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Wait - they are telling Karont3 that they cannot add players to their roster who were part of a team that participated in the qualifiers?
Yet Mouz has added Lucifron and Vortix to their roster, both of whom were part of a team that participated in the qualifiers (specifically, Karont3).
This is seriously inconsistent. There went any legitimacy ATC had.
Edit:
Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Adding players to the Karont3 squad
Although it is not uncommon to lock rosters in tournaments and sports we were okay with Karont3 adding unsigned or teamless players to their official roster mid-season.
The official ATC rules actually state that you can't change your roster ("A team roster is fix and can´t be changed during a season. Exceptions can only made by an admin"), so we were being generous toward Karont3 in this regard.
Would anyone be willing to add some insight on the discussions about Mouz adding players to their roster in the middle of the season? Specifically, players who had been part of another team participating in the ATC (since those are the grounds which the parent post claims were cited as to why other players Karont3 wanted to bring in were rejected). Were objections raised and if so, how were they resolved?
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On June 12 2013 21:56 SinCitta wrote:
Official statement announced (during the ATC broadcast) for today evening.
I would just stop the speculation until we have that official statement to clarify the situation.
Right now we just dont know enough.
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This smells like sh**. Let them play ! Why kick them out???
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It´s a sad day for the Acer TeamStory Cup powered by Intel. We have to announce the disqualification of Karont3 E-Sport Club. This step was extremely hard for us, but there was no other possible solution in our mind.
What happened?
Karont3 E-Sport Club closed his doors and disbandend his Starcraft 2 Squad. The remaining Players were ViPro and LoLvsxD. Additional the joker Socke also remains. 3 Players left, 1 of them plays for Team Alternate, 2 without any team, searching for an new home.
Our idea and our solution for the Acer TeamStory Cup is written in the name. We desire a Teamleague. We want wars with lesser known players, nice comebacks with Ace players backed up by team spirit. This is the reason why we made a best-of-9 format. Our target was to get teams with big and deep rosters. At any point in time, we tried to avoid mix teams. We don´t want any "Allstar"-Parties. We need teams, no rosters. Teams for our TeamStory Cup.
Sadly, Karont3 isn´t that team anymore. It´s no team anymore, it´s a roster of pro-players, searching for a new home. We can´t continue with Karont3 cause it fit´s not in our understanding of a professional team.
What were our option?
Just continue with just the remaining players.
This option is contra productive to our understanding of a team. We need at least 4 players for a team-cup, the remaining won´t have them, it´s a too small roster nor it´s a team anymore.
Add to the remaining players new ones.
So we do not want any mix teams - but we accept a roster of players to play in a "mixed"-Team? This can´t be the aim of a team league. This wouldn´t be a team. Also this wouldn´t be fair for all teams in the league.
Add the manager to the player-roster.
This is a solution we discussed way more often. Would this be the best solution? Just add the manager to the roster and there are 4 "players" left. But after we thought about this scenario, what happens when one of the players leave this roster (Like ViPro who´s playing for coL now, yes we were informed about this step before!). What´s up if more players are leaving, to get a contract and to get paid? You have to make sure, Vipro and LoLvsxD are pros and they want a team. Yes a team - no roster to play in a team league. We end up with a mixed roster of players.
We spoke about this topic intern and ofc with all other teams in the league as well. We didn´t kick just anyone. We tried and thought about it all the way and spend a lot of hours to let ex-K3 players play in our Acer TeamStory Cup any longer. But with the leave of viPro, LoLvsxD's "team-search" and Socke as the joker, without any company - this roster of ex-Karont3 isn´t Karont3 E-Sports Club anymore.
We are sad and don´t like this outcome. We would like to say a big sorry especially to the fans and viewers. They played a great season, they are pretty well players and humans. It´s our fault to bring that statement way too late. Blame us for being not that fast, but we tried and thought about so many ways to go on with Karont3. In the end, we think this is the only way.
Farewell, Karont3 E-Sport Club, Ryo, ViPro, LoLvsxD and Socke as their joker.
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Thanks for the explanation Take, I have added your post to the OP.
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On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
It´s a sad day for the Acer TeamStory Cup powered by Intel. We have to announce the disqualification of Karont3 E-Sport Club. This step was extremely hard for us, but there was no other possible solution in our mind.
What happened?
Karont3 E-Sport Club closed his doors and disbandend his Starcraft 2 Squad. The remaining Players were ViPro and LoLvsxD. Additional the joker Socke also remains. 3 Players left, 1 of them plays for Team Alternate, 2 without any team, searching for an new home.
Our idea and our solution for the Acer TeamStory Cup is written in the name. We desire a Teamleague. We want wars with lesser known players, nice comebacks with Ace players backed up by team spirit. This is the reason why we made a best-of-9 format. Our target was to get teams with big and deep rosters. At any point in time, we tried to avoid mix teams. We don´t want any "Allstar"-Parties. We need teams, no rosters. Teams for our TeamStory Cup.
Sadly, Karont3 isn´t that team anymore. It´s no team anymore, it´s a roster of pro-players, searching for a new home. We can´t continue with Karont3 cause it fit´s not in our understanding of a professional team.
What were our option?
Just continue with just the remaining players.
This option is contra productive to our understanding of a team. We need at least 4 players for a team-cup, the remaining won´t have them, it´s a too small roster nor it´s a team anymore.
Add to the remaining players new ones.
So we do not want any mix teams - but we accept a roster of players to play in a "mixed"-Team? This can´t be the aim of a team league. This wouldn´t be a team. Also this wouldn´t be fair for all teams in the league.
Add the manager to the player-roster.
This is a solution we discussed way more often. Would this be the best solution? Just add the manager to the roster and there are 4 "players" left. But after we thought about this scenario, what happens when one of the players leave this roster (Like ViPro who´s playing for coL now, yes we were informed about this step before!). What´s up if more players are leaving, to get a contract and to get paid? You have to make sure, Vipro and LoLvsxD are pros and they want a team. Yes a team - no roster to play in a team league. We end up with a mixed roster of players.
We spoke about this topic intern and ofc with all other teams in the league as well. We didn´t kick just anyone. We tried and thought about it all the way and spend a lot of hours to let ex-K3 players play in our Acer TeamStory Cup any longer. But with the leave of viPro, LoLvsxD's "team-search" and Socke as the joker, without any company - this roster of ex-Karont3 isn´t Karont3 E-Sports Club anymore.
We are sad and don´t like this outcome. We would like to say a big sorry especially to the fans and viewers. They played a great season, they are pretty well players and humans. It´s our fault to bring that statement way too late. Blame us for being not that fast, but we tried and thought about so many ways to go on with Karont3. In the end, we think this is the only way.
Farewell, Karont3 E-Sport Club, Ryo, ViPro, LoLvsxD and Socke as their joker.
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
Good response, unfortunate situation, but maybe the only way it could have gone.
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Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay..
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France7248 Posts
On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
old score won't be changed?
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I don't know...all that "ideal team" justification is quite fade for disqualifying the ranked 2 team of the league. It's no good for little e-sport team, that are not sustainable enough. Sad.
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On June 13 2013 01:32 PetitCop wrote:
I don't know...all that "ideal team" justification is quite fade for disqualifying the ranked 2 team of the league. It's no good for little e-sport team, that are not sustainable enough. Sad.
I think when all the players from K3 are not actually in K3 team is a good justicifation.
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On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay..
Upon further review, TakeTV changed their minds and did not want a group of all stars. Done.
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On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
i really dont care about all the justification, but this is just plain unfair. all Karont3 games should be nullified.
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On June 13 2013 01:43 kraut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
i really dont care about all the justification, but this is just plain unfair. all Karont3 games should be nullified.
Why all the games? Just the games where there were more than 1 joker.
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On June 12 2013 23:51 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 23:41 StarStruck wrote:On June 12 2013 23:38 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On June 12 2013 23:34 StarStruck wrote:On June 12 2013 23:31 Serimek wrote:On June 12 2013 23:27 SinCitta wrote:
MVP could pick a third a third seasonal revive, too. I think they handle the Karont3 issue by pretending they never participated (wins/losses against them deleted, no transfer period, no revives used against them) I hope there'll be a confirmation of this. TaKe need to communicate about the rule to give back to this league the credibilty it deserves (and so that we can update Liquipedia :p ) To be honest it never really had any credibility to begin with for me anyway. We've seen several teams/sponsors hold their own team leagues already. It's great that they're doing 19 weeks of this for the regular season but I don't think anyone would give much thought to it at the end of the day compared to a lot of other things. On that note, was there ever any incident of a similar or comparable nature with the EG Master's Cup League? I haven't followed that all too closely but I don't remember any amount of drama beyond the -orb- event. No idea. I've paid very little attention to both. I've seen a few matches here and there, but I haven't gone out of my way to watch a lot of it. There was a teamleague managed by someone that was also a team manager at that time. People wanted to have Empire invited to a qualifier for that league. Empire was considered to be the Top 2 team in Europe. The manager said something like "who the fuck is Empire". Long story short, Empire won the next season of the league including a win against the team of said manager.
lol Okay, so after more poking and prodding (I remember overhearing this from a comment on these very boards) apparently players are allowed to not only play more than once but in certain cases they play upwards to three times even if they lost? What the hell kind of league are you running TaKe? I looked it up for myself and what do you know within the first two weeks we saw YugiOh play TaeJa three times and he lost all of them. You have a rule for no roster changes during the season. You ask the teams to have a roster of at least five players (his post is saying 4 -_-) and the ex-k3 roster has 3. Admin says they can recruit and then goes back on their word even if they were team-less and the Spaniards play this week. Double standards man you guys really have to address this. I find it very hard to believe that you wrote and I quote:
We want wars with lesser known players, nice comebacks with Ace players backed up by team spirit. This is the reason why we made a best-of-9 format. Our target was to get teams with big and deep rosters. At any point in time, we tried to avoid mix teams. We don´t want any "Allstar"-Parties. We need teams, no rosters. Teams for our TeamStory Cup.
How can you say that? ._.
*
It's very unfortunate and if this were to happen to a club like TL/EG this thread would be at least at page 20 by now. The ex-k3 don't have a team or any association to anyone. If you had a rule about teams disbanding mid-season then everyone would be on the same page. I couldn't imagine anything like this happening in WGTour. If you allow teams to play the same guy over and over again... and there is no recruitment allowed... drop the double standards please for our sake. In the interest of competition this is just meh. It would have also been a good way to promote those players without teams. I don't know about you guys. I barely paid any attention to this league prior but if the ex-K3 players were allowed back. I will personally watch ever last match they play. -_-
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On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay..
Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck.
@Plansix : When the boss of the company tells you it's ok, that should be a 100% decision, and then also having them go through a new admin afterwords to tell them it's gg for them is pretty bm.
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double standards - that really says it all
I appreciate your response TaKe, but you just said the exact same things that's been said before, without addressing the real issues
1) The concept of an "ideal team" is bogus - mouz isn't the same team they entered the tourney with, and the players that ENTERED A TOURNAMENT AND WON should be allowed to keep playing!
2) Minimum players is 4, they had 3 and could add 1(Ryo) - that's 4!
3) Saying that someone isn't good enough to participate in your league, insulting them by saying they would embarrass the tourney/team/themselves - you should be ashamed! To disrespect someone like that is ridiculous, especially a situation like this
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On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. @Plansix : When the boss of the company tells you it's ok, that should be a 100% decision, and then also having them go through a new admin afterwords to tell them it's gg for them is pretty bm.
Yeah, I just get tired of hearing the stories of "this guy told me this and when I asked and then later they told me I couldn't" in Esports. It's been a common issue lately and I am just annoyed with the "Well why did you lie to them before?" comments that always come up. Companies can change their mind about ruling(within reason) and when teams are asking for exceptions to rules, they should expect that the answer could change.
Of course, the real solution is for admins to just say "I don't know, give me all the information and I will have to get back to you." It is what I do when clients ask me questions I can't answer. But the "why did you lie" comments are just so petty.
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I wouldn't really call sortof and T-Zain joining those three players an All-Star team either. WW isn't even competing and as for T-Zain I'd say he's around LucifroN's skill level albeit he's on a team already competing. This is just in regards of the dream team concept you were talking about. If there were a rule about a team disbanding and W.O.'s given that was written clearly then there would be no argument. This was very poorly handled. I don't really call one play playing up to three times for a team even though they lost the matches ideal in terms of gamesmanship. It's not very fair. For all we know it could be just one player doing it when in reality a team should only be as good as their weakest player.
On June 13 2013 02:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. @Plansix : When the boss of the company tells you it's ok, that should be a 100% decision, and then also having them go through a new admin afterwords to tell them it's gg for them is pretty bm. Yeah, I just get tired of hearing the stories of "this guy told me this and when I asked and then later they told me I couldn't" in Esports. It's been a common issue lately and I am just annoyed with the "Well why did you lie to them before?" comments that always come up. Companies can change their mind about ruling(within reason) and when teams are asking for exceptions to rules, they should expect that the answer could change. Of course, the real solution is for admins to just say "I don't know, give me all the information and I will have to get back to you." It is what I do when clients ask me questions I can't answer. But the "why did you lie" comments are just so petty.
It would help if you started off with one rule set for every team/player. Sometimes it's best to go straight to the big boss to get an answer.
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On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck.
Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans."
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By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup.
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For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred.
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On June 13 2013 02:22 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans." -- By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup. -- For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred.
Who did Kane play for before he switched to ROOT in the ATC? If you cannot abide by your own rules from the start then I mean come on man. We even had rules for this kind of stuff in WGTour when players switched. If the rule is rosters are frozen for the remainder of the tournament then it should stick. As for the official statement. They should have a rule for teams that disband and that should have been stated clearly to every party involved.
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EPT
