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On June 19 2013 04:53 BlueFlames wrote:Are you shitting me ... people thank Blizzard? If Blizzards game-developers were as bad as their E-sports division they would be out of business by now. Blizzards decision surrounding the SC2 scene were horrible and bad for almost anyone involved. The only reason WCS was not a disaster is because of ESL/OGN/Gom. If the incompetent people at Blizzard keep fucking up the SC2 scene like they did the past couple of weeks, there will be a lot of people that could lose their jobs. Lets sum up the greate things WCS gave the SC2-community. - Messing up the entire NA-scene. Not only did they fuck over the players, but they seemed to not care about NASL almost having to leave the SC2 scene for good. Lets not mention hindering MLG at producing at what they are good at. Tournaments that gave NA-players a chance and brought the spotlight of the whole SC-2 scene on NA. At this point i miss a good weekend tournament by MLG. I want Dreamhack weekends and i want MLG weekends again. - Deciding on a WCS-format a few weeks before the product had to be ready, screwing over every organisation producing it, especially ESL who were the first to start the league i think. ESL did a good job, but i dont think the working conditions for them were really that good. - No IEM events in a long time. A tournament that also gives regions and countries a chance that arent that big yet and that triy to actively promote regional players. - Messing with the free market in korea by enforcing two corporations to work together. If not for Blizzard Gom would probably be dead and OGN and KESPA would be running the show. Blizzards constant messing in this matter boggles my mind. My thoughts are a bit unorganised at the momement, but i think everyone knows that the sc2-scene was at a reasonably good spot before WSC. Blizzard came in and fucked up big time. So please for the love of god thank the companies that were interested in supporting e-sports and the starcraft community all the years blizzard ignored it and thank the companies that keep trying to support e-sports and the sc2-scene, despite Blizzard forcefully trying to "help" them.
some good points here.
the over all prize money is going to go down substantially because Blizzard has snuffed out any kind of grass roots tourney scene possibilities with rules and more rules.
looks like Idra and Stephano are quitting at just the right time.
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On June 19 2013 09:20 Gorribal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 02:10 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Crossposting this from Reddit
So here's my personal opinion on this based on what I know of the situation of the last few months.
This is a good thing for an awful lot of reasons, but I think what most people aren't going to grasp is how good it is for MLG. The preconception is that WCS is a bag of money on a plate to any organization that gets it and holy shit is that completely inaccurate. WCS is a massive resource drain on any organization that hosts it. Blizzard do not in fact give you all the money you could ever need to run the event and MLG was put in a ridiculously difficult position to recoup costs because they had to host at an EU-unfriendly time. So you lock out your biggest audience by default and are then expected to recoup via sponsorship and ad revenue? What? The amount of money MLG had to spend with no possibility of return to run WCS was outrageous. More to the point, if you think MLG actually fought to get WCS you're WAAAAAYYY off. It was very much the other way around. Blizzard strategy involved having MLG do the event, Blizzard pushed for it. MLG was reluctant to take the event as they wanted to focus on what they're good at, their regular live Pro Circuit tournaments. They were pressured by Blizzard to take on WCS. NASL was shut out in the process.
As much hate as MLG gets, they didn't actually make that many mistakes outside of the dreadful qualifiers, they were simply put in a tough spot and had the misfortune of not being ESL. ESL has far more experience running this kind of regular online content and they happen to have a bit more of a laid-back image which lets them pull stuff like Carmac in a bee-suit, White-ra as a bartender, a live final in an abandoned sauna etc. Not only that but foreigners were actually able to compete to a reasonable degree there and the storylines came from that, as opposed to the stomping that occurred in the RO32 in WCS America. MLG got saddled with the consequences of Blizzards decision not to region-lock in the worst possible way and for some reason were blamed for it. Some people might think Blizzard kicked MLG out. I'm sure that's a nice narrative for the hivemind but nope, try the other way around.
You wanna know why MLG announced Anaheim so late, why the format is the way it is and why the prizepool isn't as large? WCS. WCS was the damn albatross around the neck of MLG. They weren't given an opportunity, they were given a burden. WCS wreaked havoc on the American scene, derailing NASL and negatively impacting MLGs actual events which have been the cornerstone of the US competitive scene since Starcraft 2 launched. Now it seems like some of those wrongs will finally be righted.
NASL is in a better position to produce the kind of format that WCS demands. They have more experience, 2 casting teams, the production crew and the facilities to do that daily content. It's what NASL are. NASL live finals are hardly the best things in the world, more often than not lack-luster, it's not their speciality. Their speciality is that daily show and the supporting content that is created around it. I honestly doubt we'll see a big leap in viewers. As much as its the popular opinion to suggest that less popular casters drag the viewer count down significantly it's really not the case at all. The lack of EU audience is what kills WCS America and it always will if it continues at that timeslot.
Anyway, I'm glad MLG can get back to doing what they do best and what they've always wanted to do. I've been behind that curtain and I saw how hard they worked on WCS America but it was abundantly clear that its not their biggest strength. There's nothing quite like an MLG crowd and hopefully WCS will not affect future MLG live events in the way it's affected Anaheim. I just want to respond to that last portion: I love Axeltoss solo casting, but the dual cast with Axslav is absolutely terrible (I find, some people enjoy it but me and others don't). Bad time for EU you say? The GSL and WCS KR were/are around 1-5 am in the Americas, and during the working day for Europe. They get plenty of viewers. This whole timeslot business only matters to a casual audience that is just looking for something entertaining at the time, but maybe that's WCS America's problem, the skill (especially of Challenger League) is so low it doesn't have the dedicated fanbase willing to watch it no matter the time. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that maybe for people like you casters don't matter too much, but dare I say for the majority of StarCraft viewers they matter a whole damn lot. Just look at heavily moderated WCS America Twitch chat or Proleague Twitch chat for evidence of that. Plenty of people risk being banned to say they don't like the casters and new ones should be hired. EDIT: And just to add to my last statement, google Tastosis. Or even look at the videos produced of Wolf's hair comments. The GomTV casters are very popular.
Actually, no you're pretty incorrect in your timeslot response. Gom's casts come on usually right around breakfast time in the UK and other Western countries of Europe, which is why TB, Rotterdam, and Apollo are always giving shit to American casters when they're in Europe for their convenient Gomfast. That would be pretty nice, wouldn't it? Pretty much perfect time to watch some SC2. The VAST majority of Gom's casting audience on the English stream is European when it's live. That has been said by Artosis and Tasteless before, and I'm sure if you watch GSL as much as many people here, you can remember that.
Moreover, Gom's viewership numbers on the livestream aren't that good in the English streaming department except for later in the tournament. They're good, thanks to the Europeans, but not great. They don't have to be. The VODs are fiended over, and the Korean stream gets enough viewers that they don't have to struggle for more viewership.
In America, Americans are the only ones watching the stream, really. It's a horrible timeslot for Europeans, and the Koreans mostly don't understand it nor do they care. Americans and Europeans both don't watch a cast if it's at 3:00 A.M. in the morning...people have lives. The fact of it is, most people who watch SC2 ARE casual observers compared to the vast majority of TL.net-izens. They don't want to stay up that late to watch the American WCS, they'd rather watch theirs.
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On June 19 2013 07:51 KelianQatar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 06:50 Integra wrote:
Thank god, great news for NASL! I can't express how aweme this announcment is. You have no idea if WCS-AM will get better or worse next season, for example WCS-KR has BO1s LOL
I have plenty ideas regarding of as why it would be better actually O_o
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On June 19 2013 09:32 lamprey1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 04:53 BlueFlames wrote:On June 19 2013 04:04 Empirimancer wrote:
Oh thank Blizzard!
Are you shitting me ... people thank Blizzard? If Blizzards game-developers were as bad as their E-sports division they would be out of business by now. Blizzards decision surrounding the SC2 scene were horrible and bad for almost anyone involved. The only reason WCS was not a disaster is because of ESL/OGN/Gom. If the incompetent people at Blizzard keep fucking up the SC2 scene like they did the past couple of weeks, there will be a lot of people that could lose their jobs. Lets sum up the greate things WCS gave the SC2-community. - Messing up the entire NA-scene. Not only did they fuck over the players, but they seemed to not care about NASL almost having to leave the SC2 scene for good. Lets not mention hindering MLG at producing at what they are good at. Tournaments that gave NA-players a chance and brought the spotlight of the whole SC-2 scene on NA. At this point i miss a good weekend tournament by MLG. I want Dreamhack weekends and i want MLG weekends again. - Deciding on a WCS-format a few weeks before the product had to be ready, screwing over every organisation producing it, especially ESL who were the first to start the league i think. ESL did a good job, but i dont think the working conditions for them were really that good. - No IEM events in a long time. A tournament that also gives regions and countries a chance that arent that big yet and that triy to actively promote regional players. - Messing with the free market in korea by enforcing two corporations to work together. If not for Blizzard Gom would probably be dead and OGN and KESPA would be running the show. Blizzards constant messing in this matter boggles my mind. My thoughts are a bit unorganised at the momement, but i think everyone knows that the sc2-scene was at a reasonably good spot before WSC. Blizzard came in and fucked up big time. So please for the love of god thank the companies that were interested in supporting e-sports and the starcraft community all the years blizzard ignored it and thank the companies that keep trying to support e-sports and the sc2-scene, despite Blizzard forcefully trying to "help" them. some good points here. the over all prize money is going to go down substantially because Blizzard has snuffed out any kind of grass roots tourney scene possibilities with rules and more rules. looks like Idra and Stephano are quitting at just the right time.
What good points? I responded to them all on the last page. Suggesting that somehow not having GOM and that the lack of IEMs has anything to do with WCS is silly not to mention the fact that NA never had a real scene to begin with and that this lack of prep time didn't seem to stop EU from being really good.
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Awesome! I was hoping NASL was not going to fade away. Show 'em what you got!
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Finally. MLG can go back to run big weekend shows and NASL can deliver another amazing daily tournament. So far everyone wins. I doubt there will be more viewers though, the timeslot is terrible for everyone in Europe with some kind of life.
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On June 19 2013 09:20 Gorribal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 02:10 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Crossposting this from Reddit
So here's my personal opinion on this based on what I know of the situation of the last few months.
This is a good thing for an awful lot of reasons, but I think what most people aren't going to grasp is how good it is for MLG. The preconception is that WCS is a bag of money on a plate to any organization that gets it and holy shit is that completely inaccurate. WCS is a massive resource drain on any organization that hosts it. Blizzard do not in fact give you all the money you could ever need to run the event and MLG was put in a ridiculously difficult position to recoup costs because they had to host at an EU-unfriendly time. So you lock out your biggest audience by default and are then expected to recoup via sponsorship and ad revenue? What? The amount of money MLG had to spend with no possibility of return to run WCS was outrageous. More to the point, if you think MLG actually fought to get WCS you're WAAAAAYYY off. It was very much the other way around. Blizzard strategy involved having MLG do the event, Blizzard pushed for it. MLG was reluctant to take the event as they wanted to focus on what they're good at, their regular live Pro Circuit tournaments. They were pressured by Blizzard to take on WCS. NASL was shut out in the process.
As much hate as MLG gets, they didn't actually make that many mistakes outside of the dreadful qualifiers, they were simply put in a tough spot and had the misfortune of not being ESL. ESL has far more experience running this kind of regular online content and they happen to have a bit more of a laid-back image which lets them pull stuff like Carmac in a bee-suit, White-ra as a bartender, a live final in an abandoned sauna etc. Not only that but foreigners were actually able to compete to a reasonable degree there and the storylines came from that, as opposed to the stomping that occurred in the RO32 in WCS America. MLG got saddled with the consequences of Blizzards decision not to region-lock in the worst possible way and for some reason were blamed for it. Some people might think Blizzard kicked MLG out. I'm sure that's a nice narrative for the hivemind but nope, try the other way around.
You wanna know why MLG announced Anaheim so late, why the format is the way it is and why the prizepool isn't as large? WCS. WCS was the damn albatross around the neck of MLG. They weren't given an opportunity, they were given a burden. WCS wreaked havoc on the American scene, derailing NASL and negatively impacting MLGs actual events which have been the cornerstone of the US competitive scene since Starcraft 2 launched. Now it seems like some of those wrongs will finally be righted.
NASL is in a better position to produce the kind of format that WCS demands. They have more experience, 2 casting teams, the production crew and the facilities to do that daily content. It's what NASL are. NASL live finals are hardly the best things in the world, more often than not lack-luster, it's not their speciality. Their speciality is that daily show and the supporting content that is created around it. I honestly doubt we'll see a big leap in viewers. As much as its the popular opinion to suggest that less popular casters drag the viewer count down significantly it's really not the case at all. The lack of EU audience is what kills WCS America and it always will if it continues at that timeslot.
Anyway, I'm glad MLG can get back to doing what they do best and what they've always wanted to do. I've been behind that curtain and I saw how hard they worked on WCS America but it was abundantly clear that its not their biggest strength. There's nothing quite like an MLG crowd and hopefully WCS will not affect future MLG live events in the way it's affected Anaheim. I just want to respond to that last portion: I love Axeltoss solo casting, but the dual cast with Axslav is absolutely terrible (I find, some people enjoy it but me and others don't). Bad time for EU you say? The GSL and WCS KR were/are around 1-5 am in the Americas, and during the working day for Europe. They get plenty of viewers. This whole timeslot business only matters to a casual audience that is just looking for something entertaining at the time, but maybe that's WCS America's problem, the skill (especially of Challenger League) is so low it doesn't have the dedicated fanbase willing to watch it no matter the time. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that maybe for people like you casters don't matter too much, but dare I say for the majority of StarCraft viewers they matter a whole damn lot. Just look at heavily moderated WCS America Twitch chat or Proleague Twitch chat for evidence of that. Plenty of people risk being banned to say they don't like the casters and new ones should be hired. EDIT: And just to add to my last statement, google Tastosis. Or even look at the videos produced of Wolf's hair comments. The GomTV casters are very popular.
Take Gorribal's word for it everybody, he knows better than TB whether timeslots and casters have a significant impact on SC2 tournament viewership.
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On June 19 2013 09:22 Nuclease wrote:
YEEESSSSSSSS
So much better.
I remember Mr. Bitter saying on SotG a couple episodes ago, when asked "Is NASL stopping SC2 content?", he just said, "No, NASL will have...a LOT...of SC2 content coming up. That's all I'll say." He then turned off his camera and left for a meeting hahaha
<3
I don't think he said "a LOT" and I don't think he even hinted in that direction. The word had always been that something good/"exciting" was coming down the pipes regarding SC2/NASL content, though, but I don't think any of us knew whether it was going to be some small'ish one-off tournaments or showmatches or some thing more.
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On June 19 2013 07:34 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 01:51 Artisane wrote:
Hell Yeah! My wife actually jumped up and down when I told her this.
You guys are NASL have NO idea how much she hated watching the MLG WCS stream. Can I trade my wife for yours? :D My wife would only jump up and down if I told her I stopped following Sc2 tournaments and streams :D
I don't mean to sound judgmental, but maybe that's why she wants you to stop following SC2 tournaments and streams?  Don't even joke about wanting to swap her with anyone else - she's your wife! (I'm half teasing you and half serious  )
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Thank god, I couldn't stand watching WCS America.... the MLG casters were unbearable and it did prompt me to simply not bother watching the tournament because watching on mute just isn't acceptable for me.
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NASL NASL NASL!
And of course Blizzard!!!!!
So happy XD
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Given that the arguments for giving it to MLG were to build up to big finals events, to then do a lightweight NASL format in an office building was a big old fail. NASL and IPL had this type of content locked down before all this came about, so this can only be a good thing. Rotti must be a very happy puppy right now. 
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On June 19 2013 09:32 lamprey1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 04:53 BlueFlames wrote:On June 19 2013 04:04 Empirimancer wrote:
Oh thank Blizzard!
Are you shitting me ... people thank Blizzard? If Blizzards game-developers were as bad as their E-sports division they would be out of business by now. Blizzards decision surrounding the SC2 scene were horrible and bad for almost anyone involved. The only reason WCS was not a disaster is because of ESL/OGN/Gom. If the incompetent people at Blizzard keep fucking up the SC2 scene like they did the past couple of weeks, there will be a lot of people that could lose their jobs. Lets sum up the greate things WCS gave the SC2-community. - Messing up the entire NA-scene. Not only did they fuck over the players, but they seemed to not care about NASL almost having to leave the SC2 scene for good. Lets not mention hindering MLG at producing at what they are good at. Tournaments that gave NA-players a chance and brought the spotlight of the whole SC-2 scene on NA. At this point i miss a good weekend tournament by MLG. I want Dreamhack weekends and i want MLG weekends again. - Deciding on a WCS-format a few weeks before the product had to be ready, screwing over every organisation producing it, especially ESL who were the first to start the league i think. ESL did a good job, but i dont think the working conditions for them were really that good. - No IEM events in a long time. A tournament that also gives regions and countries a chance that arent that big yet and that triy to actively promote regional players. - Messing with the free market in korea by enforcing two corporations to work together. If not for Blizzard Gom would probably be dead and OGN and KESPA would be running the show. Blizzards constant messing in this matter boggles my mind. My thoughts are a bit unorganised at the momement, but i think everyone knows that the sc2-scene was at a reasonably good spot before WSC. Blizzard came in and fucked up big time. So please for the love of god thank the companies that were interested in supporting e-sports and the starcraft community all the years blizzard ignored it and thank the companies that keep trying to support e-sports and the sc2-scene, despite Blizzard forcefully trying to "help" them. some good points here. the over all prize money is going to go down substantially because Blizzard has snuffed out any kind of grass roots tourney scene possibilities with rules and more rules. looks like Idra and Stephano are quitting at just the right time.
I totally forgot about that point. Not that giving Gom a monopoly for the first 2 years was a good thing to begin with, but it was better than what we have now.
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ooohh yeah thats the announcment i've been waiting for!
kinda was expecting this, or at least hoping for this i think they will do a much better job than mlg did and it definitly will be better for mlg to focus on their championship events!
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Who´s casting for NASL atm?
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AWESOME NEWS YAY
so looking forward to WCS season 2
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I like how TB writes that it was more like Blizzard putting a gun to MLGs head and said: "Make this tournament! And you HAVE to include koreans!". That does not make *any* sense, especially if NASL would actually want to run the WCS. Or are they just keen to burn some money?
Blizzard provided most (if not all) of the money, flew the players over, had to negotiate with atleast four different companies and they want more people *buying* the game (viewership and exposure in growing markets, they don't care about sonsors).
In addition MLG did only have to host ONE online qualifier and the offline event was played in their office rooms which they pay for anyway.
Now, SC2 is not big in the korean market, the EU/US events get the highest amount of viewers, even if no korean participates. I think, from a tournament organisators point, it would make more sense to push for some koreans in "your" region, to advertise with a big name. It would make more sense to force mostly online no region lock play (And whoever thinks we will get any offline daily event is just delusional. WCS will STAY online in the west).
They could have said no, we will just produce Tier 1 like events, but maybe their egos got too big and they thought that as somekind premium esport brand in the US, it had to be them. In the end, they screwed up big time, not because blizzard, no, because of their own incompetence.
Look at the WCS finals or the current Season 2 in korea. Completely utter shit events. Blizzards fault? I would say no, its two rival broadcasting companies trying to fuck each other over as much as possible. They even changed the format in the middle of WCS, for one region only (and it will most likely switch back again in season 3).
I guess WCS will ultimately fail if they don't concentrate on improving the coordination with the broadcasters or take matters in their own hands. Afterall, IF you see some SC2 and all you see is koreans roflstomping each other because the only local heroes are eliminated alltogether, casted in some office with no excitement (or in an empty studio with a goddam DJ in your back.. WTF Gom?), you would not think "Hey, that looks great, lets buy this!". You would say "Nah, lets switch channel" and quit watching.
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Canada16217 Posts
On June 19 2013 18:40 Daswollvieh wrote:
Who´s casting for NASL atm?
the sc2 casters that currently work @ NASL are: Gretorp, Frodan, MrBitter, & Rotterdam
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The only reason MLG backed out was because they couldn't figure out how to make money off it. Hopefully NASL will somehow do better, but given the constraints that Blizzard imposes on WCS, who knows ...
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EPT
