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On July 26 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 02:16 woopr wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Blizzard should make tanks 2 supply at least as a first step. Thats just what we need, 40 tanks on 80 supply. I am sure no game will ever become stale or slow with that many tanks.
Was gonna say that wasn't an issue in Brood War, then I realized we don't have Vultures. =(
I really don't understand people's obsession with making mech strong in SC2. It's really not as interesting or microable as it was in BW, nor is it as interesting and microable as Bio and Bionic are in SC2. Again: Hellbats instead of Vultures (far less demanding to use, making them far more efficient), Tanks weaker but with smart targetting AI etc.
I mean it seems a bit unreasonable that people complained for so long about Protoss' deathball and Zerg's BL/Infestor and yet they keep wanting mech to be stronger. Because of the core unit design, this won't be the same mech we had in Brood War. :s
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@TheDwf LOL that literally made me giggle hahaha. Yea if your opponent gets his side of the map with uncontested 40 tanks you have done something very wrong.... lol
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On July 26 2013 02:21 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:16 woopr wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Blizzard should make tanks 2 supply at least as a first step. Thats just what we need, 40 tanks on 80 supply. I am sure no game will ever become stale or slow with that many tanks. Nothing forces you to nap while your Terran opponent spends 10 minuts building a 5k gas army from 4 Factories.
I am just pointing out that everyone hated the stale, no action state that WoL got to. People will try to turn SC2 in to a tower defense game if they are given the chance and lots of tanks is a way to do that.
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On July 26 2013 02:21 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:16 woopr wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Blizzard should make tanks 2 supply at least as a first step. Thats just what we need, 40 tanks on 80 supply. I am sure no game will ever become stale or slow with that many tanks. Nothing forces you to nap while your Terran opponent spends 10 minutes building a 5k gas army from 4 Factories.
The problem is, that would start forcing toss players to get away from the "turtle to colosus high templar" mentality and be the tempo setting race. I doubt many know how to not turtle deathball, so if such a change was implemented, toss players would likely end up failing or just doing allins, while balance whining all the way regardless of whether it was a good change or not.
From that standpoint, it's very unlikely such big matchup changes will be viable before LotV.
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the winrates for korea say terran is the weakest race there
+ Show Spoiler +yet we got 3 terrans in the semifinals of wcs korea
seems pretty fine overall, though. and the metagame is evolving quickly, for example the inclusion of roachbane busts in zvt. imho it would be by far the best if blizz left the game as it is for a couple more months to see how things develop.
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On July 26 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 02:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:16 woopr wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Blizzard should make tanks 2 supply at least as a first step. Thats just what we need, 40 tanks on 80 supply. I am sure no game will ever become stale or slow with that many tanks. Nothing forces you to nap while your Terran opponent spends 10 minuts building a 5k gas army from 4 Factories. I am just pointing out that everyone hated the stale, no action state that WoL got to. People will try to turn SC2 in to a tower defense game if they are given the chance and lots of tanks is a way to do that.
It's the opposite actually, the "turtly" aspect of mech is the consequence of how weak Tanks are. But who cares anyway, we'll probably never have a proper mech outside of TvT, not only because SC2 developers hate/despite the Tank, but also because it doesn't match the clichés about what is supposed to be "entertaining;" people are just too accustomed to the "fast & furious" side of SC2, and when things don't involve flashy Marine splits or green goo all over the screen they're often labelled as "boring," as if games like this, this or this didn't have their own tension and interest.
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On July 26 2013 02:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 23:28 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Playing bio vs hellbat-tank in TvT is already almost as hard as playing vs the toss deatball. Don't kill bio TvT. Bio players already have to play twice as good as the mech player, don't make it completely broken. I personally would be completely fine with Bio dying in TvT and TvP. I think the whole bio thing is incredibly boring to watch and the strength of bio just feels completely wrong. The fact that a 50 mineral, 1 supply unit is the best thing Terran has is disgusting and shows the flawed, shallow design of the race as a whole. If we want a deeper, richer experience with anything involving Terran in SC2, the marine needs to get less good and mech units need to have better options to deal with things like blink stalkers and immortals. Right now, the entire race hinges on the viability of the Marine vs everything else. Why is it ok for Terran to be so non-dynamic while we see multiple composition changes through any decent game from the other races? Terran never stops making Marines in ANY MU right now, and with good reason, it's the best thing they've got. That's a problem... Well, if we want Terrans to be able to change their comps like there other 2 races, we would have to redo the whole production infrastructure. Zergs actually make the most 'transitions' but it is because their production is the most flexible. Also, it is not the marines themselves, medivacs are actually what makes the marines tick.
I will agree that the problem is most apparent when marines are paired with medivacs, but I would say the marine is the major offender here due to the fact that many high-level games are played with lots of marines and little medivac support, and not so much the opposite. We don't often see fleets of medivacs flying around supporting non-marines looking broke as hell, but we DO OFTEN see non-healed marines stim-kiting armies to death.
While the problem wouldn't be as big without medivac support (and thus might cease to be a problem), it's still based on the raw power and flexibility of the marine, especially when supported by other units. This of course, leads back to the thesis of my argument: Every other Terran unit sucks because the more you support marines, the more OP they get.
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Lol @ people saying terran is op
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On July 26 2013 02:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:16 woopr wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Blizzard should make tanks 2 supply at least as a first step. Thats just what we need, 40 tanks on 80 supply. I am sure no game will ever become stale or slow with that many tanks. Nothing forces you to nap while your Terran opponent spends 10 minuts building a 5k gas army from 4 Factories. I am just pointing out that everyone hated the stale, no action state that WoL got to. People will try to turn SC2 in to a tower defense game if they are given the chance and lots of tanks is a way to do that. It's the opposite actually, the "turtly" aspect of mech is the consequence of how weak Tanks are. But who cares anyway, we'll probably never have a proper mech outside of TvT, not only because SC2 developers hate/despite the Tank, but also because it doesn't match the clichés about what is supposed to be "entertaining;" people are just too accustomed to the "fast & furious" side of SC2, and when things don't involve flashy Marine splits or green goo all over the screen they're often labelled as "boring," as if games like this, this or this didn't have their own tension and interest.
I think the main problem is also that most SC2 players don't get that fact that Mech in BW was hard to play(per everyone who played it) and unforgiving. A lot of people looking for "tank buffs" want to be able to win games when players crash against their wall of tanks and they just watch at the units fall under the never ending fire. Thus is the problem, that even if they did buff mech to the point that is was in BW, a lot fo peopel would say "its not good enough, if I make one mistake, I die"
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I feel the same way this is not an area for balance discussion there is a designated thread for that.....
Edit: TVZ and TVP winrates are almost 50% which speaks for itself......
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On July 26 2013 02:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 02:39 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:16 woopr wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Blizzard should make tanks 2 supply at least as a first step. Thats just what we need, 40 tanks on 80 supply. I am sure no game will ever become stale or slow with that many tanks. Nothing forces you to nap while your Terran opponent spends 10 minuts building a 5k gas army from 4 Factories. I am just pointing out that everyone hated the stale, no action state that WoL got to. People will try to turn SC2 in to a tower defense game if they are given the chance and lots of tanks is a way to do that. It's the opposite actually, the "turtly" aspect of mech is the consequence of how weak Tanks are. But who cares anyway, we'll probably never have a proper mech outside of TvT, not only because SC2 developers hate/despite the Tank, but also because it doesn't match the clichés about what is supposed to be "entertaining;" people are just too accustomed to the "fast & furious" side of SC2, and when things don't involve flashy Marine splits or green goo all over the screen they're often labelled as "boring," as if games like this, this or this didn't have their own tension and interest. I think the main problem is also that most SC2 players don't get that fact that Mech in BW was hard to play(per everyone who played it) and unforgiving. A lot of people looking for "tank buffs" want to be able to win games when players crash against their wall of tanks and they just watch at the units fall under the never ending fire. Thus is the problem, that even if they did buff mech to the point that is was in BW, a lot fo peopel would say "its not good enough, if I make one mistake, I die"
Blizzard would never revert mech to its BW state though.
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On July 26 2013 02:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:16 woopr wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Blizzard should make tanks 2 supply at least as a first step. Thats just what we need, 40 tanks on 80 supply. I am sure no game will ever become stale or slow with that many tanks. Nothing forces you to nap while your Terran opponent spends 10 minuts building a 5k gas army from 4 Factories. I am just pointing out that everyone hated the stale, no action state that WoL got to. People will try to turn SC2 in to a tower defense game if they are given the chance and lots of tanks is a way to do that. It's the opposite actually, the "turtly" aspect of mech is the consequence of how weak Tanks are. But who cares anyway, we'll probably never have a proper mech outside of TvT, not only because SC2 developers hate/despite the Tank, but also because it doesn't match the clichés about what is supposed to be "entertaining;" people are just too accustomed to the "fast & furious" side of SC2, and when things don't involve flashy Marine splits or green goo all over the screen they're often labelled as "boring," as if games like this, this or this didn't have their own tension and interest.
Couldnt agree more.
I played BW with friends on and off since 2002, and started watching the competitive scene in 2008. What really drawed me to terran was how the race was played and, of course, Flash. After sc2 came out it took me about 6 months to accept that terran didnt work like that at all anymore, and Im actually fine with bio being everywhere and that sc2 is not and will never be BW.
I also think the game design has several flaws, but I can still believe in starcraft2. My main issue though, is the way protoss and to a certain extent, zerg is made. Why all this a-moving nonsense? (yes im exaggerating) Why does every unit need an ability? Why does everything in this game need INSANE amounts of DPS? Well, now I started whining about design flaws again..
My issue really lies in the fact that although I feel terran is weak, especially below elite level, it is a pretty good designed race on paper. Put in context with how P and Z is designed, its just terrible. But I think terran is designed better than those, and I would like to see P and Z changed to operate more like terran (obviously with differences as was in bw, but the concept of it all). But alas, we will, in the future, see terran move more towards how P and Z operates, and the game will move away from what I like with it.
Sorry that this post almost makes no sense and is very messily written, hope I got my point across somehow.
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On July 26 2013 02:54 imEnex wrote:
Lol @ people saying terran is op
I am not, in any way saying terran as a race is OP right now. I think they have been, throughout the history of SC2, the strongest race, but that stopped being true toward the end of WOL and I would even say Terran is the weakest race right now.
I AM however saying that the Marine has ALWAYS been the single best unit in the game for a variety of reasons. And the combination of the marine with ANYTHING ELSE is problematic, which is why balancing the Terran race becomes very hard.
Terran moreso than any other race has a huge advantage in low-econ situations due to the power and flexibility of this one unit. While that power wanes slightly in high-econ situations, it is still completely workable, and that makes for a non-satisfying racial identity IMO.
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On July 26 2013 03:00 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 02:59 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:39 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:16 woopr wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Blizzard should make tanks 2 supply at least as a first step. Thats just what we need, 40 tanks on 80 supply. I am sure no game will ever become stale or slow with that many tanks. Nothing forces you to nap while your Terran opponent spends 10 minuts building a 5k gas army from 4 Factories. I am just pointing out that everyone hated the stale, no action state that WoL got to. People will try to turn SC2 in to a tower defense game if they are given the chance and lots of tanks is a way to do that. It's the opposite actually, the "turtly" aspect of mech is the consequence of how weak Tanks are. But who cares anyway, we'll probably never have a proper mech outside of TvT, not only because SC2 developers hate/despite the Tank, but also because it doesn't match the clichés about what is supposed to be "entertaining;" people are just too accustomed to the "fast & furious" side of SC2, and when things don't involve flashy Marine splits or green goo all over the screen they're often labelled as "boring," as if games like this, this or this didn't have their own tension and interest. I think the main problem is also that most SC2 players don't get that fact that Mech in BW was hard to play(per everyone who played it) and unforgiving. A lot of people looking for "tank buffs" want to be able to win games when players crash against their wall of tanks and they just watch at the units fall under the never ending fire. Thus is the problem, that even if they did buff mech to the point that is was in BW, a lot fo peopel would say "its not good enough, if I make one mistake, I die" Blizzard would never revert mech to its BW state though.
I am just saying, even if they did, most people wouldn't know because they just assume it would be easier than MMM, but it was never like that.
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On July 26 2013 02:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 02:39 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:21 TheDwf wrote:On July 26 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 02:16 woopr wrote:On July 25 2013 23:10 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 10:20 -_- wrote:
Terran needs mech to buffed PVT. And big time. tbh that would require very specific "buffs", only acceptable change would be some kind of upgrade which gives + damage to shield to mech thors/tanks. Blizzard should make tanks 2 supply at least as a first step. Thats just what we need, 40 tanks on 80 supply. I am sure no game will ever become stale or slow with that many tanks. Nothing forces you to nap while your Terran opponent spends 10 minuts building a 5k gas army from 4 Factories. I am just pointing out that everyone hated the stale, no action state that WoL got to. People will try to turn SC2 in to a tower defense game if they are given the chance and lots of tanks is a way to do that. It's the opposite actually, the "turtly" aspect of mech is the consequence of how weak Tanks are. But who cares anyway, we'll probably never have a proper mech outside of TvT, not only because SC2 developers hate/despite the Tank, but also because it doesn't match the clichés about what is supposed to be "entertaining;" people are just too accustomed to the "fast & furious" side of SC2, and when things don't involve flashy Marine splits or green goo all over the screen they're often labelled as "boring," as if games like this, this or this didn't have their own tension and interest. I think the main problem is also that most SC2 players don't get that fact that Mech in BW was hard to play(per everyone who played it) and unforgiving. A lot of people looking for "tank buffs" want to be able to win games when players crash against their wall of tanks and they just watch at the units fall under the never ending fire. Thus is the problem, that even if they did buff mech to the point that is was in BW, a lot fo peopel would say "its not good enough, if I make one mistake, I die"
I actually agree with this sentiment a lot and that's what makes me really sad about SC2 Terran.
Mech was hard as hell to make work, and watching good players use it felt completely OP and satisfying at the same time. For me, the best part was you could see them squeezing every unit, every position, every little aspect for all it is worth.
You couldn't just throw a mech army together and make it work, you had to have a fucking orchestra playing the same note, a whirlwind of absolute order.
And the best part was watching people defeat it. Because you didn't just run in and explode a few banelings and the mech army evaporates, you had to squeeze YOUR whole army for everything IT is worth.
Anything involving BW mech felt like watching a knife fight where people are rolling around back and forth, you know someone is going to get their throat slit, but you have no idea who it's going to be until it's already over... GOD I miss BW mech, it really was the best part of that game IMO.
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Pretty small sample size, but the games that you did pull were pretty top quality tournaments so I know the data is good. I just wish the volume of samples pulled were higher, most likely outside of your control.
Regardless, very nice!
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EPT
