: Protoss: 10Zerg: 17so the same thing as usual. We have a very small elite group of terran players, who actually do well, while the big pack of high level terran players falls short. this might only lead to one observation: the race is very unforgiving. even the slightest mistake costs you games, possibly even against inferior players.
How in the world is that the "only" one observation you draw from earnings? No, really? Alone that might be a reasonable statement to make in a vacuum, but when you conclude that based on earnings, and that alone, you sound extremely biased.
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We dont really need to look at numbers to conclude why there are so few elite foreign terrans. Just look at the game - Its simple logic why terran is a more unforgiving race than the others. Playing terran poses a different set of challenges than the other races does, namely that terran has a more fragile army (babysitting etc), and terrans (oftentimes) need to be more reactive to what the other races are doing. On top of that the race is arguably more micro intensive.
In the end, terran requires more control practice than the other races. I could say thats my opinion but I truly believe that if you look at it objectively that is the case. Koreans playing 10hrs+ a day will make up for this and therefore play strongly, whilst foreigners are not practicing enough and will therefore lose against P/Z players at the same level, because the race requires more control.
I, personally, view this as somewhat of a design fault. Hope I dont get warned for this, I am simply stating what I believe to be the case in this scenario.
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@krooked: all races are hard to master  , but as u said, there are diffrent skills required and because the terrans have the hardest army control a lot of ppl switch to P/Z on lower leagues (bronze to gold) --> look at the race disturibution on sc2ranks.com. So i absolutely agree with your statement!
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Seems quite balanced to me.
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On July 24 2013 05:26 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:33 TeeTS wrote:On July 24 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 03:09 pmp10 wrote:On July 24 2013 02:56 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:On July 02 2013 13:56 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
Over the history of SC2, Protoss has clearly done the poorest according to that chart, and it means that a Protoss player more often than not loses to Terran and Zerg players of equal skill. That is annoying to me, because I like to win.
But we all knew this didn't we... this chart just confirms what all the win rates showed. And the results. Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows. But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron? Here.A list of successful foreigners. Notice a grand total of a single terran in top 10. That doesn't prove anything about now, since its the top earners of all time from the launch of SC2. There is also only one US player, so I could say that SC2 is really hard for all US players with those standards of proof. with only one click you have the stats for 2013. Now we look here at the 5 best earning terrans out of korea. There we have Lucifron (19340), Thorzain (6860), Kas (4750), Bunny (4080) and Strelok (3500). So we have 5 non-korean Terran players who earned more/equal than 3500 dollars prizemoney in 2013. Now let's look how many Protoss and Zerg players we have with more(and equal) than 3500 dollars prizemoney: Protoss: 10Zerg: 17so the same thing as usual. We have a very small elite group of terran players, who actually do well, while the big pack of high level terran players falls short. this might only lead to one observation: the race is very unforgiving. even the slightest mistake costs you games, possibly even against inferior players. How in the world is that the "only" one observation you draw from earnings? No, really? Alone that might be a reasonable statement to make in a vacuum, but when you conclude that based on earnings, and that alone, you sound extremely biased.
if you believe in the law of great numbers, you should expect that the skilled players should be more or less distributed equally over the 3 races in a large enough are. Now we're looking here on an area that is the world minus korea - pretty large to me. total prize money is a suitable stat to easily evaluate tournament success of players. The further you go in the bigger tournaments gives you more money.
So we have a more or less precise rating of overall tournament success for players here. And that tells us, that many more protoss and especially zerg players have found success in comparison to terran players.
Now we go back to the first point: overall the skilled players should be distributed relatively equally over the three races!
So why do we have such a huge discrepancy here? Well, terrans lose more games. why do they? because they make mistakes! Terran is not clearly UP, because on the very top level, the race does well. But just a little bit below the absolute top, the race certainly struggles big time. What seperates the very top from just very good pros? The amount of those tiny mistakes they do. So you can conclude, that apparantly those tiny mistakes cost terrans more often games than they cost zerg or protoss.
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On July 24 2013 21:19 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:26 rd wrote:On July 24 2013 03:33 TeeTS wrote:On July 24 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 03:09 pmp10 wrote:On July 24 2013 02:56 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:
[quote]
Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows.
But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron? Here.A list of successful foreigners. Notice a grand total of a single terran in top 10. That doesn't prove anything about now, since its the top earners of all time from the launch of SC2. There is also only one US player, so I could say that SC2 is really hard for all US players with those standards of proof. with only one click you have the stats for 2013. Now we look here at the 5 best earning terrans out of korea. There we have Lucifron (19340), Thorzain (6860), Kas (4750), Bunny (4080) and Strelok (3500). So we have 5 non-korean Terran players who earned more/equal than 3500 dollars prizemoney in 2013. Now let's look how many Protoss and Zerg players we have with more(and equal) than 3500 dollars prizemoney: Protoss: 10Zerg: 17so the same thing as usual. We have a very small elite group of terran players, who actually do well, while the big pack of high level terran players falls short. this might only lead to one observation: the race is very unforgiving. even the slightest mistake costs you games, possibly even against inferior players. How in the world is that the "only" one observation you draw from earnings? No, really? Alone that might be a reasonable statement to make in a vacuum, but when you conclude that based on earnings, and that alone, you sound extremely biased. if you believe in the law of great numbers, you should expect that the skilled players should be more or less distributed equally over the 3 races in a large enough are. Now we're looking here on an area that is the world minus korea - pretty large to me. total prize money is a suitable stat to easily evaluate tournament success of players. The further you go in the bigger tournaments gives you more money. So we have a more or less precise rating of overall tournament success for players here. And that tells us, that many more protoss and especially zerg players have found success in comparison to terran players. Now we go back to the first point: overall the skilled players should be distributed relatively equally over the three races! So why do we have such a huge discrepancy here? Well, terrans lose more games. why do they? because they make mistakes! Terran is not clearly UP, because on the very top level, the race does well. But just a little bit below the absolute top, the race certainly struggles big time. What seperates the very top from just very good pros? The amount of those tiny mistakes they do. So you can conclude, that apparantly those tiny mistakes cost terrans more often games than they cost zerg or protoss.
blabla what a total nonsense argument.
Law of large numbers doesn't apply here because the pro (ie those earning money) community of foreigners is actually quite small. Just select every region but asia for 2013 or 2013 and 2012 and you'll see it is relatively even. Zerg does best, then protoss and terran are fairly even, nothing interesting.
All this stuff is useless for balance, tournament results and prize earnings are a lousy way to gauge success because the top, which is very small, has a very large influence. The best players play more tournament games (because of knockout format dominating most tournaments) and get by far the most earnings. Ladder statistics corrected for skill are the best way to look at balance and probably the only meaningful way statistically but we don't have them. Aligulac reports come closest probably but tournament only data has it's problems.
Having said that, tournament results look quite healthy, should be nothing to worry about at the moment.
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I agree markwerf.
Generally, using numbers to gauge balance is hopeless. First off, what kind of balance are we thinking about? Absolute balance we cant say anything about yet because the game still needs to be explored. There are so many factors counting when speaking about balance. Protoss could have 70% WR in a match up but still be underpowered because there might be a flaw in early game protoss which other races could abuse (but havent done yet), or maybe a lot of protoss are cheesing or playing a way that is hard to deal with but not imbalanced, and maybe protoss are UP in mid/late-game etc. And then there is balance on different levels. As already mentioned about terran, I dont think terran is balanced at a certain level, but it may be at higher levels etc.
You simply cant look at numbers to assess balance issues.
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On July 24 2013 21:19 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:26 rd wrote:On July 24 2013 03:33 TeeTS wrote:On July 24 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 03:09 pmp10 wrote:On July 24 2013 02:56 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:
[quote]
Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows.
But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron? Here.A list of successful foreigners. Notice a grand total of a single terran in top 10. That doesn't prove anything about now, since its the top earners of all time from the launch of SC2. There is also only one US player, so I could say that SC2 is really hard for all US players with those standards of proof. with only one click you have the stats for 2013. Now we look here at the 5 best earning terrans out of korea. There we have Lucifron (19340), Thorzain (6860), Kas (4750), Bunny (4080) and Strelok (3500). So we have 5 non-korean Terran players who earned more/equal than 3500 dollars prizemoney in 2013. Now let's look how many Protoss and Zerg players we have with more(and equal) than 3500 dollars prizemoney: Protoss: 10Zerg: 17so the same thing as usual. We have a very small elite group of terran players, who actually do well, while the big pack of high level terran players falls short. this might only lead to one observation: the race is very unforgiving. even the slightest mistake costs you games, possibly even against inferior players. How in the world is that the "only" one observation you draw from earnings? No, really? Alone that might be a reasonable statement to make in a vacuum, but when you conclude that based on earnings, and that alone, you sound extremely biased. if you believe in the law of great numbers, you should expect that the skilled players should be more or less distributed equally over the 3 races in a large enough are. Now we're looking here on an area that is the world minus korea - pretty large to me. total prize money is a suitable stat to easily evaluate tournament success of players. The further you go in the bigger tournaments gives you more money. So we have a more or less precise rating of overall tournament success for players here. And that tells us, that many more protoss and especially zerg players have found success in comparison to terran players. Now we go back to the first point: overall the skilled players should be distributed relatively equally over the three races! So why do we have such a huge discrepancy here? Well, terrans lose more games. why do they? because they make mistakes! Terran is not clearly UP, because on the very top level, the race does well. But just a little bit below the absolute top, the race certainly struggles big time. What seperates the very top from just very good pros? The amount of those tiny mistakes they do. So you can conclude, that apparantly those tiny mistakes cost terrans more often games than they cost zerg or protoss.
The rhetorical question went over your head. I'll just restate: Based on earnings alone, you pull out a fact, a fact that was the product of a sole observation (which is ENTIRELY unrelated); Terrans making less money? They're making more mistakes! You've inserted an assumption into your conclusion, regardless of whether or not it's even right. Theres a large gap in your train of thought which is fairly indicative of an assumption.
I'm also not sure what laws of great numbers you refer to, but the "skilled" players are most certainly not evenly distributed across the three races, nor is there anything which would dictate any given player gravitate towards a race through a random and coincidental process. You'd be surprised to find out that, there is most definitely an uneven distribution among foreign players: 39% zerg, 34% protoss, 26% terran (numbers taken from liquipedia). Turns out it's much more likely foreign Terrans are making less money because -- surprise -- there are less Terrans competing! When you go through the top 50 earners outside of Korea, the proportion of money that Terran has earned falls right around that mark of 26% too. Why there are less Terrans is a completely different issue.
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Nice to see these winrates reflect my "studies" of The Korean GM Ladder, I went through through most of the Terrans and all of them had a 40-45% win-rate in TvP, there was only one Terran who had a positive TvP win ratio, he had a magnificent 65% win rate this season, watching his build orders vs P I found out that he must be a God at 11-11.
You can also find some of the toss GMs with sick 70+% win rate PvT.
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United States97276 Posts
On July 25 2013 06:16 ImperialFist wrote:
Nice to see these winrates reflect my "studies" of The Korean GM Ladder, I went through through most of the Terrans and all of them had a 40-45% win-rate in TvP, there was only one Terran who had a positive TvP win ratio, he had a magnificent 65% win rate this season, watching his build orders vs P I found out that he must be a God at 11-11.
You can also find some of the toss GMs with sick 70+% win rate PvT.
Must have found Maru's account for the vP
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On July 24 2013 03:21 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 03:09 pmp10 wrote:On July 24 2013 02:56 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 24 2013 01:29 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On July 24 2013 01:24 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 00:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 03 2013 02:55 Wildmoon wrote:On July 02 2013 13:56 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 02 2013 13:51 AxionSteel wrote:
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Don't see how that is relevant to you making a massive error picking protoss, though. omg imba terran stealing my ladder points =(
As long as it's balanced in Korea, then I'm somewhat satisfied. Would still encourage a slight nerf to hellbats though. Over the history of SC2, Protoss has clearly done the poorest according to that chart, and it means that a Protoss player more often than not loses to Terran and Zerg players of equal skill. That is annoying to me, because I like to win. But we all knew this didn't we... this chart just confirms what all the win rates showed. And the results. Over the history of BW, Protoss has won the least amount of championship and has no bonjwa. That's protoss for you. I kinda think that Protoss is slightly weaker than other races in both SC2 and BW but the difference is so small that it won't be noticeable in short term but in long term it shows. But Protoss has always performed quite well in team leagues, and foreign Protoss players are far more successful than foreign Terrans (which basically don't exist). Thorzain and Demuslim would like to disagree. That's two successful foreign Terrans...vs the myriad of successful foreign players of the other two races lol What are you calling successful? Who is successful right now with protoss as foreigner. Naniwa? And what about Lucifron? Here.A list of successful foreigners. Notice a grand total of a single terran in top 10. That doesn't prove anything about now, since its the top earners of all time from the launch of SC2. There is also only one US player, so I could say that SC2 is really hard for all US players with those standards of proof. You could but then you would have to explain the presence of Stephano and Snute who didn't start their pro carers with WoL launch. And of course if being from NA is the problem you need to explain away Huk and Idra.
he is right. Comparing all time earnings is the same as estimating current balance by all time winrates.
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EPT
