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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 17 2013 05:24 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:22 Plexa wrote:On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all. Sometimes the 'fairest' option is not the best option for the viewers. Let's be honest here Plexa, the viewers are going to complain about something, no matter how much you try to appease them. Extended Series is actually better for the viewers than the double series format we had at Blizzcon and IPL and people really hated that shit.
I didn't hear any complaints when people assumed that extended series wasn't going to be present at this MLG, knowing that it was going to be a double elim bracket.
You have to ask yourself whether MLG is a tournament where you want the best player to win, or if you want the viewers to have the best possible viewing experience. To have the best player win I would argue in defense of extended series, but I would argue that extended series is not the best thing for viewers.
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On June 17 2013 05:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:24 Shikyo wrote:On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all. Um, yeah? Double elimination = lose 2 series. If you win all until finals you need to lose 2 series. Otherwise it's not double elimination. Except people would hate that even more than the extended series. This is how MLG compromises. You can't just decide to make the later rounds a single elimination tournament because that would essentially punish a player for winning through the group stages and lower brackets because they're denied the same double elimination that everyone who loses before that gets.
Then you have single elimination, not just some random pile of trash that you call double elimination.
Also I'm not sure what you mean, no one's talking about making later stages single elimination, that's really stupid.
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On June 17 2013 05:27 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2013 05:24 Shikyo wrote:On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all. Um, yeah? Double elimination = lose 2 series. If you win all until finals you need to lose 2 series. Otherwise it's not double elimination. Except people would hate that even more than the extended series. This is how MLG compromises. You can't just decide to make the later rounds a single elimination tournament because that would essentially punish a player for winning through the group stages and lower brackets because they're denied the same double elimination that everyone who loses before that gets. Then you have single elimination, not just some random pile of trash that you call double elimination.
I personally would be fine with that, but the vast majority of viewers don't want a single elimination super tournament. When GoM did it people hated it, and I don't think it's necessarily fair to the players either.
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Well its double elim, and frankly extended series makes more sense for double elim. So hate on double elim if you don't like this.
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Double elimination is a pretty bad format, extended series or no. I'm enjoying the Dreamhack format right now but I'd like to see a tournament try out Swiss. 
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On June 17 2013 05:26 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2013 05:22 Plexa wrote:On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all. Sometimes the 'fairest' option is not the best option for the viewers. Let's be honest here Plexa, the viewers are going to complain about something, no matter how much you try to appease them. Extended Series is actually better for the viewers than the double series format we had at Blizzcon and IPL and people really hated that shit. I didn't hear any complaints when people assumed that extended series wasn't going to be present at this MLG, knowing that it was going to be a double elim bracket. You have to ask yourself whether MLG is a tournament where you want the best player to win, or if you want the viewers to have the best possible viewing experience. To have the best player win I would argue in defense of extended series, but I would argue that extended series is not the best thing for viewers.
Well then you should be making an argument for just changing MLG to a single elimination tournament. I'd personally be ok with that, but as long as MLG continues to do double elimination the extended series wont go anywhere, I don't understand how other people don't understand that.
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On June 17 2013 05:28 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:27 Shikyo wrote:On June 17 2013 05:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2013 05:24 Shikyo wrote:On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all. Um, yeah? Double elimination = lose 2 series. If you win all until finals you need to lose 2 series. Otherwise it's not double elimination. Except people would hate that even more than the extended series. This is how MLG compromises. You can't just decide to make the later rounds a single elimination tournament because that would essentially punish a player for winning through the group stages and lower brackets because they're denied the same double elimination that everyone who loses before that gets. Then you have single elimination, not just some random pile of trash that you call double elimination. I personally would be fine with that, but the vast majority of viewers don't want a single elimination super tournament. When GoM did it people hated it, and I don't think it's necessarily fair to the players either.
I'm not sure if you're just reading or what? The problem with double elimination and extended series is that it makes it so that it matters if it was just -that specific player- you played against to get dropped down. If it wasn't, it's normal double elimination.
If they had "extended series" against everyone no matter if they played against each other before, using the results of the game where they dropped down, I'd have no issues, I think that'd be fine.
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I prefer single elimination brackets a bit more than -any- double elim. Losing (and winning) actually feels like something then.
As for the extended series, I think we all know that it's silly. I wouldn't even argue that extended series makes it more fair. If someone cannot win another series versus the player after having beat them once, then clearly their win earlier on didn't mean that much. Also since anyone else would have to play the standard series versus them, it's stupid.
And good mod note.
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On June 17 2013 05:27 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2013 05:24 Shikyo wrote:On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all. Um, yeah? Double elimination = lose 2 series. If you win all until finals you need to lose 2 series. Otherwise it's not double elimination. Except people would hate that even more than the extended series. This is how MLG compromises. You can't just decide to make the later rounds a single elimination tournament because that would essentially punish a player for winning through the group stages and lower brackets because they're denied the same double elimination that everyone who loses before that gets. Then you have single elimination, not just some random pile of trash that you call double elimination. Also I'm not sure what you mean, no one's talking about making later stages single elimination, that's really stupid.
People that want double elimination in the lower bracket but hate having the extended series in the championship bracket are essentially asking for that. Which I agree IS a stupid idea.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I added a note to the OP because I don't think everyone completely understands the format.
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On June 17 2013 05:22 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all. Sometimes the 'fairest' option is not the best option for the viewers.
well what about the integrity of the competition? i swear mlg never cares if its a fair tournament.
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I've always been for extended series
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On June 17 2013 05:33 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2013 05:27 Shikyo wrote:On June 17 2013 05:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2013 05:24 Shikyo wrote:On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all. Um, yeah? Double elimination = lose 2 series. If you win all until finals you need to lose 2 series. Otherwise it's not double elimination. Except people would hate that even more than the extended series. This is how MLG compromises. You can't just decide to make the later rounds a single elimination tournament because that would essentially punish a player for winning through the group stages and lower brackets because they're denied the same double elimination that everyone who loses before that gets. Then you have single elimination, not just some random pile of trash that you call double elimination. I personally would be fine with that, but the vast majority of viewers don't want a single elimination super tournament. When GoM did it people hated it, and I don't think it's necessarily fair to the players either. I'm not sure if you're just reading or what? The problem with double elimination and extended series is that it makes it so that it matters if it was just -that specific player- you played against to get dropped down. If it wasn't, it's normal double elimination. If they had "extended series" against everyone no matter if they played against each other before, using the results of the game where they dropped down, I'd have no issues, I think that'd be fine.
I actually get what you're complaining about, but that's not what a majority of people complain about when it comes to the extended series from what I've experienced over the years.
People complain about the advantage it gives the player in the upper bracket, especially when it's a fan favorite that loses in the Winner's semis. Its that scenario that I see the majority of extended series hate come out, but that's just been my experience with it.
Personally, my gripe with the extended series is similar to yours. I feel like if you're going to do a single elimination tournament do it single elim, if you're going to do a double elimination tournament, do it double elim with the double series finals. That's how I'd do it.
People hated it at IPL4 when aLive won the second series when he lost the first and hate watching their favorite player get knocked out of a tournament to cheese builds and don't get a second chance, I see people ALWAYS complaining regardless of what format tournaments use.
Why the extended series is any different in that regard is what confuses me.
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On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all.
I'm a viewer and I don't want double elimination, not to mention extended series which has no place in esports. Also, two series finals is the only way to do true double elimination.
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Hmm reading everything it's not even as bad as I thought, just really confusing. This formation also is much better than it used to be.
The adjustment I'd make would be such that you don't play an initial Bo3 if you haven't played each other yet, but instead will just use the Bo3 result in the game that dropped the losers' bracket player to the losers' bracket.
For example, Flash plays Jaedong in the winners' bracket and loses 2-1 then plays against Innovation in the semis. It should just pick off from that 2-1 and be a Bo7, instead of them first playing a Bo3 among each other and then making that into a Bo7. This is exactly what would happen if the players had played against each other earlier.
As it is right now, it slightly favors the player coming into semis from the losers' bracket if they haven't played against each other earlier.
edit: changed to slightly because it's not that much
No actually I'd just change it the other way around and make it how it is when the players haven't played against each other no matter what.
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I love the MOD edit in the Original Post. How good is a fucking rule if they do everything in their power to make sure that rule doesn't get applied in the Grand Finals Match because it ruins it? So the rule has the potential of completely fucking over the Grand Finals and instead of removing the rule which 99% of organizations would do, MLG decides to continue head strong and create a new format and new rules to make sure the rule they alone created doesn't fuck over the Grand Finals.
Unbelievable man. UN-fucking-believable. Does this thing get WCS points? Because it shouldn't.
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Canada456 Posts
On June 17 2013 05:22 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:
Of course it's back guys, this is how they do double elimination.
Would you all rather have traditional double elimination where the person coming from the lower bracket has to win two series to win the finals?
It's double elimination, viewers want double elimination. This is part of what makes double elimination what it is. I don't understand the whining about it at all. Sometimes the 'fairest' option is not the best option for the viewers.
Speaking mostly for myself as a viewer, I'd rather have the option where two players can't go equal on games but because of the order of the games one player is declared the victor.
Type of thing where you could end up with...
"Winner of MLG summerwhatever 2013, X, and in second place with a record of 4-4 over the weekend over the winner, Y!"
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Russian Federation325 Posts
I fail to see what is the problem with double elimination brackets? Extended series, couple wins advantage in finals, whatever.
It looks much more reasonable to me than meaningless matches in group stages on Dreamhack. GSL have perfectly fair and simple group stage, it's like reinventing the wheel and making it square.
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Really surprised they brought this back after all the controversy for the last 3 years. Sometimes I really wonder about MLG decision making.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
Gargh, stop mucking with the format and various other things.
I do enjoy MLGs but more for the atmosphere there than a lot of other factors. I thought they had it right with the two streams with separate matches and my beloved first-person streams, so glorious.
Since then I've found myself not enjoying a lot of aspects of the production that they keep tweaking. Picture in picture is a nice addition, but having a triple monitor setup watching MC vs Stephano from the casters view in the middle, and MC and Stephano's FP on either side was amazing. Wish they'd bring that back
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EPT
